price that dragon is going to ask for going to sg

[muddasssir]

I mean Suttree set me on this path.(spoilers, spoilers spoilers) what will be the price of the Dragon going to meet his fate or doom at SG because he specifically mentions it in his POV at the end of ToM me and I guess several posters thought and mentioned here on various post that it is going to be the Dragon's peace but what if Suttree is right and it is only a possible future. what if this is not what he asks for? I mean we really do not like Seanchan and we do not want them to inherit this world but what then? then question is what he will ask? I cannot think of anything else. care to comment?

[Thrasymachus]

I have no doubt that he'll ask for peace, for the nations to stop warring with one another, and for there to be peace between the Seanchan controlled lands and the rest of the Westlands. He'll probably have to give away Illian to the Seanchan to keep them from their war of conquest, but that would bring the map more in line with "The West and the South must be as one, the North and the East must be as one," Finn answer. He may have to give away Arad Doman as well. Once Aviendha makes it back, I reckon he'll try to include the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace, as well as negotiate for the release of the captured Aiel and Aes Sedai. Don't know what he'll have to give up for that one though. Maybe he'll let Tuon in on the Circle he'll use the next time he wields Callandor by letting her leash Alivia.

[yoniy0]

Maybe he'll let Tuon in on the Circle he'll use the next time he wields Callandor by letting her leash Alivia.

The a'dam doesn't allow for entering circles. Besides, my, but you are cold. The map doesn't precisely fit the Aelfinn's answer - do away with Illian and Arad Doman; Tuon needs a boon - let her leash Alivia

[muddasssir]

I have no doubt that he'll ask for peace, for the nations to stop warring with one another, and for there to be peace between the Seanchan controlled lands and the rest of the Westlands. He'll probably have to give away Illian to the Seanchan to keep them from their war of conquest, but that would bring the map more in line with "The West and the South must be as one, the North and the East must be as one," Finn answer. He may have to give away Arad Doman as well. Once Aviendha makes it back, I reckon he'll try to include the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace, as well as negotiate for the release of the captured Aiel and Aes Sedai. Don't know what he'll have to give up for that one though. Maybe he'll let Tuon in on the Circle he'll use the next time he wields Callandor by letting her leash Alivia.

i do not know old Dark Rand might have done it but it is against the over riding theme of the series you do not give in to the bullies and you are talking about giving up two whole nations and all the hundreds or maybe even thousands of channelers to the non-existent mercy of seanchan. Also, there was a foretelling world done with last battle but not done with war. It was again during a bubble of evil that attacked Salidar. I do not know we are working on two premises here one is North and South one and other is Avi's journey through glass columns. If it is not certain that avi's vision is fool proof than it leaves the Dragon's peace open to interpretation. Also, there was a prophecy that Moiraine quotes somewhere to bind the nine moons or some such again if Suttree can be kind enough to give the exact quote. I never thought that it had anything to do with him bowing to Seanchan queen. To cut the long story short if we decide that it is not certain that Avi's vision will come true. Than we have no basis for the assumption there is going to be a Dragon's peace. He can subjugate them and defeat them when they attack WT there by binding nine moons. I am trying to ascertain what if he is not going to ask for the dragon's peace, then what he will ask?

[XXX]

As the Seachan are not invited to FOM by Rand..how can they be included in any peace Rand is planning?

[muddasssir]

As the Seachan are not invited to FOM by Rand..how can they be included in any peace Rand is planning?

My point exactly then what is going to be his price for going to SG?

[DemandredFO]

As for binding the Nine moons, I said in another thread that I think Mat will be dying and Fortouna(lady luck) will be taverened into bonding him. We have the Perrin dream of Mat fighting a dozen of himself and someone approaching with a bloody knife.

I have no idea of Rand's price because we have that Nicola Foretelling from LOC.

[Simpleman2012]

Price by Rand? That's laughable.

 

The Pattern wills as it weaves. Rand has no more say than a thread being inserting into the Pattern for the general good and victory over evil.

