What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[XXX]

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

[Suttree]

The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

 

The AS have fallen far but they will still play a pivotal role in helping lead the lights forces. As has been made perfectly clear the Amrylin can summon leaders and is a level above Kings and Queens. Even the Lord Captain Commander of the WCs would attend the Amrylin if called upon.

 

As for Rand he has admitted he doesn't know how to do it, and needs Min to find the answers for him. Not sure why would pretend otherwise when it is stated straight out. Lastly please stop making up quotes. Either find it in the text or don't provide it at all.

 

Rand's "plan" here is not a plan, and the default position for it should be, "Hell no!"

 

Egwene does not know that, and it isn't why she opposes him. She opposes him because she doesn't want the seals broken. That's her only reason.

 

You always make this distinction as if it makes a huge difference. Yes she thinks there might be another way to seal the DO without breaking the seals but Rand refusing to plan certainly doesn't inspire confidence that he actually has a solid one. Even though it isn't stated straight out it very well may have played a part in her decision to oppose him. Not sure you can say with certainty "that's her only reason".

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[Elan Tedronai]

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

 

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

 

totally different from the situation right now when she's is the BOSSMAN or BOSSWOMAN should i say. And she certainly didnt tell 'you do not need to know'

 

And lol at the egwene's pay grade bit. dude, you need to try harder

[Suttree]

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

 

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

 

Actually it was in LoC. But as usual xxx doesn't let the facts stop him from trying to make Egwene look bad. Far from what he claims she says...

 

"I can’t tell you that, Rand. I have no right. It isn’t mine to tell."

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[Maleshub]

A few points to consider regarding the Rand - Egwene meeting:

- The first thing Rand did after weeping on his grave was visiting the WT. It wasn't opening a gateway to anywhere else to handle other matters. So, the WT is very high on Rand's priority list. It has a very important role to play in his plan; and his statement to Egwene that "she did her part" indicates it.

- Rand intended for it to be high drama and intentionally wanted to rile up the WT (for unexplained reasons).

- Rand was confident that he would go in and out of the WT; and did not fear A.S. or Egwene actually "boxing" him again.

- Rand entered Tar Valon unannounced when the last credible reports on him was near madness and nearly destroying a borderlander army to teach them a lesson in humility (hardly good PR).

- Egwene did not feel prepared to meet Rand; yet was forced to in order to show her that she wasn't a DR "puppet."

- Egwene started the meeting seeing Rand as the DR (to be feared); but changed to seeing him as Rand (a man that can be trusted, with the fate of the world).

- Egwene had him shielded and could have detained him in the WT because of his "insane" unformulated plan; but she let him leave and agreed to meet him a month later.

- All her actions since the meeting point to use of persuasion and "diplomacy" to convince Rand that his plan is not right. There is no indication that she intends to deny him "physically," which would have been the case if she didn't trust him.

 

In the end, I feel that both Rand and Egwene trust each other enough to handle this matter for the greater good.

[Thrasymachus]

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

 

And Egwene is not the leader of the non-seachan forces of the light. Did she appoint herself to that position? The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

 

We know what Rand knows about the seals, and he doesn't have any clue what to do after breaking them, or how to re-seal the Dark One. Rand would know better than her what would happen after the seals are cleared, but he does very little to explain it or reassure them, just gives a throwaway line that it'll be a bit worse, but it's a risk they have to take.

 

And as for Egwene not being the leader of the non-Seanchan forces for the Light, what Suttree said. Also, she's as much the leader of the Westlands as the President of the United States is the leader of the world. She has enormous political power and enormous control over various resources, enough that she can see her will done in any nation not under Seanchan control, and maybe even in a few territories that are.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[XXX]

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

 

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

 

Actually it was in LoC. But as usual xxx doesn't let the facts stop him from trying to make Egwene look bad. Far from what he claims she says...

 

"I can’t tell you that, Rand. I have no right. It isn’t mine to tell."

 

I am referring to a different instance in book 5. A scene when both Moraine and Egwene are meeting with Rand. She was under no orders from Salidar as the only persons she was in contact with are Ny and Elyane.

[XXX]

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

 

And Egwene is not the leader of the non-seachan forces of the light. Did she appoint herself to that position? The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

 

We know what Rand knows about the seals, and he doesn't have any clue what to do after breaking them, or how to re-seal the Dark One. Rand would know better than her what would happen after the seals are cleared, but he does very little to explain it or reassure them, just gives a throwaway line that it'll be a bit worse, but it's a risk they have to take.

