Moiraine and the Seanchan

[Majsju]

Random stuff...

 

Sure,you can argue against those points, though I find every arguement you made quite flawed. However, what you do is arguing against a single issue, over and over again. An author can not afford that luxury, he/she must look at the bigger picture.

 

I see a red line with many of the ideas you throw out here. You want to be the one who figured out something noone ever really thought of, so you keep looking for these ideas that are so far out there that no regular reader would ever notice them (even though the books are written for the regular readers, not people like us who pick everything apart down to the level of absurdity).

 

Chill out, dude.

[Rose]

Hmm, okay so I have a question too now.

 

In fact it likely takes at least ten years to come to this point--as such, it is very unlikely that Fortuona could either see the flows [without wearing the bracelet of the woman channeling the flows] or be held by an a'dam.

 

How does wearing the bracelet change something is seeing the flows? Do you mean that she can see the flows the damane is weaving when she is wearing the bracelet, but can't see the flows when she isn't? It seems a bit strange. I would think that sul'dam are never supposed to see the flows, but end up being able to after years of practice, regardless of whether they are wearing the bracelet at the moment or not.

 

Another thing that is strange about Tuon, though, is that she doesn't seem to use the a'dam as the other suldam do (forcing the damane to do what they want) but rather as Nynaeve did with Moghedien (channeling herself through the damane, with the damane having no control over it). We see that when she collars Joline. This would suggest she can already see the flows (you can't weave anything if you don't).

 

I had never considered that she could be a sparker, but it actually would make a lot of sense in this light. It would explain why her use of the a'dam is so peculiar. She might have a block preventing her from channeling unless she is wearing the bracelet or something (which is why she likes it so much, even though she doesn't know it!). Maybe they should get Nynaeve to drown her to break her block, then ;)

[Luckers]

Random stuff...

 

Sure,you can argue against those points, though I find every arguement you made quite flawed. However, what you do is arguing against a single issue, over and over again. An author can not afford that luxury, he/she must look at the bigger picture.

 

I see a red line with many of the ideas you throw out here. You want to be the one who figured out something noone ever really thought of, so you keep looking for these ideas that are so far out there that no regular reader would ever notice them (even though the books are written for the regular readers, not people like us who pick everything apart down to the level of absurdity).

 

Chill out, dude.

 

Have I done something to offend you Maj? I do not believe I have earned this attitude. Certainly I have only ever endeavoured to present concepts that I thought were interesting for discussion, and I have stated freely when the logic is loose, as I did in this case.

 

Do you truly look at me as a glory hound, desperate to be right? I had thought you, as my friend, knew me better than that. I glory only in the Wheel.

[Dream]

I really like this idea. It's plausible, Moiraine knows the Seanchan need to be dealt with and now has a link to the Empress. I was thinking Rand would work out Mat and Tuon's relationship himself but here we find Moiraine with Mat and nothing to do.

 

A slight quibble though, what do you mean by forcing Tuon to spark? If you mean force Tuon to consciously channel, I agree but this can be done whether or not Tuon has the spark. I think Tuon has far too much Sul'dam experience to be channeling subconsciously. In any case, slapping an A'dam on her would probably be far easier than whatever forcing someone to spark entails.

[Luckers]

I really like this idea. It's plausible, Moiraine knows the Seanchan need to be dealt with and now has a link to the Empress. I was thinking Rand would work out Mat and Tuon's relationship himself but here we find Moiraine with Mat and nothing to do.

 

A slight quibble though, what do you mean by forcing Tuon to spark? If you mean force Tuon to consciously channel, I agree but this can be done whether or not Tuon has the spark. I think Tuon has far too much Sul'dam experience to be channeling subconsciously. In any case, slapping an A'dam on her would probably be far easier than whatever forcing someone to spark entails.

 

I mean forcing her to start channeling against her will [whether she be a learner or a sparker], so yes, pretty much as you said. For the rest, though, slapping an a'dam on her would not work. She has not been a sul'dam long enough for an a'dam to hold her.

 

Either she sparks as a sparker, or someone forcible starts her channeling if she's a learner. The a'dam will never touch her otherwise.

[Wantanswers]

I really like this idea. It's plausible, Moiraine knows the Seanchan need to be dealt with and now has a link to the Empress. I was thinking Rand would work out Mat and Tuon's relationship himself but here we find Moiraine with Mat and nothing to do.

Moiraine has a link with the White Tower, she has a link with Cairhien and she has a link with the Aiel, and of course she has a link with Thom. The link with the Aiel might be very important. She and Matt are the only Wetlanders who ever entered Rhuidean. Moiraine also entered the ter'angreal that made Aiel women apprentices of the Wise Ones.

