Rand and Moridin

[ElusiveAthena]

This is a crazy idea of mine - or maybe it was actually an offical "theory" and I haven't come across it - but in one of the prophecies of the Dragon it says something like "in order to defeat the Dark One, the two must become one". Rand assumes that means he needs to make an alliance with the Seanchan, but from what we've seen with prophecies they never turn out as expected. I was wondering what do you guys think about the possibility of Moridin and Rand being almost like two halves? Because Min saw a viewing of Rand merging with another man and Rand assumed that meant Lews Therin, but at the end of GS he realised "they were not separate and never had been" so the merging must be with someone else. Also, Moridin seems to be "the Rand who made all the wrong choices in one of the earlier turnings of the wheel", and Graendal herself thinks "Others of them had taken different path to the Shadow, including Ishamael... Yes, he knew exactly what al'Thor was feeling." We already know Moridin is connected somehow with Rand because of the balefre, but how is it that Moridin can feel Rand's physical pain? It can't just be the balefiire crossing. And Ishamael seems to be Lews Therin's opposite (since or perhaps before) the Breaking, so perhaps in a metaphorical sense they are like the dark side and light side of a soul...

[eweiss]

It's very interesting to think about - very "Dark Crystal" type thinking. I just can't get past the notion of Ish being anything but all bad - however it would be ironic if the Dark One's Ne'blis ended up factoring into his destruction.

 

My assumption has always been that Moridin was going to somehow take over Rand's body in the physical world and attempt to kill his soul in the world of dreams. My assumption was that he had mind trapped the two best dream walkers for this exact purpose.

 

I figured that Perrin would help save Rand in the dream world while Logain defeated the false persona of Rand in the waking world. Logain would then be the de facto leader of the light, while the Horn of Valere would call both Perrin and Rand back to defeat the Dark One at Shayol Ghul.

 

It would be pretty cool if the merging left Moridin with a fresh perspective on life however and this led him to betray the GLoD in some manner. Perhaps by leading Faine into the PoD under the guise of Rand's physical body, thus sacrificing himself in order to bring the Evil of Mordeth into the Bore to occupy the Dark One while Rand seals the Bore from without.

 

So many possibilities - I just hope "the song" is a part of this process of healing the Bore.

[Thanatos]

Pretty good post...

 

Only thing I have to say is that the prophecy is "he shall hold a blade of light in his hand, and the three shall become one."

 

Other than that, bravo.

[spoke]

Pretty good post...

 

Only thing I have to say is that the prophecy is "he shall hold a blade of light in his hand, and the three shall become one."

 

Other than that, bravo.

 

No he is referring to the Finn answer. Rand asked how can he win the last battle and live. They said something similar to: "the north and the east must be one. The south and the west must be one. The two must be one."

 

But this is not an original theory. I saw this proposed long before BS started TGS.

[Suttree]

Per RJ we know souls can not be split.

[eweiss]

Who said anything about split souls?

[ElusiveAthena]

Spoke - if you're suggesting that I "pinched" someone else's theory - I definitely didn't. I came up with it of my own accord and so it is "original" in that sense. Just like the wheel was probably invented separately in different continents, doesn't mean that I appropriated someone else's ideas.

 

 

And youvegotAiel - I love the idea of the "song" healing the Bore.

[Suttree]

Who said anything about split souls?

 

I was wondering what do you guys think about the possibility of Moridin and Rand being almost like two halves?

 

Must have misunderstood if she meant summat else.

[eweiss]

I took it to mean opposite sides of a single ideology or mirror images of the same mindset type of deal.

 

What is clear is that the two are linked and one must remain between the two. The "merging" will have to occur in some form.

 

We have seen the following:

 

1. Souls occupying other living bodies

2. Souls being removed from Dream World

3. Hero souls living in Dream World

 

I find the notion of Moridin occupying Rands physical body as an excellent, and logical, plot point. It would fit many of the various foreshadowed visions:

 

1. Logain stepping over "mask" of Rand

2. Alivia helping Rand die

3. Min's vision of two merging and one remaining

 

There are so many possibilities with this concept. Considering the series started with Ish and LTT it'd be nice symmetry to end with them together in some manner. I also find it intriguing that Ish's main reason for joining the shadow was the logic behind the inevitable victory....what if Rand's "love" realization, coupled with the possabilities that Faine represents, made Moridin re-think his position.