 

Do remember the ending of book 13 when Rand was hell bent on rescuing Lanfear. This was a trap set up by Moridin. And it will only end up in a confrontation at the containment of the Dark One's seal itself. Rand...will have to...what he has to do to get his task and responsibility done.

 

He will have no more choice once he made that choice to rescue Lanfear. Just as the many unexplicable events when he or the other 3 taverens were involved such as events in Tear, Andor and Illian.

[yoniy0]

Rand jumped forward, reaching for her, but he was too late. He caught a glimpse of het before she vanished into the blackness below.

Rand froze, staring into that pit. He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead, he felt hatred, concern, and - like a seething viper within him - desite. That had been Mierin Eronaile

Hell bent on rescuing her? The passage was written to make us fear that he'd attempt it, but nowhere does it actually say something like that.

[MasterAblar]

Rand jumped forward, reaching for her, but he was too late. He caught a glimpse of het before she vanished into the blackness below.

Rand froze, staring into that pit. He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead, he felt hatred, concern, and - like a seething viper within him - desite. That had been Mierin Eronaile

Hell bent on rescuing her? The passage was written to make us fear that he'd attempt it, but nowhere does it actually say something like that.

 

He felt desite? Well that can't be good...

[yoniy0]

Hey, I'm not perfect. My DRM azw doesn't allow copy-paste

[muddasssir]

i mean people you have made it an art form someday I am going to ask wikipedia to thoroughly research this phenomena. how can you people take a discussion in a direction that has nothing to do with the topic. wheel weaves as wheel wills but it does not make anyone stop from trying to do anything. it just creates circumstances that they have to follow a certain path. My question was what is the price he is going to ask of the monarchs of the world for going to SG is it that hard a question to comprehend?

[yoniy0]

i mean people you have made it an art form

I was trying to help your argument, by contradicting the idea that he's too clueless to shape events, but the reason no one has yet to give you a good answer is, well, that we don't have one. Personally, I think shaping the world-order post TG is one of the only things he might want, that or pressing others to cooperate with him. As such, I still think the Dragon's Peace is on his mind.

[muddasssir]

well, yes I understand that and I was only joking but can anyone remember all of us being so clueless about something ever? I mean this one has really got me stumped

[muddasssir]

Ok as we really do not care what we write as long as we write what was in that letter that was given to Rand in WT any idea?

[Thrasymachus]

Tuon and co. are just about to launch a massive full-scale assault on the White Tower, and the timeline of that planning makes it look very much like the Seanchan will strike the WT at the same time that everybody's at the FoM. I can easily imagine that the Seanchan show up at the WT, look around and say "Where'd everybody go? We were gonna kill and/or leash them," then wrangle the information out of some prisoner they take, or one of the folks left behind will get word to the armies at the FoM. Remember that according to Avi's glass columns revelation, the Seanchan were included in the Dragon's Peace, and it seems pretty strongly hinted that the Dragon's Peace was forged at the Fields of Merrilor, so they'd have to show up there at some point in order to be included.

 

And I don't think falling under the Seanchan rule is particularly cold-hearted. Rand notes how well the Seanchan administer their territories. The Tinkers flock to Seanchan-controlled lands because the Seanchan actually enforce justice and provide safety and peace. The only real flaw the Seanchan Empire has is the way they treat channelers. And you have to acknowledge that the current layout of the map is not really in line with the Finn's prophecy. Rand's got the North, the East and half the South under his thumb, while the Seanchan have the West, except for Arad Doman and the other half of the South. For the map to be brought into line, Illian at the least, if not Arad Doman as well, will have to be ceded to the Seanchan.

 

I did forget about the leash preventing one from joining circles. Perhaps Tuon will be brought into Rand's circle herself. That would certainly provide the impetus necessary to reform the Seanchan treatment of channelers, but I don't know how Tuon could be convinced to do it, unless, perhaps, she led the circle. That could be one interpretation of the prophecy that he must "kneel to the crystal throne" and "bind the nine moons to him."

