"Game of Thrones" = "Game of Houses"?

[Mat w/ 2-sided Ashendarei]

It is impossible to write a fantasy novel without covering trodden ground. That said-

 

1. Game of houses- Game of Thrones

2. Wolf dream- Wolf Dream (someone becomes a wolf when they fall a... You get the idea)

3. Aiel- Free folk (forced to live in a barren wasteland beyond the wall/ spine of the world and are perceived enemies until the are...you get the idea. At least GRRM made it a frozen wasteland?)

4. Spear maidens- Spear wives (awesome fighter chicks that will cut you! Andddd that a main character ends up 'with')

 

*In before 'Lord of the Rings did everything first- from ring wraiths to having the middle initials R. R.'

[sVieira151]

I don't know if GRRM has read WoT. I do know that he was very grateful to RJ for providing the cover quote for AGoT, something which he credits with helping to generate a lot of sales for the book. I don't think Martin "obviously" borrowed from RJ. Certainly there isn't really anything in ASoIaF that screams WoT rip off (they have similarities, but nothing that can obviously be aid to be Martin borrowing from Jordan, although much that could be them borrowing from the same sources). So no, similarities between the two cannot be said to detract from th artistic merit of either. They just came up with similar names for the same thing in this case.

 

Well, GRRM also named a character after Jordan. So maybe there was more?

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Jordayne

 

Ah, Zappa beat me to it. damnit. And Werthead. Whoops.

[UncleButcher1980]

 

 

 

Well, GRRM also named a character after Jordan. So maybe there was more?

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Jordayne

 

Ah, Zappa beat me to it. damnit. And Werthead. Whoops.

 

Only by a year...

[EmperorAllspice]

The main difference I notice is that in ASOIAF the Game of thrones is treated much more seriously and with respect than WOT treats Daes Dae'mar.

 

And by that I don't mean that the characters don't take both concepts seriously. Because they do. Cairhien lives and breaths the Great Game. No, I mean that the narrative itself treats them entirely differently.

 

The Great Game is played up as being absolutely pathetic and even outright LAUGHABLE at points. Apparently, you just need to rock up to Cairhien in a fancy shirt and spend the week in an inn doing sod all and the king will send you a letter. and you're treated as a master of the game. Also, apparently a person can master Daes Dae'mar in about a year or so. Since teens are capable of being the greatest politicians on the planet (Rand, Egwene, Perrin). Casually playing people who've been steeped in the game their entire lives. It's never shown as a positive tool, more as an irritant that must be worked around. And it's shown as never being a patch on honesty. Note how Rand's most potent opponents were the Andorans with their straight forward to-the-pointedness. (Rand and Perrin get ahead in negotiations by being honest. and it's always misinterpreted by his adversaries as something highly complex. Look at where being honest got Ned Stark)

 

Wheras in ASOIAF the game is treated as something with actual merit. The intelligence and dignity of a character can be measured in how well he plays the game.

 

I think, and I might be wrong here, please correct me if I am, that Robert Jordan hated politics and saw them as something that always gets in the way. And the entire Great Game system in WOT is at least partly a heavy handed slam against these kinds of schemers. Wheras GRRM actually liked politics and found them fascinating

[sVieira151]

 

 

 

Well, GRRM also named a character after Jordan. So maybe there was more?

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Jordayne

 

Ah, Zappa beat me to it. damnit. And Werthead. Whoops.

 

Only by a year...

 

Well, i saw that post, quoted it and posted. I didn't read after it. I only noticed those posts after i read the posts after the one I quoted. 

[Hagazussa]

For those of you who think that the similarities between GOT/GOH are mere coincidence: Is "wolf dreams" a coincidence too?

 

Ehm...Dracula had kinship with animals to some extent and that book was written over 100 years ago. There are plenty of examples older than WoT which have people who are somehow able to communicate with, dream with or have a special connection with animals, this is not something that Jordan invented. Also if you want to go beyond fiction this is a common element of allot of both folklore and several religions so no I do not see this as being something that make it obvious that Martin was inspired by Jordan in any way shape of form. He could have been for all I know, but the concept of people communing with animals is to generic to it being any poof of such a inspiration. By this kind of logic WoT would be inspired by Star Wars since both uses a energy model magick system. In fact there are more similarities between Star Wars and WoT than there is between a Game of Ice and Fire and WoT. Some things are just to generic to really be an indication of anything.

 

You actually help make my point. The fact that "politics" or "political

intrigue" have each gone by many names actually makes it LESS likely

that Jordan and Martin would converge on almost identical names for two

very similar types of goings-on, and more likely that one borrowed from

the other.