 

Egwene had several dreams that linked her to the Seanchean. In one of those dreams she even receives a complete adam, which means that the authority over the damane and suldam is (freely) given to her. Because of that I don't think Moiraine will have to do anything with the Seanchean.

 

I was thinking Rand would work out Mat and Tuon's relationship himself but here we find Moiraine with Mat and nothing to do.

As soon as Grady returns he will make a gateway to Caemlyn and Matt will be very busy there. Moiraine might remain there when she sees the mess. If not, she is going to the Field of Merrilor.

 

A slight quibble though, what do you mean by forcing Tuon to spark? If you mean force Tuon to consciously channel, I agree but this can be done whether or not Tuon has the spark. I think Tuon has far too much Sul'dam experience to be channeling subconsciously. In any case, slapping an A'dam on her would probably be far easier than whatever forcing someone to spark entails.

One cannot be forced to spark. A channeler is born as a Sparker or as a Learner. Learners must be taught how to touch the True Source and how to control the Power. Sparkers only have to learn how to control the Power.

In Seanchean Sparkers are made damane, Learners become suldam.

Do you realise what an impact it would have on the Seanchan society if it turned out that Fortuona is a Sparker? That the Empress is a marath'damane! It would surely lead to a civil war.

[Luckers]

Egwene had several dreams that linked her to the Seanchean. In one of those dreams she even receives a complete adam, which means that the authority over the damane and suldam is (freely) given to her. Because of that I don't think Moiraine will have to do anything with the Seanchean.

 

Yeah I was the one who pointed this dream out to everyone. The question remains... what makes the Seanchan woman give her the sul'dam and a'dam? That's the thing with Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan... in every single one, they come to her.

 

One cannot be forced to spark. A channeler is born as a Sparker or as a Learner. Learners must be taught how to touch the True Source and how to control the Power. Sparkers only have to learn how to control the Power.

 

Actually (as I've stated several times in this thread) Brandon stated that it is possible to force someone to spark under the right conditions. We don't know what those conditions are, and they may be extreme, but he did make clear it was possible.

[Dream]

As soon as Grady returns he will make a gateway to Caemlyn and Matt will be very busy there. Moiraine might remain there when she sees the mess. If not, she is going to the Field of Merrilor.

I'm not so sure they will go to Caemlyn or the FoM (does Mat even know about that?). I'm under the impression that since Mat chose to save Moiraine instead of doing what Verin wanted that he won't be there for Caemlyn. Not that it's not physically possible, just that a sequence of events has started that will take Mat elsewhere.

 

By the way, I was just joking when I said that they had nothing to do.

 

One cannot be forced to spark. A channeler is born as a Sparker or as a Learner. Learners must be taught how to touch the True Source and how to control the Power. Sparkers only have to learn how to control the Power.

In Seanchean Sparkers are made damane, Learners become suldam.

Oh, I agree. One is born with the spark or not. Which is why I found the phrase "forced to spark" odd.

 

But just because one is born with the spark does not mean the collar will work on them right away. It seems the collar will only work on those who have touched or are close to touching the True Source.

 

RJ has said that Learners can start channeling on their own. It must be a conscious effort and they will likely fail (and like all wilders if they succeed they could also die). But it is possible. In the case of Sul'dam, I think their practice with the damane is akin to training in the WT. They learn how to control the OP through the damane while under the protective buffer of the A'dam. They never channel themselves, but they learn how to do it (safely?). RJ has described the experienced Sul'dam as "on the brink of channeling" which is why the collar will also bind those Sul'dam as well. One of Mat's Sul'dam starts to channel on her own, I believe.

 

Do you realise what an impact it would have on the Seanchan society if it turned out that Fortuona is a Sparker? That the Empress is a marath'damane! It would surely lead to a civil war.

If she's a sparker, they'd just leash her like all other marath'damane. That's not such a big deal. The timing is especially bad now, but it happens. I think it'll be more of an issue when they find out all their Sul'dam will eventually be able to channel. I don't know if Tuon's "I choose not to" will fly with the general populace.

 

 

 

I mean forcing her to start channeling against her will [whether she be a learner or a sparker], so yes, pretty much as you said. For the rest, though, slapping an a'dam on her would not work. She has not been a sul'dam long enough for an a'dam to hold her.

 

Either she sparks as a sparker, or someone forcible starts her channeling if she's a learner. The a'dam will never touch her otherwise.

