First blood between Salidar and Tar Valon?

[munja100]

In book 6, chapter 39, Egwene says "Once the first blood was shed between Salidar and Tar Valon, it would be difficult to make the tower whole again". There are others who make declarations with similar meaning, and also the Salidar Aes Sedai are acting in accordance with that attitude (the way they received emissary from Tar Valon for example).

 

Isn't that just ludicrous? Elaida and her associates stilled and tortured Siuan and Leane. In the ensuing battle, a lot of Aes Sedai were killed and a lot of warders. Blues were all but exiled from the tower. One of their agents was dosing rebels with forkroot and sending them to the tower (or at least tried to do so with Ninaeve and Elayne), and I can only imagine what the others did.

 

Why aren't Salidar AS pissed off? When I read the sentence I quoted, it almost made me put down the book. I feel that I'm missing something, though, that's why I felt a need to write it here. It just seems like a too big error for Robert Jordan to make, so I guess that I misunderstood something?

[Agitel]

It's hard to explain outside of "politics". They weren't really separate factions when the rift happened. Nobody had declared themselves to be rebels, and certainly they had by no means declared themselves to be a separate entity by coming up with their own Hall or Amyrlin. That's changed. There were a lot of blurred lines and gray areas in that initial split. By this point in the story you have two separate, distinct factions at high tension with each other. I think that while a lot of the Salidar Aes Sedai opposed what happened, I don't think they can also say it was completely illegal by Tower law, they'd just argue that the law was abused.

 

Perhaps crime of passion vs premeditated. I don't know, you look at these things differently depending upon the context.

 

Also, the forkroot on Nyn and Elayne was mostly just for Elayne. She's the Daughter-Heir of Andor, they want her back in the Tower for loads of reasons.

[Suttree]

People need to keep in mind the BA also played a large role with the initial split. There were the minimum number of Sitters in on it and the deciding vote was placed by a Black. The vote should never have counted, sowing chaos was the goal and it worked. Nevertheless once there is a separate Tower actual fighting between the two groups is taking things to an entirely different level. That is not a step you take lightly.

[MarkDiLillo]

I am pretty sure that no Aes Sedai were killed in the conflict. Keep in mind that everyone is in agreement that Siuan and Leane deserved what they got; the disagreement was in how Elaida went about it. She should have been tried properly and publicly instead of secretly deposed and her warder murdered.

 

The chaos arose when men (not Aes Sedai) felt strongly enough about what was going on to try to break Siuan and Leane free. That's when people started dying...and that was just a big mess with nobody really sure how it started. What we do know is that Aes Sedai were NOT fighting one another. We know this simply because the Three Oaths prevent them from using the OP unless in defense of their own life. So unless sisters were running around with swords then it is safe to say they were not involved at all. The Salidar Aes Sedai simply chose to leave in protest. Some men were definitely fighting and dying, but the women don't really have a tremendously high regard for the lives of common soldiers and men (even warders it seems) and if memory serves me correctly it is never stated or implied that any of that fighting was done so at the orders of Aes Sedai.

 

So...what really was going on for the longest time was that there was simply a skirmish that resulted in an entire faction of Aes Sedai leaving the Tower in protest. Nobody was actually trying to fight and kill one another and aside from being mad at each other over mostly politics, the two sides were definitely not at war or hostile to each other. Both sides wanted a resolution and neither side realistically envisioned bloodshed.

 

Escalating a peaceful protest to war is a significant upgrade and would result in a lot of hard feelings between the two factions that would make reuniting the tower seemsly almost impossible as you can imagine.

 

Also - the whole drugging Elayne and Nynaeve thing was unique because Elayne was daughter heir and her sneaking around was literally screwing up world politics between the two most powerful nations on the continent. It had nothing to do with her being aligned with Salidar.

