Inconsistency in the Description of the Shadow's Workings

[Elan Tedronai]

ishy? please. The guy got owned thrice by a bumbling shepherder. he came back reincarnated and still does nothing apart from bully moggy and cyndane. LMAO

 

Demy? This guy is a total wuss. Hiding in the corners using proxies. As if it makes a difference. Had a chance to show his worth and got beaten like a dog in the saidin cleansing.

 

@suttree it's not just egwene's characters got dumbed down. It's everyone from emond's field.

 

Heroes given god like powers, people made to look foolish around them and ofcourse legendary bad guys made to look like chumps. It's enough to dampen anything one has build for this series over the last 10 years.

 

After 13 books if the only casualty from the forces of light remains verin then what does that show? Poor effort from jordan.

[ironisles]

ishy? please. The guy got owned thrice by a bumbling shepherder. he came back reincarnated and still does nothing apart from bully moggy and cyndane. LMAO

 

Demy? This guy is a total wuss. Hiding in the corners using proxies. As if it makes a difference. Had a chance to show his worth and got beaten like a dog in the saidin cleansing.

 

@suttree it's not just egwene's characters got dumbed down. It's everyone from emond's field.

 

Heroes given god like powers, people made to look foolish around them and ofcourse legendary bad guys made to look like chumps. It's enough to dampen anything one has build for this series over the last 10 years.

 

After 13 books if the only casualty from the forces of light remains verin then what does that show? Poor effort from jordan.

 

Well.. you got a point with ishy..still Dem as far as we know hasn't screwed up yet.I don't think...

[AquilaInfernus]

Plot Armour

 

Also, the Forsaken are under the impression they will rule should they win... eliminating the motive for wholesale destruction. Not to mention such antics would bring down AS wrath (remember no one can withstand 13xShielders). Also I think the pattern would accommodate such actions by forcing Zen-Rand transformation sooner

[Agitel]

ishy? please. The guy got owned thrice by a bumbling shepherder. he came back reincarnated and still does nothing apart from bully moggy and cyndane. LMAO

 

To be fair to Ishy, Rand was channeling massive amounts of saidin from the Eye of the World in their first confrontation and massive amounts of saidin from Callandor in their third. The second confrontation is just weird, given the odd circumstances and how much the Wheel was controlling that moment. I almost have to assume Ishy couldn't channel in that confrontation. Not to mention the man was half mad. On top of that we add plot armor to Rand because of ta'veren, but that's not the only thing that was going on. It's become a pretty big plot point in the books that direct assaults on Rand, Mat and Perrin tend to go awry because of them being ta'veren.

 

That said, they remain rather incompetent in other ways. There are others they could have attacked, and Jordan kept their activities far too hidden.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahhh, a topic that has been thoroughly discussed.

 

Well, I certainly understand the people who complain that the Forsaken etc. have been pretty stupid so far, and to a point, I can definitely agree. I mean, Graendal was super awesome in beating Rand in tGS/ToM, basically Rand did the only possible thing he could to win, and he still lost. Then when it was time to kill Perrin, she basically did nothing and got deservingly punished.

 

I also agree that the Forsaken could have just balefired Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve and all the "less" important characters but still crucial.

 

However, I think it is unfair to say they have been useless. Complain that we haven't seen them do anything, that is fair enough, however, I think we need to think a bit differently.

 

It seems many people are making the same mistake as Rand and co. have. They are thinking in terms of armies, OP and strength. I think it would be well to remember what Verin said about the battle not being fought how Rand thinks it is.

 

The DO, theoretically, cannot be killed (I believe it is impossible, just as it would be impossible to kill the creator, however, I will leave it open) at least it has no fear of being destroyed. The armies and all the power in the world will be useless if the DO manages to fully enter the pattern. A million channelers (who are not Rand/Dragon Reborn) would be useless against it.

 

Thus, the DO is not "fighting", it is merely preventing Rand from sealing the prison again. As mentioned, there is strong implication that simply killing Rand does not work, that the DO needs Rand alive for the LB to completely break free. So, this is why the DO doesn't much care about what happens in the world, apart from Rand and co.

 

Taking this into account, it is easier to understand the Forsaken. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael did not "conquer" their respective nations at the DO's orders, although the DO certainly didn't DISapprove of it. IT was their own initiative, since that is how they work, in terms of kingdoms and armies. However, the DO didn't really care when they lost their power, since it is not important that he control the world, only prevent them from fighting him.

 

This is evident in "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". As mentioned, the Forsaken etc... do not go round balefiring and killing everyone because that would mean the Light would put aside their differences and rally against the DO. It is intentional that they are kept hidden and ambiguous. So people do not actually believe the Forsaken have even been set free. With regards to the DO's plan, it doesn't want to crush the people, since it can already do that after it has broken free. The DO merely wishes that the people are kept occupied and distracted until it manages to break free. Evident in the "receding" Blight. Tricking the people into believing everything is all good so they do not try and fight against it.

 

IN regards to the Forsaken, I agree that they have been a disappointment, but rather than this being a failure of RJ, this is intentional. We have intentionally been tricked into this, just like the thrid agers have been, which in my mind shows great story-telling. We think like thrid agers. The Forsaken have an incredible reputation through 3000 years of myth and legend. Just like our own stories about Hercules, Alexander the Great, Achilles, Caesar and so on have been greatly immortalized. The real people, however, would undoubtedly be less heroic if you met them. The same with Forsaken. They are NOT as powerful as everyone thinks they are, it is only the legend and awe surrounding them,

 

Also, they are supremely arrogant, which often leads to their downfall, because they in part believe their own reputations, and underestimate their opponents. This, while creating less-powerful characters, makes them more realistic.