 

And as for Egwene not being the leader of the non-Seanchan forces for the Light, what Suttree said. Also, she's as much the leader of the Westlands as the President of the United States is the leader of the world. She has enormous political power and enormous control over various resources, enough that she can see her will done in any nation not under Seanchan control, and maybe even in a few territories that are.

 

As usual Sutree talks about the time when the AS power was the strongest and the Lord Captain commander would come at her bidding. In Randland today the 2 strongest military powers are the Aiel and the Ashman. Egwene is no where the leader of either of these 2 forces.

 

Considering the Egwene has no idea about the seals,what happens if the seal gets broken or anything else about the seals, not sure what makes her an expert with her suggestion on how to defeat the DO without breaking the seals. She is starting from blank zero she has no knowledge.

Edited March 24, 2012 by XXX47

[XXX]

A few points to consider regarding the Rand - Egwene meeting:

- The first thing Rand did after weeping on his grave was visiting the WT. It wasn't opening a gateway to anywhere else to handle other matters. So, the WT is very high on Rand's priority list. It has a very important role to play in his plan; and his statement to Egwene that "she did her part" indicates it.

- Rand intended for it to be high drama and intentionally wanted to rile up the WT (for unexplained reasons).

- Rand was confident that he would go in and out of the WT; and did not fear A.S. or Egwene actually "boxing" him again.

- Rand entered Tar Valon unannounced when the last credible reports on him was near madness and nearly destroying a borderlander army to teach them a lesson in humility (hardly good PR).

- Egwene did not feel prepared to meet Rand; yet was forced to in order to show her that she wasn't a DR "puppet."

- Egwene started the meeting seeing Rand as the DR (to be feared); but changed to seeing him as Rand (a man that can be trusted, with the fate of the world).

- Egwene had him shielded and could have detained him in the WT because of his "insane" unformulated plan; but she let him leave and agreed to meet him a month later.

- All her actions since the meeting point to use of persuasion and "diplomacy" to convince Rand that his plan is not right. There is no indication that she intends to deny him "physically," which would have been the case if she didn't trust him.

 

In the end, I feel that both Rand and Egwene trust each other enough to handle this matter for the greater good.

 

Egwene and Rand are not equal. She follows the dragon in the LB not the other way around.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Replying to the question in the thread's title, i dislike Egwene - or rather, i dislike her story arc in later books - for exactly the same reason i dislike Hinderstrap, The Seven-Striped Lass, Mat's letter to Elayne etc.

 

She was really good in The Great Hunt, shame how it went downward after that...

 

It is nice to see old guard still active and kicking in another Egwene thread btw:) That's why i like those threads - they lure the same good old squad to discuss the same subject to death again...

[Suttree]

As Egwene told Rand in book 5 if I remember correctly when he asked about the rebel AS location "You will be told what you need to know and will not be told what you do not need to know". Perhaps the seals are way above Egwene's pay grade and she does not need to know?

 

you need to reread the books. that was in book 6. egwene merely told him she couldn't divulge salidar AS location because she was under orders.

 

Actually it was in LoC. But as usual xxx doesn't let the facts stop him from trying to make Egwene look bad. Far from what he claims she says...

 

"I can’t tell you that, Rand. I have no right. It isn’t mine to tell."

 

I am referring to a different instance in book 5. A scene when both Moraine and Egwene are meeting with Rand. She was under no orders from Salidar as the only persons she was in contact with are Ny and Elyane.

 

She wasn't under any orders with the quote I provided. It is precisely that she was in contact with Nyn and Elayne that she wouldn't tell. Not to mention how could Moiriane have possibly been present in book 5?

 

LoC

She hesitated, but the agreement between her, Nynaeve and Elayne – Light, how long ago had they made it?

 

Now if you are talking about book 4 we have a different scenario entirely. Egwene had made a promise, that is why she couldn't tell him. Rand's actions forced the scenario and she was playing at being AS since they were arguing. Avi and Moir's agreement in the scene show she was in the right. Bottom line though she wasn't telling because of the promise. My point holds becuase while you are getting book numbers and situations wrong it would be far too much to hope that you give us the proper context.

 

As usual Sutree talks about the time when the AS power was the strongest and the Lord Captain commander would come at her bidding. In Randland today the 2 strongest military powers are the Aiel and the Ashman. Egwene is no where the leader of either of these 2 forces.

 

So you are saying Galad wouldn't come at her call? No idea why you even bother to make this decision, as usual your point holds zero bearing on the topic at hand. Military might does not equal political clout in this instance. Not to mention there is not a king or queen in the world outside of Seanchan rule that would not still come at the Amyrlin's bidding(the same can not be said of Taim). Of course Egwene will not personally lead either of those forces which is totally beside the point being made.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

She wasn't under any orders with the quote I provided. It is precisely that she was in contact with Nyn and Elayne that she wouldn't tell. Not to mention how could Moiriane have possibly been present in book 5?