[munja100]

Thank you for your replays, I think I get it now

[GB]

I am pretty sure that no Aes Sedai were killed in the conflict. Keep in mind that everyone is in agreement that Siuan and Leane deserved what they got; the disagreement was in how Elaida went about it. She should have been tried properly and publicly instead of secretly deposed and her warder murdered.

 

The chaos arose when men (not Aes Sedai) felt strongly enough about what was going on to try to break Siuan and Leane free. That's when people started dying...and that was just a big mess with nobody really sure how it started. What we do know is that Aes Sedai were NOT fighting one another. We know this simply because the Three Oaths prevent them from using the OP unless in defense of their own life. So unless sisters were running around with swords then it is safe to say they were not involved at all. The Salidar Aes Sedai simply chose to leave in protest. Some men were definitely fighting and dying, but the women don't really have a tremendously high regard for the lives of common soldiers and men (even warders it seems) and if memory serves me correctly it is never stated or implied that any of that fighting was done so at the orders of Aes Sedai.

 

So...what really was going on for the longest time was that there was simply a skirmish that resulted in an entire faction of Aes Sedai leaving the Tower in protest. Nobody was actually trying to fight and kill one another and aside from being mad at each other over mostly politics, the two sides were definitely not at war or hostile to each other. Both sides wanted a resolution and neither side realistically envisioned bloodshed.

 

Escalating a peaceful protest to war is a significant upgrade and would result in a lot of hard feelings between the two factions that would make reuniting the tower seemsly almost impossible as you can imagine.

 

Also - the whole drugging Elayne and Nynaeve thing was unique because Elayne was daughter heir and her sneaking around was literally screwing up world politics between the two most powerful nations on the continent. It had nothing to do with her being aligned with Salidar.

 

i think you are mistaken a bit here, not everyone agreed on what happened to Siuan and Leane. If you re-read when both of them just got in Salidar and meet the "council", they all said that they didnt approve of the fact that how they were treated unfairly and also the charges laid against them were never proved in a full sitting of the Hall.

 

so even if the sisters didnt take part in the battle, i dont think the Warders would have acted on their own without conscent or knowing his Sister feels the same way.

[Mr Ares]

I am pretty sure that no Aes Sedai were killed in the conflict.

You're wrong. Off the top of my head, I know one of the Blue Sitters died in the conflict.

Keep in mind that everyone is in agreement that Siuan and Leane deserved what they got;

No, most people are in agreement that what Elaida did was within the letter of the law, even if it violated the spirit.

 

The chaos arose when men (not Aes Sedai) felt strongly enough about what was going on to try to break Siuan and Leane free.

No. The fighting was started by men on Mesaana's orders - she'd brought them in under the guise of working as masons, but they were actually soldiers. Blood was spilt before Siuan and Leane were taken into custody. Hamar and Coulin were killed by Gawyn when they led an attempt to get them free, but the fighting began before that.

So unless sisters were running around with swords then it is safe to say they were not involved at all.

Or unless men with swords were trying to kill them. Which they were.

The Salidar Aes Sedai simply chose to leave in protest.

No, their lives were in danger.

 

So...what really was going on for the longest time was that there was simply a skirmish that resulted in an entire faction of Aes Sedai leaving the Tower in protest. Nobody was actually trying to fight and kill one another and aside from being mad at each other over mostly politics, the two sides were definitely not at war or hostile to each other. Both sides wanted a resolution and neither side realistically envisioned bloodshed.

It began in bloodshed. Furthermore, the Salidar AS did declare war. They declared war on Elaida rather than the WT. Their ultimate goal was to reunify, and blood being spilled would work against that, but many of these sisters had fled in fear for their lives in the first place.

[damandred]

I think Mark D has a point about the salidar AS, not being serious at first about the rebellion (though the black Ajah probably were).

It seemed to me that before siuan and leane turned up, it was more a protest than revolt.

[MarkDiLillo]

Post some quotes, Mr. Ares. Some of what you said rings a bell, but others seem to just be your interpretation of events.