 

Funnily enough, all of those who think the DO is an incompetent fool, well thats EXACTLY what the DO wants people to think. If you were in the WoT, the DO would be laughing at a job well done. (this is not including the Forsaken, which can fairly be called incompetent fools, even if i disagree. I am talking about the DO only)

[Elan Tedronai]

Dark one needs rand to break free?

 

It wasnt rand who drilled the bore into the dark one's prison in the first place

[Barid Bel Medar]

Dark one needs rand to break free?

 

It wasnt rand who drilled the bore into the dark one's prison in the first place

 

Not talking literally needs Rand's specific knowledge and Rand to be the one who actually drills the bore itself. Just that the Dragon's power or influence is needed by the Shadow in order to break free. Just like Perrin and Mat are needed for victory. They are not actually needed to be the ones who personally seal the bore (well, they haven't got any knowledge or anything that shows they could, although that could change in AMOL.) but they are still an integral part of the overall victory.

 

I believe this is the same with Rand and the DO's victory. For some reason, the DO wants Rand alive to fight TG. Why on earth would you want the only person who can defeat you to live to fight the LB?

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, in previous turnings, the Dragon soul has died or turned to the Shadow and it has ended in a draw. Thus suggesting that the DO needs some special circumstance to fully break free and complete his victory.

 

Put the DO's insistence that Rand survives to fight the LB and the latter fact about drawing, it points to the fact that Rand/Dragon plays an integral role in the DO's final victory.

 

There is other evidence that points to this conclusion. The whole plot with Ishamael/Moridin trying to turn Rand instead of killing him. Rand, we already know, is literally one with the land. His power to bend the pattern and the very earth itself, if used in favour of the Shadow (and we saw but a taste of this in tGS) would be a very, very powerful tool, and possibly the key to DO's victory.

 

In fact, I believe he almost achieved the DO's plan at the end of tGS, just as he was about to mess up the whole world. Thus, the DO would have victory if he attempted it.

 

In any case, I could very well be wrong, as there is no conclusive proof, I was just explaining the theory that it is not about the actual drilling, but more of a puzzle piece that is needed to complete the DO's victory.

[Elan Tedronai]

I don't get this hypothesis. sorry.

 

So basically you need the dragon reborn to free you from prison when it was lanfear and beidomon who pretty much drilled the hole in the first place. You're also forgetting the fact that there were instances where the champion of light did turn over to the shadow. And no shaitan broke free because it would have been over right there and then.

 

 

You think rand would matter if moridin had the choedan kal in his hands? So it's a flawed theory from the start

[killdawabbit]

I don't get this hypothesis. sorry.

 

So basically you need the dragon reborn to free you from prison when it was lanfear and beidomon who pretty much drilled the hole in the first place. You're also forgetting the fact that there were instances where the champion of light did turn over to the shadow. And no shaitan broke free because it would have been over right there and then.

 

 

You think rand would matter if moridin had the choedan kal in his hands? So it's a flawed theory from the start

 

I think maybe the missing piece for you here is that The Creator is the one who imprisoned the Dark One in the first place. The Dragon Reborn is The Creator's Champion, his surrogate in the world, you might say. Who drilled the hole is likely completely irrelevant. Who built the prison on the other hand...

 

As for there being multiple times where the Dragon was defeated or turned, well, there are any number of reasons that could not have led to victory. While the Dragon is the key, the most important piece, there are other pieces in the world that might have to fall into place as well. Less specific or defined ones, perhaps. It could be a matter of timing or events, with the Wheel having been able to "correct" just enough to keep ultimate defeat from happening.

[Guest JSmetal]

If time is truly circular and cyclical, which it is supposed to be in the WoT world, then can the Dark One even actually reach "ultimate victory" and destroy everything? Perhaps he has before, such as in one of the instances where the Dragon turned to the shadow, but the Wheel just spun into the next age, not necessarily thwarting disaster, but restarting the cycle. Remember, Lews Therin/Rand realize they are reborn to have another chance, but previous to that realization Rand viewed it as punishment. Perhaps that is truly the DO's prison, being stuck in the cycle. I don't know... I feel like I'm thinking in circles. I just hope some of our questions are answered in AMoL. I love reading everyone's ideas and pondering them, even though it's only a story, it's much like philosophy in our own world. :)

[Suttree]

If time is truly circular and cyclical, which it is supposed to be in the WoT world, then can the Dark One even actually reach "ultimate victory" and destroy everything? Perhaps he has before, such as in one of the instances where the Dragon turned to the shadow, but the Wheel just spun into the next age, not necessarily thwarting disaster, but restarting the cycle. Remember, Lews Therin/Rand realize they are reborn to have another chance, but previous to that realization Rand viewed it as punishment. Perhaps that is truly the DO's prison, being stuck in the cycle. I don't know... I feel like I'm thinking in circles. I just hope some of our questions are answered in AMoL. I love reading everyone's ideas and pondering them, even though it's only a story, it's much like philosophy in our own world. :)

 

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

 

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

 

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

 

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

 

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

 

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

 

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

 

The DO has achieved "lesser" victories, just never a total victory.