 

LoC

She hesitated, but the agreement between her, Nynaeve and Elayne – Light, how long ago had they made it?

 

Now if you are talking about book 4 we have a different scenario entirely. Egwene had made a promise, that is why she couldn't tell him. Rand's actions forced the scenario and she was playing at being AS since they were arguing. Avi and Moir's agreement in the scene show she was in the right. Bottom line though she wasn't telling because of the promise. My point holds becuase while you are getting book numbers and situations wrong it would be far too much to hope that you give us the proper context.

 

 

 

I am talking about the scene in book 5 I believe right before Mat tells about Morgase when Moir and Egwene are talking to Rand. She makes a determination that he does not need to know about the rebel location with the typical Egwene arrogance.I do not have the electronic books you probably do so you can look it up/

 

 

 

So you are saying Galad wouldn't come at her call? No idea why you even bother to make this decision, as usual your point holds zero bearing on the topic at hand. Military might does not equal political clout in this instance. Not to mention there is not a king or queen in the world outside of Seanchan rule that would not still come at the Amyrlin's bidding(the same can not be said of Taim). Of course Egwene will not personally lead either of those forces which is totally beside the point being made.

 

When did I say anything about Galad? Anyway isn't he sworn to Perrin who follows Rand?

 

Irrespective of Galad, the strongest military forces in Randland(The Aiel and Ashaman) are no where in Egwene's control now will they come to any summon she makes. Pretty far stretch to say she is the leader of Randland's forces as the poster who I was replying to said initially.

Edited March 24, 2012 by XXX47

[Suttree]

She wasn't under any orders with the quote I provided. It is precisely that she was in contact with Nyn and Elayne that she wouldn't tell. Not to mention how could Moiriane have possibly been present in book 5?

 

LoC

She hesitated, but the agreement between her, Nynaeve and Elayne – Light, how long ago had they made it?

 

Now if you are talking about book 4 we have a different scenario entirely. Egwene had made a promise, that is why she couldn't tell him. Rand's actions forced the scenario and she was playing at being AS since they were arguing. Avi and Moir's agreement in the scene show she was in the right. Bottom line though she wasn't telling because of the promise. My point holds becuase while you are getting book numbers and situations wrong it would be far too much to hope that you give us the proper context.

 

 

 

I am talking about the scene in book 5 I believe right before Mat tells about Morgase when Moir and Egwene are talking to Rand. She makes a determination that he does not need to know about the rebel location with the typical Egwene arrogance.I do not have the electronic books you probably do so you can look it up/

 

Once again how could Moiraine have been around in book 5? She was already a captive of the Finns. It happened in book 4 in the scenario I presented above. Your recollection of both the scene and why Egwene answered the way she did is false.

 

As for the second part I must have misunderstood that poster, I thought he was just saying they will play a big role in helping lead the lights forces. Not that she would literally control the Ashaman and Aiel. That quite obviously will not be happening.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Moiraine becomes prisoner in book 5 at the end right before Rand kills Rahvin..

[Suttree]

Moiraine becomes prisoner in book 5 at the end right before Rand kills Rahvin..

 

Ahh my bad, I always skip one somehow when I am counting...regardless the scene I am talking about above happens in tFoH. The second one which I originally quoted is in LoC.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[Thrasymachus]

I meant exactly what I said. Egwene Al'Vere, the Amryllin Seat of the Aes Sedai, is as much the leader of the non-Seanchan lands of the Westlands as the President of the US is the leader of the world. The President of the US can't command the armies of the other nations, or is he even nominally in charge of their combined forces in the UN. Some nations, Iran, for instance, are even actively opposed to the US. But he nevertheless possesses influence and political power enough that he can see done whatever he wants to see done wherever he wants to see it. If he wanted to see something happen in Iran and was fully committed to it, there is little to nothing the authority of the Iranians could do to thwart or undermine it. Egwene has enormous influence among the leaders of the Aiel, particularly among the Wise Ones, who are the real leaders and authority in the Aiel. And I don't consider the Asha'man among the forces of the Light. Aside from the few with Rand or Logain, the rest are under Taim's thumb, who is almost certainly a Darkfriend, if not one of the Forsaken in disguise. In any event, they are not an organized political force of the Light.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[muddasssir]