 

"Or unless men with swords were trying to kill them. Which they were." Prove this.

 

No, their lives were in danger. And this.

 

And which Sitter died in the conflict? And where in the books does it say the fighting began before Siuan and Leane were taken into custody? That doesn't make much sense if its true...why would Mesaana start a random conflict prior to Elaida moving to grab power?

[Suttree]

Post some quotes, Mr. Ares. Some of what you said rings a bell, but others seem to just be your interpretation of events.

 

"Or unless men with swords were trying to kill them. Which they were." Prove this.

 

No, their lives were in danger. And this.

 

And which Sitter died in the conflict? And where in the books does it say the fighting began before Siuan and Leane were taken into custody? That doesn't make much sense if its true...why would Mesaana start a random conflict prior to Elaida moving to grab power?

 

It wasn't a random conflict. The Mason's started the fighting shortly after Siuan' arrest was announced.

 

TSR Ch. 47

"Fighting," Min said reluctantly. She had hoped the two women would be out of the Tower grounds, even out of the city, before learning of this. She herded them around the dark stains, prodded them on when they tried to look back. "It began yesterday, right after you were taken, and did not stop until maybe two hours ago. Not completely."

"You mean the Gaidin?" Leane exclaimed. "Warders, fighting each other?"

"Warders, the guardsmen, everyone. It started when some men who came claiming to be masons – two or three hundred of them – tried to seize the Tower itself right after your arrest was announced."

 

As for Sisters dying don't have time to dig more but there was this directly after the quote above...

 

TSR Ch.47

"Elaida didn't wait to find out if the Blue Ajah would stand for you or not. There isn't a Blue sister still in the Tower, not alive, I know that."

"Sheriam?" Leane asked anxiously. "Anaiya?"

"I don't know. There are not many Greens left, either. Not in the Tower. The other Ajahs split, one way and another. Most of the Reds are still here. As far as I know, everybody who opposed Elaida has either fled or else they are dead. Siuan..."

 

Lastly they most certainly did not agree with Elaida that Siuan "deserved" it.

[sleepinghour]

And which Sitter died in the conflict? And where in the books does it say the fighting began before Siuan and Leane were taken into custody? That doesn't make much sense if its true...why would Mesaana start a random conflict prior to Elaida moving to grab power?

I don't think it was ever said in the books what happened to the Blue Sitter, but RJ mentioned it once. From the interview database:

 

Question: Who was the third Blue Ajah Sitter who didn't make it to Salidar? What became of her?

Robert Jordan: Well, she died. She was one of the ones who was killed after Siuan was deposed and everything went to hell in a handbasket inside the Tower.

[YoungKing]

Post some quotes, Mr. Ares. Some of what you said rings a bell, but others seem to just be your interpretation of events.

 

"Or unless men with swords were trying to kill them. Which they were." Prove this.

 

No, their lives were in danger. And this.

 

And which Sitter died in the conflict? And where in the books does it say the fighting began before Siuan and Leane were taken into custody? That doesn't make much sense if its true...why would Mesaana start a random conflict prior to Elaida moving to grab power?

 

Wasn't it in the works between Elaida and Alviarin for a little while? Seems funny that Mesaana would have nothing to do with it... She certainly did bring in men to fight under the guise of stone masons, so it was probably planned, like somebody said, to sow chaos and make things worse.

 

I don't know if there is a direct link between Alviarin and Mesaana at this point in time, but it seems Mesaana at least knew what was going on.

[Suttree]

Edit: Already mentioned...

[MarkDiLillo]

Well I stand corrected. Though I think the general gyst of what I was trying to say is correct. The fighting was not done at the orders of Aes Sedai and their decision to leave the tower felt more like a protest to me rather than organized war. Obviously events began to change as the rebels organized and took steps to remove Elaida, but in the beginning it was simply a "this is ridiculous we do not agree that Elaida is Amyrlin so we are leaving."