[Suttree]

And I don't think falling under the Seanchan rule is particularly cold-hearted. Rand notes how well the Seanchan administer their territories. The Tinkers flock to Seanchan-controlled lands because the Seanchan actually enforce justice and provide safety and peace. The only real flaw the Seanchan Empire has is the way they treat channelers.

 

False. With secret service snatching people away in the night for potentially whispering the the wrong words, an entire non-channeling class sold like livestock, the ability to kill someone if they meet the High Blood's eyes, the nobles sporting with putting adam on men to see if they will die screaming and to top it off it's police state with heavy propaganda to keep people in line. Despite all that it doesn't even produce the stability that would seem to be it's only asset, so we can do away with the myth that people are content under their rule. There are various mentions of unrest(Muyami uprising, Jianmin incident, when Rand is in Seanchan during tFoH the Seeker mentions "There is sedition in this district.") on the other continent and Karede reflcts on putting down "numerous" rebellions in his time with the Deatwatch Guards.

[yoniy0]

Ok as we really do not care what we write as long as we write what was in that letter that was given to Rand in WT any idea?

It most likely informed him of Alsalam's fate. Rand said a friend in the WT gave him the idea, and Verin seems the only likely candidate.

[Simpleman2012]

i mean people you have made it an art form someday I am going to ask wikipedia to thoroughly research this phenomena. how can you people take a discussion in a direction that has nothing to do with the topic. wheel weaves as wheel wills but it does not make anyone stop from trying to do anything. it just creates circumstances that they have to follow a certain path. My question was what is the price he is going to ask of the monarchs of the world for going to SG is it that hard a question to comprehend?

 

My point is - Rand will not be asking for a price to do what he wants and felt compelled to do.

 

He will just go right ahead as he had done fulfilling the other prophecies in his own way, without a care about what price he have to pay or dance to anyone's strings.

 

Either way, if he is fails, there will be no world left, but if he wins, he doubts if he will live to made emperor to facilliate rulership as per prophecied. It will have to come from the monarchs themselves, to seek for compromises, more so when grand armies from each nation are already present in Merrilor, to make demands of unity or annihilation of the lesser powers.

[Thrasymachus]

@Suttree I thought for a long time about how to respond to this, because you have a valid point. The Seanchan are highly authoritarian, especially among the nobility, and they have very strict social classes that are vigorously enforced. They do use secret police, and they do employ slavery. And the Seanchan islands have been noted for rebellions and uprisings during their history. I can't really deny any of that.

 

But I also feel like they deserve some defense. Yes, they have some peculiar social customs, not meeting the eyes of someone who out-classes you, not speaking directly or using the name of someone who out classes you. But they're not enforced much more strictly than the social customs of the West. What do you think would happen if a commoner failed to bow to royalty in one of the Borderlands, or in Cairhein or Tear? And the slaves, far from being some oppressed class, can attain ranks higher than any free man, and many of the Blood. As for the "secret police," is that really any different than the spy networks we know royal and noble houses in the Westlands employ to keep tabs on one another, and carry out the occasional assassination or sabotage? Do the nobility enjoy too much power over the common people and their slaves? Absolutely, but they're also kept on a pretty tight leash themselves. And is it any worse than the power enjoyed by the nobility in Tear before Rand changed their laws? At least the Seanchan nobility had to keep their people relatively happy. I'm sure that any noble who allowed their subjects to rebel would have to issue an apology to the Empress, and we all know how much the Seanchan look forward to that.

 

I'm not saying the Seanchan society is perfect, far from it, nor that it is any better than the cultures and nations of the Westlands. In some ways, they are worse, but in others, they are at least as good, if not better. It's no more cold-hearted to trade over Westland territories to the Seanchan to secure a lasting peace with them than it would be for Illian to cede over some of their land to Tear to stop the long-lasting hostilities between those nations.

[Suttree]

What do you think would happen if a commoner failed to bow to royalty in one of the Borderlands, or in Cairhein or Tear?