There are three things that Egwene’s supporters have never bothered to answer or if they have, they glossed over it as if it does not matter. First, Rand will have to break the seals on the DO’s prison we know it since book 6 LoC. Remember an old philosopher by the name of Herid Fel who was killed by the Gholam for he was about t explain something to Rand. His note was something like and I am quoting from memory if someone can find the exact quote that will be very kind. “Chaos and strife weakens the seals. While peace and harmony strengthen them, you have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild, will explain when I see you next do not bring the girl too pretty and distracts me.” There was something else there that I am not able to bring out of my memory again the actual quote will be appreciated. But, the point is that is when Min started taking interest in those books. She along with Rand is the only other person who knows that Heid Fel had figured it out and that is why shadow had him killed. Therefore, unlike egwene’s off screen preparation for the last battle we have a solid foreshadowing that Rand has to break the seals. Second, Amyrilin and Aes-Sedai were held in awe, fear or respect. World has since changed. They are no longer the biggest, meanest or the most powerful dog in the yard. There are plenty of other channelers and since Dumai’s well and aes Sedai becoming Da’stang at the hand of wise ones they do not command the same respect as they once did. In fact, if you take a look you will find that tower’s influence is reducing with every day. As for respect among wise ones, do you really think that they are going to listen to Egwene if it comes to a conflict between her and Rand? You might be prescient but from what we have read to date even being very polite, it is improbable. Tear and Illian barely came, border landers have sworn to Rand and Ebou dari king is with Rand. That just leave Andor with Egwene as Mayene, Ghealdan and white cloaks are sworn to Perrin who we can safely say is with Rand. She is really as powerful as president of U.S.A. Third, again nobody bothered to answer that we hear in avi’s journey through glass columns that White tower has fallen. In that meeting of elders someone tells it just before Aiel decide to return to waste. Hostilities broke out after about twenty years of dragon’s peace. With queen of Andor an Aes sedai and close friend and she being the leader of forces of light. Why are Seanchan just traipsing through the Rand land. What was the most powerful and the best Amyrilin ever was doing for twenty years if Seanchan just walked through. Especially, if you remember that Seanchan damane cannot link. Pleas or once answer with facts rather than innuendos and hunches.

[muddasssir]

In fact, take a look and remember that Rand is king of Illian and even Darlin never said that he is going to oppose Rand. Again i am quoting from memory but he said that he was disturbed by the news and he was worried about Seanchan he never committed that he is going to oppose Rand. I am sure that if someone explains the whole situation to Mr Obama he is going to be very impressed with his power.

[Suttree]

...

 

Here is the quote from Herid Fel

 

"Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty."

 

Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. We are not discussing wether he is right to break the seals, we know that must happen. What people are debating is wether Egwene is in the right to question Rand when he refused to offer any explanation(in fact we know he doesn't have a plan yet) and he has been insane for a number of books leading up to this.

 

As for the the second part of your quote, once again Avi's trip through the columns is one "possible" future. It does not mean that specific future is going to happen. You may be literally the only person I have seen on any WoT site that actually believes her vision will come to pass.

 

Lastly we know AS influence has been on the decline for hundreds of years. The WT is a fallen institution, just as this is a fallen world. But you have a number of things wrong, for the WOs all AS are not datsang. That is only directed at individual sisters. In fact all the channeling groups have just banded together in the exchange program. Once again you are looking at this the wrong way. No one is saying Egwene will have complete control over all the lights forces. Only that the Amrylin seat is still more powerful than individual Kings and Queens and that AS will play a large role in helping lead the light at TG.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Suttree

[dileeph]

Not a big Egwene fan or anything ... but ...

 

First, Rand will have to break the seals on the DO’s prison we know it since book 6 LoC. Remember an old philosopher by the name of Herid Fel who was killed by the Gholam for he was about t explain something to Rand. His note was something like and I am quoting from memory if someone can find the exact quote that will be very kind. “Chaos and strife weakens the seals. While peace and harmony strengthen them, you have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild, will explain when I see you next do not bring the girl too pretty and distracts me.”

 

Clear the rubble .. yes ... but of the seals themselves? ... we don't know. We are yet to know whether the seal is a physical structure or not. Could be metaphorically referring to something else altogether. We will never know until we read the last book.

 

Again on Avi's vision in the glass columns ... totally agree with Suttree. We don't know what she saw was the future. That the other glass columns showed the past does not mean this one shows the actual future. Remember Egwene's testing in the Tower when she saw possible futures for herself and Rand?