 

I don't think that much is likely, but Moridin is made for more than a physical confrontation, that is for sure.

[ElusiveAthena]

You'vegotAiel is closest to what I meant. Obviously Rand and Moridin aren't one soul split- but like the symbol of the Power - the White Flame and the Dragon's Fang - they are complete opposites yet connected, making up a balance between Light and Dark. in the same way the Creator and the Dark One aren't one great Power split in two, but two mirror oopposites, and saidin and saidar are completely different - yet when they are together they feel more "complete".

 

Maybe the battle between Rand/Moridin and Ishamael/Lews Therin is like the eternal struggle of the Creator and the Dark One (I mean, Ishy says at the beginning "It will not be over until the end of time") but their essential oppositeness means that they are balanced by eachother.

 

And the idea of Moridin taking over Rand's body - and that explaining the "Logain stepping over a "mask of Rand" - that is an absolutely brilliant theory!

[Suttree]

You'vegotAiel is closest to what I meant. Obviously Rand and Moridin aren't one soul split- but like the symbol of the Power - the White Flame and the Dragon's Fang - they are complete opposites yet connected, making up a balance between Light and Dark. in the same way the Creator and the Dark One aren't one great Power split in two, but two mirror oopposites, and saidin and saidar are completely different - yet when they are together they feel more "complete".

 

Maybe the battle between Rand/Moridin and Ishamael/Lews Therin is like the eternal struggle of the Creator and the Dark One (I mean, Ishy says at the beginning "It will not be over until the end of time") but their essential oppositeness means that they are balanced by eachother.

 

And the idea of Moridin taking over Rand's body - and that explaining the "Logain stepping over a "mask of Rand" - that is an absolutely brilliant theory!

 

Well we know per the authors their souls are often spun out together. They are the Creaters and the DO's champion. I guess what confuses me is if you aren't talking about split souls, and you think it is something more than balefire crossing what is it? I mean we know they are now and have in ages past been set up opposite each other. In this age however it is the balefire connection that is causing this exchange of feelings, emotions etc.

[ElusiveAthena]

I think RJ made a running theme of opposite halves of something making a whole - a continuall motif of Light and Dark coming together. So maybe Rand and Moridin are halves in a more allegorical sense?

[Orderofolde]

I took it to mean opposite sides of a single ideology or mirror images of the same mindset type of deal.

 

What is clear is that the two are linked and one must remain between the two. The "merging" will have to occur in some form.

 

We have seen the following:

 

1. Souls occupying other living bodies

2. Souls being removed from Dream World

3. Hero souls living in Dream World

 

I find the notion of Moridin occupying Rands physical body as an excellent, and logical, plot point. It would fit many of the various foreshadowed visions:

 

1. Logain stepping over "mask" of Rand

2. Alivia helping Rand die

3. Min's vision of two merging and one remaining

 

There are so many possibilities with this concept. Considering the series started with Ish and LTT it'd be nice symmetry to end with them together in some manner. I also find it intriguing that Ish's main reason for joining the shadow was the logic behind the inevitable victory....what if Rand's "love" realization, coupled with the possabilities that Faine represents, made Moridin re-think his position.

 

I don't think that much is likely, but Moridin is made for more than a physical confrontation, that is for sure.

Don't forget what we've seen happen with Isam and Luc, I still don't know the whole workings of that, but there it it.

[A Rant Lord]

When balefire is used on a person, their thread burns away. Now perhaps when balefire thouched balefire, the opposite happened and it created an intertwining of the two scources of the balefire, i.e Rand and Ishy's threads in life are intertwined in future, so everyday they become more connected with eachother until they will be fully merged. Now what would be funny is if we could find good accurate references to how long balefire of what size burns away how many days, then you can estimate how many days have past since they used the balefire according to the size of the balefires at shadar logoth. Weird random thought, idea's?