When was the last time she was tested? She does get a lot of practice in and as Rose pointed out, she seems rather adept at it. She certainly seems to be "on the brink of channeling" to me. She doesn't have to have actually channeled to be held.

[Luckers]

I mean forcing her to start channeling against her will [whether she be a learner or a sparker], so yes, pretty much as you said. For the rest, though, slapping an a'dam on her would not work. She has not been a sul'dam long enough for an a'dam to hold her.

 

Either she sparks as a sparker, or someone forcible starts her channeling if she's a learner. The a'dam will never touch her otherwise.

When was the last time she was tested? She does get a lot of practice in and as Rose pointed out, she seems rather adept at it. She certainly seems to be "on the brink of channeling" to me. She doesn't have to have actually channeled to be held.

 

At the absolute most she was tested a year before the events of the series, but that being said, it's irrelevant. She is a sul'dam as a hobby, the majority are sul'dam as a discipline, yet by all accounts none of the genuine learners test positive before the age of 24.

 

Fortuona is a good sul'dam because of her attitude toward the training of damane, not due to her ability to channel.

[Caveatar]

Tuon CHOOSES to not channel.

Regular channelers, (Some of them) CHOOSE not to be Darkfriends.

 

If 13-13 forcibly turning someone to the shadow is bad

how is forcibly 'sparking' Tuon not bad?

 

I don't think Moiraine will do that to Tuon.

Not that she may not demonstrate to Tuon and the world that

the Empress, (may she suffer a terminal wedgie) is not one

bit different than all the collared subhuman Damane.

 

Caveatar

[Thrasymachus]

Fortuona's gonna get collared by someone on Rand's side. In my opinion, that's the most reasonable interpretation of the "bind the Nine Moons to him" prophecy. Next most reasonable would be something involving the Oath rods. As for Tuon being a learner and not a sparker, as long as she's collared, wouldn't it be possible to force her to start channeling, even if she's never done it before? Not quite the same thing as "sparking" a "learner," but perhaps close enough to satisfy Luckers?

 

Could it be Moiraine that collars Fortuona? Possibly. It's certainly in-character for her to do something like that. And it would be Fortuona getting her just desserts, considering she now knows the truth about sul'dam and damane. I could easily see Moiraine sneaking up on Fortuona while they're all at a parlay or something, forcing her to channel something trivial, then treating her to a lecture about how now they're the same since they've both channeled and the parallels between using the One Power and political power. Don't know how she'll get the opportunity to actually pull it off though.

[Luckers]

Fortuona's gonna get collared by someone on Rand's side. In my opinion, that's the most reasonable interpretation of the "bind the Nine Moons to him" prophecy. Next most reasonable would be something involving the Oath rods. As for Tuon being a learner and not a sparker, as long as she's collared, wouldn't it be possible to force her to start channeling, even if she's never done it before? Not quite the same thing as "sparking" a "learner," but perhaps close enough to satisfy Luckers?

 

Could it be Moiraine that collars Fortuona? Possibly. It's certainly in-character for her to do something like that. And it would be Fortuona getting her just desserts, considering she now knows the truth about sul'dam and damane. I could easily see Moiraine sneaking up on Fortuona while they're all at a parlay or something, forcing her to channel something trivial, then treating her to a lecture about how now they're the same since they've both channeled and the parallels between using the One Power and political power. Don't know how she'll get the opportunity to actually pull it off though.

 

Yeah except we know Fortuona hasn't the experience as a sul'dam to be held by the collar. So either she sparks--forcibly or otherwise--or the collar will not hold her.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Could it be Moiraine that collars Fortuona? Possibly. It's certainly in-character for her to do something like that. And it would be Fortuona getting her just desserts, considering she now knows the truth about sul'dam and damane. I could easily see Moiraine sneaking up on Fortuona while they're all at a parlay or something, forcing her to channel something trivial, then treating her to a lecture about how now they're the same since they've both channeled and the parallels between using the One Power and political power. Don't know how she'll get the opportunity to actually pull it off though.

 

Moiraine is a master of the Game of Houses; in general, she seems to favor subtlety over brute force. Seems more likely to me that if she's going to talk Tuon into channeling something trivial, it'll be the flows for the binder, the Oath Rod, which can and will hold her to whatever she agrees to if phrased properly.

[Wantanswers]

Yeah I was the one who pointed this dream out to everyone.

Must have missed that. I usually skip topics about Egwene, because I don't want to read again that people hate her, why they hate her and how much they hate her.

 

The question remains... what makes the Seanchan woman give her the sul'dam and a'dam? That's the thing with Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan... in every single one, they come to her.