 

 

Then again as to whether Egwene was right in questioning Rand? Whenever I read the books themselves I get pissed off at that scene .... after all this is the Post-Enlightenment-Rand we are talking about! But now that I think of it, this is just the repeat of what must have happened in the AoL. The female Aes Sedais questioned Lewis Therin's plan and Lewis Therin now seems to think they were right. Maybe if the female AEs of AoL had agreed and gone with Lewis Therin everything would have ended up peachy. But like Egwene, they also though that the plan was dangerous. The new Rand Lewis Therin is trying to correct the mistakes he made last time. So probably Egwene is doing what he intended.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Black Hammer

[Suttree]

Maybe if the female AEs of AoL had agreed and gone with Lewis Therin everything would have ended up peachy. But like Egwene, they also though that the plan was dangerous.

 

In that case we know the the AoL AS turned out to be right. The plan was flawed and if they had been involved the only diff would have been Saidar tainted as well.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

[XXX]

I meant exactly what I said. Egwene Al'Vere, the Amryllin Seat of the Aes Sedai, is as much the leader of the non-Seanchan lands of the Westlands as the President of the US is the leader of the world. The President of the US can't command the armies of the other nations, or is he even nominally in charge of their combined forces in the UN. Some nations, Iran, for instance, are even actively opposed to the US. But he nevertheless possesses influence and political power enough that he can see done whatever he wants to see done wherever he wants to see it. If he wanted to see something happen in Iran and was fully committed to it, there is little to nothing the authority of the Iranians could do to thwart or undermine it. Egwene has enormous influence among the leaders of the Aiel, particularly among the Wise Ones, who are the real leaders and authority in the Aiel. And I don't consider the Asha'man among the forces of the Light. Aside from the few with Rand or Logain, the rest are under Taim's thumb, who is almost certainly a Darkfriend, if not one of the Forsaken in disguise. In any event, they are not an organized political force of the Light.

 

Nice analogy..the US president is not the leader of the world. Americans may think so but it is not true.Similarly the AS might think the rule the world but it does not make it so. Atleast the Americans have the military might to enforce their will in most parts of our world the AS do not even have that in Rand land.

 

And the wise ones make it clear from the very start when Moir tries to dissuade them from following Rand..they follow the Car'a'carn not the Aes Sedai. Egwene cannot make the Aiel do anything.

 

Taim controls no more than one third of the Ash'aman and they are regardless the most powerful military organization in all of Randland.

Edited March 24, 2012 by XXX47

[dileeph]

In that case we know the the AoL AS turned out to be right. The plan was flawed and if they had been involved the only diff would have been Saidar tainted as well.

 

Which we don't know from the books per se. And as I stated, what we know from the books is that Lewis Therin inside Rand's head thought that they(female AEs) did the right thing.

The female Aes Sedais questioned Lewis Therin's plan and Lewis Therin now seems to think they were right.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Quote

 

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

Thanks for pointing to that. If RJ thinks so, end of argument :-)

 

Also I need to read the Strike At Shayol Ghul to see what the other plans were.

 

Maybe as someone said somewhere, maybe they should have done Seed/Tree singing/The Song to heal the pattern and close the bore.

[Luckers]

Technically the female Aes Sedai signatories to Latra's Concord were not 'right' as they feared the sealing would in fact rip the bore open. Furthermore they held to that conviction long after their own plan to use the Choedan Kal lost viability, despite looming defeat at the hands of the Shadow. That admittedly saved saidar from being tainted, which saved the world, but I still don't know how 'right' you could consider Latra and her followers.

[Thrasymachus]

The female Aes Sedai's plan in the Age of Legends was to use the Chodean Kal to create a sort of temporary barrier around the Bore until they could figure out how to close it permanently. Not close enough that the Dark One could touch Him, as Lews Therin's seals were. Unfortunately, the ter'angreal access keys for the Chodean Kal were hidden in a research facility located in a territory that had recently fallen to the forces of the Dark.

 

Let's put it this way, there is no greater political authority anywhere in Randland that can equal that of Egwene's, except for Rand's, and Rand's not expected to survive the Last Battle and what political authority he has gathered leading up to it is not expected, by the characters, to survive the Last Battle either. The sole exception to that is Aviendha, who has some foreknowledge of the Dragon's Peace. This leaves the Amryllin Seat as the greatest political authority in the non-Seanchan Westlands that can be expected, by the characters, to survive the Last Battle. As the greatest, non-Dragon Reborn, non-Seanchan political authority, she has a responsibility to represent the concerns and interests of the rest of the Westlands to the Dragon Reborn about a plan of this nature.

 

And this is what I meant by those who resent the female-dominated institutions of political power written about in the Wheel of Time. People who will go to any lengths to deny that the White Tower really has been, and will continue to be after the Dragon's death, the greatest political power in the Westlands, who undermine their legitimacy as such a political authority when it can no longer really be denied, and who heap upon Egwene the exact same crimes of which they accuse the Aes Sedai.