 

Nothing even remotely like Seanchan in the Borderlands. I agree though, out of all the main continent countries Tear is the only one that comes close to a similar level of oppresion with the lower classes.

 

And the slaves, far from being some oppressed class, can attain ranks higher than any free man, and many of the Blood.

 

That is only true for the smallest sliver, the upper 5% of the slave class. According to the BWB "Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks, The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place." There is so little chance for advancement that commoners actually seek out opportunitiess to become high level servants. "The loss of freedom, even for future generations, is believed a very small price to pay for such advancement." Sell future generations of your family into enslavement for the chance of advancement? That is sick.

 

 

As for the "secret police," is that really any different than the spy networks we know royal and noble houses in the Westlands employ to keep tabs on one another, and carry out the occasional assassination or sabotage?

 

Yes it is, no other country has anything even remotely like them. Countries like Andor enjoy the freedom to demonstrate and speak out politically. Do that in Seanchan and you will disapear in the night and be put to the question.

 

I'm not saying the Seanchan society is perfect, far from it, nor that it is any better than the cultures and nations of the Westlands. In some ways, they are worse, but in others, they are at least as good, if not better.

 

I would hope that you aren't. Once again, stability is the only thing there system would seem to offer. We know that is not true however and t is not just on the "Seanchan Islands". We have numerous mentions of rebellions across the entire continent. Their people are not content...the proof is in the text. The Domani and Taraboners are doing the same now as well. All of this we have discussed is bad enough and yet we haven't even touched on Damane. If your sixteen year old daughter has the wrong soul attribute she will be taken forever and turned into something less than human. The Seanchan system is deeply flawed, much more so than the majority of countries in Randland.

[Maleshub]

Rand jumped forward, reaching for her, but he was too late. He caught a glimpse of het before she vanished into the blackness below.

Rand froze, staring into that pit. He sought calmness, but he could not find it. Instead, he felt hatred, concern, and - like a seething viper within him - desite. That had been Mierin Eronaile

Hell bent on rescuing her? The passage was written to make us fear that he'd attempt it, but nowhere does it actually say something like that.

 

He felt desite? Well that can't be good...

 

It was interesting to read about Rand's desire in his dream. But in the end, it was a dream; and a man can't be judged by his dreams, especially with LTT memories - who had a long time relationship with Mierin - in his head. And the "seething viper" (negative) hint might point towards Rand resisting that.

 

I don't think Rand will fall for this trap. It will be the Shadow's last attempt against Rand's person before Shayol Ghul; but it will fail.

 

As to the terms Rand has in mind, I would think that they will be turned up side down before this is all told and done. His current terms exclude the Seanchan from the equation (unless Rand plans to bind the 9 moons after the conference in F.o. Merrilor). The Seanchan offer Rand a vast "brood" (sorry to use Mesaana's term) of combat channelers as well as a formidable military force he can use right away.

 

The price Rand would have to pay would be a peace treaty between Arad Doman and Illian on one side and the Seanchan on the other. It could grant a sort of autonomy to those two kingdoms, or a non-aggression pact, allowing the Empress to post token forces there to ensure peace as well as economic ties. It would not allow leashing of damane or other points Rand could reject.

 

For that peace and for fulfilling the "North and East must be one; the West and South must be one; the two must be one" condition to win TG, Rand would bow to the Empress.

 

BTW, it could be possible that Fortuona, after gaining access to Traveling, is spending part of her effort and attention on Seanchan. She can now send spies; and maybe even stage military strikes against enemies there. She would probably prioritize that over more conquests in Randland for the short term. So, the peace would probably serve her purposes nicely.

 

From Aviendha's visions and other text, the "a'dam" is the key to Seanchan hegemony over the land. Maybe Moiraine or Setalle Anan (if Flinn heals her severing) can discover a way to negate the a'dam's effect. And maybe Mat's dragons will be a deciding factor in the military defeat of the Seanchan after TG.