And now you are speculating about Moiraine, before you have figured out how she can enter Ebou Dar without being leashed and her warder likely killed. You didn't wonder how a marath'damane can ever make an appointment with the Empress. Or didn't you realise that Tuon will probably remain in Ebou Dar until she takes a plane to the White Tower.

 

"We will go," Bethamin said firmly. She was determined to learn, it seemed.

"Yes," Seta said, "though I sometimes think it might be better to simply let us die, as opposed to . . . Well, what we are, what we represent, means that we are a danger to the Empire."

Mat nodded."Tuon is a suldam," he said.

The two woman looked down.

"Go with the Aes Sedai,"Mat said. I'll give you your own horses so you don't have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That'll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me to find a way to fix this without the Empire to collapse."

The two woman looked to him,more firm and confident, suddenly.

"Yes, Highness," Bethamin said. "It is a good purpose for us to have. Thank you, Highness."

Seta actually got tears in her eyes.

If you think this is a red herring you could go on with speculating about Moiraine.

If you think it is or might be a foreshadowing you should concentrate on Bethamin and Seta.

 

I believe it is a foreshadowing.

[Luckers]

And now you are speculating about Moiraine

 

Yes, that is precisely what I'm doing.

 

The question remains... what makes the Seanchan woman give her the sul'dam and a'dam? That's the thing with Egwene's dreams about the Seanchan... in every single one, they come to her.

 

before you have figured out how she can enter Ebou Dar without being leashed and her warder likely killed. You didn't wonder how a marath'damane can ever make an appointment with the Empress.

 

Gateways, inverted weaves, Moiraine's history with infiltrating highly secure facilities to confront her enemies--any one of these points could speak to that, and tellingly--after all, as you point out, a marath'damane would have to make her own apointments should she seek the Empress--the Empress is rather unlikely to give one of her own volition.

 

The main point remains--in each of Egwene's visions, the Seanchan come to her. The question being, why. I would suggest that Moiraine is why.

 

Or didn't you realise that Tuon will probably remain in Ebou Dar until she takes a plane to the White Tower.

 

In truth, I did not realise this, though I suppose Tuon did die in Ebou Dar, so I doubt she'll leave there, sho-wings or otherwise.

 

Fortuona on the other hand is hardly a fainting violet... she'll go where she's needed, and we know one of her goals is in making the Dragon kneel to her, which will doubtless bring her near Moiraine. Presuming, as I've stated, that Moiraine does not go to her.

 

If you think this is a red herring you could go on with speculating about Moiraine.

If you think it is or might be a foreshadowing you should concentrate on Bethamin and Seta.

 

I believe it is a foreshadowing.

 

I do not think it is a red herring. I think it is one piece of the puzzle. Rand is another, unless you rule out him binding the Nine Moons to serve him? Mat himself is a third, and Egwene a fourth, given the vision of the a'dam.

 

For all that, I will go on speculating about Moiraine. The point of this theory, though weak it may be, is the suggestion that based on the prophecies in exitence, Moiraine may well be the linch pin that ties all these points together.

[afranson]

Something to consider.... The Seanchan throne inheritance is based on their being the direct descendent of Artur Hawkwing. Let's proceed to Matrim Cathoun at the Last Battle blowing his horn. If any Seanchan are presentat that battle who are they going to see presenting himself before Mat asking for direction. Artur Hawkwing himself, that's who. So we will have the Emperor of Emperors basically bowing to the the Prince of Ravens himself. I think after this Mat will be able to virtually call the shots forever. I don't think he would make Tuon wear one of the gauzey white robes and make her property, but who knows what he'll do.

[Eht Slat Meit]

And now you are speculating about Moiraine, before you have figured out how she can enter Ebou Dar without being leashed and her warder likely killed. You didn't wonder how a marath'damane can ever make an appointment with the Empress. Or didn't you realise that Tuon will probably remain in Ebou Dar until she takes a plane to the White Tower.

 

Or she could simply take a ride on the Elai'damane Express Gateways. Because the Seanchan have Travelling now.

 

It's quite literally that easy. Moraine and Thom have the Foremost Ta'veren in front of them, and it's rather unlikely that Mat's going to just let something like that fly. He does have some authority, and with that Horn, he has something even more precious to the Seanchan.

 

Artur Hawkwing himself.

[Thrasymachus]

Actually, Luckers, we don't know that Tuon hasn't been a practicing sul'dam long enough to be collared. I think the rule of thumb is, if the sul'dam can almost or actually see the flows being woven, she can be held. Tuon shows every indication of being able to see the flows.