[dhammett11]

Pretty good post...

 

Only thing I have to say is that the prophecy is "he shall hold a blade of light in his hand, and the three shall become one."

 

Other than that, bravo.

 

No he is referring to the Finn answer. Rand asked how can he win the last battle and live. They said something similar to: "the north and the east must be one. The south and the west must be one. The two must be one."

 

But this is not an original theory. I saw this proposed long before BS started TGS.

 

 

On the contrary, I don't think many people have come across the idea that the Finn's answer, "The two must be as one," might refer to a Rand/Moridin merger. It's one of Min's viewings that many people think point to Moridin and Rand merging, though Rand still believes the viewing referred to him and LTT:

 

“I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.”

[Barid Bel Medar]

You'vegotAiel is closest to what I meant. Obviously Rand and Moridin aren't one soul split- but like the symbol of the Power - the White Flame and the Dragon's Fang - they are complete opposites yet connected, making up a balance between Light and Dark. in the same way the Creator and the Dark One aren't one great Power split in two, but two mirror oopposites, and saidin and saidar are completely different - yet when they are together they feel more "complete".

 

Maybe the battle between Rand/Moridin and Ishamael/Lews Therin is like the eternal struggle of the Creator and the Dark One (I mean, Ishy says at the beginning "It will not be over until the end of time") but their essential oppositeness means that they are balanced by eachother.

 

And the idea of Moridin taking over Rand's body - and that explaining the "Logain stepping over a "mask of Rand" - that is an absolutely brilliant theory!

 

Well we know per the authors their souls are often spun out together. They are the Creaters and the DO's champion. I guess what confuses me is if you aren't talking about split souls, and you think it is something more than balefire crossing what is it? I mean we know they are now and have in ages past been set up opposite each other. In this age however it is the balefire connection that is causing this exchange of feelings, emotions etc.

 

I think, unless I am completely mistaken, you are both making the same point.

 

I agree with EA with what she is saying, that Rand and Moridin are like the AS symbol, the yin and yang, light and dark. I believe sutree also says the same thing here, quoting the fact that RJ and Brandon have confirmed that Rand and Moridin's lives are intertwined and have fought against each other in other turnings of the wheel, which supports EA's theory.

 

I believe, correct me if I am mistaken, but this is kind of what you meant when you said it was more than the balefire? I think you are correct here, but have it the wrong way round. They were always connected before this incident as the champions of Light and Shadow. However, what is different is due to the balefire, they have somehow connected their actual bodies and feelings.

[ElusiveAthena]

Well said.

[TootThatHorn]

i like this line of thought, its like their threads in the pattern were already so close to each other and caught in the swirl of taveren, that when their balefires touched their threads sent a heat wave through the pattern, singing and incorporating the two threads in to one

[Barid Bel Medar]

i like this line of thought, its like their threads in the pattern were already so close to each other and caught in the swirl of taveren, that when their balefires touched their threads sent a heat wave through the pattern, singing and incorporating the two threads in to one

Nice, never thought of it precisely like that. I think I am adopting this theory. Nice one!

 

Edit: If this was expressed by previous posts, I must have misinterpreted until TTH's post, so sorry!

[TootThatHorn]

i like this line of thought, its like their threads in the pattern were already so close to each other and caught in the swirl of taveren, that when their balefires touched their threads sent a heat wave through the pattern, singing and incorporating the two threads in to one

Nice, never thought of it precisely like that. I think I am adopting this theory. Nice one!

 

Edit: If this was expressed by previous posts, I must have misinterpreted until TTH's post, so sorry!

 

in my head it kind of looks like the balefire got sent burning the future instead of the past, maybe possible since they werent direct hits but the two hitting, and as the two threads are getting scorched, they slowly form in to one solid thread, right at the time of the last battle, coalescing in to whatever single thread is able to form after words, should that be the case...unfortunately it kind of implies that the pattern is made of polyester which if you ask me is pretty cheesy lol