 

But there are other options as well. E.g. The Empress has a special pack with the Ogier on Seanchan. They aren't subjects or da'covale. Why not have the Empress reach a special agreement with the Aiel or other nations? And the alternative where Fortuona is forced to channel might allow her to break for the chains of seeing channelers as animals. She's already shown pragmatism in accepting the "Suldam can learn to channel" concept; why not other changes (with Mat's help).

 

Absent from Rand's equation of terms right now is the whole Aiel issue. If he believes Aviendha (if she returns to him in time), then he will have to adjust his terms to include a new and secure role for the Aiel to stop them from dragging the world down by their useless war against the Seanchan. He will probably break them again; and maybe only a remnant of a remnant will follow his advice; but he'll save that remnant. One of the thoughts I had on this was the Aiel populating the reclaimed lands in the "Blight." Giving them the Waste and Blight will allow them significant space to incorporate themselves in Randland.

[shadowofomioc]

He probably WAS going to ask for peace, but that is until Avien arrives and tells him what she saw in their future if such a thing occured. And then, they will probably hear about the attack on the white tower by the seachan and I doubt at that point they will even think about peace with the Seachan.

 

What role Matt will play in the overall Seachan theme will be interesting though. Matt's opinion on the whole matter could have a large effect on Rand's thinking. You also have that other Seachan soldier, forget her name at the moment, wanting peace with the mainland. So who knows.

 

So many different possibilities it is hard to say. In the end Tuon may just want Rand to bow to her, thus fulfilling that other prophecy that the dragon will kneel before the crystal throne and perhaps a promise ....

 

Who knows, things could get so bad at the White Tower that Rand will see no other way for peace with the Seachan, or atleast for Seachan to stop their conquest, other then kneeling and perhaps giving promises for the future of the Seachan after the last battle. Something like that.

 

What will the world be able to do if most of the aes sedai are dead or captured in the white tower? many hundreds of new channelers into the seachan ranks, perhaps thousands. Eventually a force is simply too strong for you to face.

[Lisa Campbell]

I don't know how Tuon could be convinced to do it, unless, perhaps, she led the circle. That could be one interpretation of the prophecy that he must "kneel to the crystal throne" and "bind the nine moons to him."

 

That's the best interp to that prophecy I've read so far. After their first meeting, I've been leaning towards Mat being the binder, but now you've got me thinking.

 

As for Rand's price, I'm thinking that maybe he will ask Randland to submit to the Seanchan's for military purposes ONLY. He knows the Seanchan have never lost a war, and that before Ishamael corrupted them, they were respected and pretty much the fighting force of the AoL (as seen by Rand in Rhuidean). That in itself may be enough to bind Fortuona, she is definately focussed on the bigger picture. Giving her a bit of rope might be the best thing for Randland in the long run, and if she is also included in the link with Callandor, could well be the clincher for her.

 

Edit: Forgot to say that I don't think the Seanchan's current attitudes will last too much longer, but that like the Asha'man and cleansing Saidin, it will take time. I also think we're jumping the gun and that "The Dragon's Peace" will be implemented in his memory, not by him. FoM is a call to arms, not a treaty. Rand will give an ultimatim after he breaks the seals "Back me up or doom the world" and then Mat and Perrin will back him, I'm looking forward to Mat's persuasion at work if that eventuates. It will be GOLD!

[muddasssir]

 

I'm not saying the Seanchan society is perfect, far from it, nor that it is any better than the cultures and nations of the Westlands. In some ways, they are worse, but in others, they are at least as good, if not better. It's no more cold-hearted to trade over Westland territories to the Seanchan to secure a lasting peace with them than it would be for Illian to cede over some of their land to Tear to stop the long-lasting hostilities between those nations.

I am sorry Thrasymachus but are we reading the same series? I mean that we all know that nobody really loves Aes Sedai but collaring people who can channel is taking it bit too far. Another thing that you mentioned that spies used by great houses are not the same as those sorry questioners or hands or whatever they use. They actually subvert neighbors to spy on their neighbors and family to give up people among their own for nothing more than looking at someone wrong. I mean if BS makes some kind of hero out of Seanchans I am going to be really cross.