 

I do not agree. In A Song of Ice and Fire noble Houses and the conflict and power struggles between such entities are the main focus of the series, it is Houses against Houses, so calling the thing Game of Houses seam to be the most logical thing in the world.

 

My point wasn't that Martin deals with some of the same themes as Jordan

(or for that matter, several of the same themes common to nearly all

fantasy novels), it was that he deals with some of the same themes AND

gives at least one of these an almost identical name to the one Jordan

uses in WOT. Could this be a coincidence? Absolutely, it just seems

unlikely.

 

The problem with this argument is that if the name used was an unlikely one, then yes having a similar name do sound like thee are some inspiration there. However having a name that is the most logical thing in the world, and which is a rather generic name then it do not. Let me take an example. In the fantasy series Sword of Truth we have a few things that are very, very clearly heavily inspired by WoT so when Terry Goodkind calls his collar that will allow one magic user to control another for a rada'han which do sound rather similar to a'dam the reference is rather clear, especially since this is not a logical name that just pops at you, it have to be called that. However calling the political maneuvering between noble Houses for Game of Houses is something that seam rather logical, there is nothing strange in two people coming up with that name separately from one another.

 

It is the same that whenever there is a fantasy series that talks about weaving magick there will be someone who screams look it is ripping of WoT without considering that weaving spells is part of folklore and religion and is a concept far older than the Wheel of Time series. Sometimes fantasy will have similar concepts because of either coincidence because the concepts are very generic or because both authors are inspired by the same folklore and or earlier work of fiction that have held such concepts.

 

I see that you have said you spoke with Martin about this and the discussion is over so this is more of a general reply, not to you but more to the topic of this and this was taken from WoT that seam to pop up every now and again. I once ended up in a heated discussion with some WoT fans who was so upset because there was this new fantasy series where you had a farmer's son who becomes a mage and is destined to save the world and there was dragons in the setting so clearly it was a rip of from WoT. Yeah that describes about 90 percent of all fantasy out there. I am surprised though that none have commented on some of the concepts that are very similar between WoT and the RPG game Mage the Ascension for while the settings are vastly different there are some striking similarities here and there in the details.

[wotfan4472]

I have only read Game of Thrones from GRRM's series, and find it really brutal.... however from what I have read, I believe the Forsaken would have a ball in Westeros!!

[Ryamano]

What about the Empire trilogy, written by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts? Daugther of the Empire was written in 1987, Servant of Empire in 1990 and Mistress of the Empire in 1992. In it we see our protagonist, Mara of the Acoma, play the Game of the Council, the intricate politics, subterfuge and violence actions used by the nobles of the Empire of Tsuranuanni to gain power. It's also called The Great Game in that series.

 

Just, so you know, to put credit where is due: Feist and Wurts created the whole "fantasy politics as a game" thing way before Jordan or Martin. To be more precise, Feist already had mentioned the Game of the Council in the Riftwar saga, going back as far back as Magician (1980), but the Empire trilogy is basically Game of the Council: The Fantasy Series, whereas the Game of the Council is a sideshow in the Magician series.

[Orderofolde]

Well "Game of Houses"/"Game of Thrones" is just clever ways to say "Hey, politics exist." In both series, in fact in any fantasy series with a scope outside of a young boy finding a sword and saving a princess, you're going to see politics. Lords and ladies wanting more power, or fighting to hold their power, or losing their power. WoT is about a world heading towards it's end, and to RJ he felt that even in dire circumstances like that people would still be selfish and try to gain power or have others lose theirs. It didn't seem realistic to him to have a group of people meet the savior of mankind and say, "Oh you say you're the savior of mankind, and you have a prophecy to prove it? Well than right-o, let's go into battle for you!" He believed in self-interest and that that would play a HUGE part in everything, even what the savior was doing would be more for himself then for others good.

 

Martin has much of the same feeling, but where he differs is that his Game of Thrones doesn't just end with losing power, it ends with losing your life. If you lose, you die. The End. Martin agrees in self-interest and that in times of turmoil people will seize opportunities, but he makes an even bigger game out of it, and he makes it more dangerous.

 

But you could almost say RJ was writing for a younger audience then Martin, and leave it at that. Either way the names might be similar, but I don't really think Martin read RJ and thought "oh I'm going to take this name and change it a little." It's probably no more then a tiny coincidence.

Yes, GRRM and RJ found catchy titles for politics.  Think Italian city-states and the Medici and Cremona and Florence.  Each ruled by certain families.  Pretty much a war among the houses.

[dawnflower8]

Robert Jordan and George R R Martin were friends who put references to each other's books in their own. There's no way it was a coincidence. It's totally a reference.

 

Just like Elayne saying "I always pay my debts."

[DemandredFO]

politics has been around since life began and there are only so many things you can call it