[Suttree]

Actually, Luckers, we don't know that Tuon hasn't been a practicing sul'dam long enough to be collared. I think the rule of thumb is, if the sul'dam can almost or actually see the flows being woven, she can be held. Tuon shows every indication of being able to see the flows.

 

Maybe you are thinking of this quote?

Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

Regardless RJ has said you have to be a suldam for a very long time for it to work...

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough...

 

As Tuon only does it as a hobby(not a career as Sul'dam) I find it unlikely she would have worked enough to be held by the a'dam.

[Dream]

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough...

 

As Tuon only does it as a hobby(not a career as Sul'dam) I find it unlikely she would have worked enough to be held by the a'dam.

Tuon was able to train an Aes Sedai into a damane (Mylen) herself to the point that Teslyn told Mat to abandon her. This doesn't indicate that Tuon is close to touching the Source, maybe she just has excellent trainer skills, but I think it does show that Tuon takes her "hobby" seriously. Calling it her hobby is a serious and unfair underestimation of her abilities, IMO. Also, "a long time" is subjective and Tuon clearly has been a Sul'dam for longer than four months.

 

Having said that, I have to agree that it's unlikely the collar would work on her. She's been tested less than a year ago and Tuon is young enough that I don't think "a long time" (of anything, really) would apply to her. Still, it's possible and unlikely doesn't quite have the same meaning where Mat is involved.

[Byzantine279]

We know it is possible for a Sul'dam to accidentally channel if they think their life is in danger, much the same way a sparker can spark by their life being put in danger, as appears to have happened to Rand.

 

Now, if Tuon is at that point it is entirely foreseeable that she will, somehow, get into a situation where only channeling can save her, and will do so instinctively.

 

The question then becomes would she be able to, and that we can't quite answer. We know that over time Sul'dam get the ability to see weaves, and feel someone holding Saidar nearby, but we don't know exactly how much one has to know to be able to channel the first time as a learner without actively trying to do so. It seems pretty clear Tuon knows how to embrace the source, which might be all that is needed.

[Wantanswers]

I know Tuon is dead, but she didn't die in Ebou Dar. But why shouldn't I use that name; it is still a part of her full name. Or do you prefer a silly abbreviation like Forty.

 

I'm surprised that you didn't realize that I used plane as a metaphor for *raken.

 

Gateways, inverted waves.

Moiraine doesn't know those waves. She doesn't even know that those weaves are (re)discovered. Perhaps Thom could tell her, but then she still has to go to the White Tower, or more likely the Field of Merrilor, to learn them. Besides, inverted waves wouldn't help if she is tested with forkroot!

 

Fortuona on the other hand is hardly a fainting violet... she'll go where she's needed, and we know one of her goals is in making the Dragon kneel to her, which will doubtless bring her near Moiraine. Presuming, as I've stated, that Moiraine does not go to her.

The Dragon won't kneel to her. He will kneel before the Chrystal Throne. Tuon has interpreted the prophecies wrong. I know the Chrystal Throne is still in Seandar, but it can always been trensported to Randland by a gateway. (if Semi didn't destroy it.)

Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken; that the owner was a woman was as much as she could pick out of that, and not a thing more.

A lot of people think that the woman is Morgase and the chair is the Lion Throne. I don't agree with them, because she didn't show any anger. She showed that she hardly cared if Rand sat on that throne or not.

"I have heard as much," Morgase replied blithely. The lion is a dangerous animal to hunt, and the Lion Throne more so. Especially for man. It always kill man who seek it."

If that chair is the Chrystal Throne, it shouldn't be difficult to bind the Nine Moons.

 

I do not think it is a red herring. I think it is one piece of the puzzle. Rand is another, unless you rule out him binding the Nine Moons to serve him? Mat himself is a third, and Egwene a fourth, given the vision of the a'dam.

If you don't think this is a red herring why didn't try to find out how they can convince the Empress of the truth. It almost seems impossible now they are novices in the White Tower.

 

I have first analyzed what would happen if Kaisea c.s were leashed and send back to Ebou Dar. I think that would be disastrous. They can only reveal that all suldam are potential channelers and that the Empress is one of them. These suldamane behaved themselves stupid. They haven't learned anything, they haven't gathered any information. They only reveal to everybody information that Tuon and Selucia have kept secret.

 

When Joline, Teslyn, Edesina and company arrive in Tar Valon Egwene will soon be informed. We can be sure that she wants a personal report of the Aes Sedai. It's reasonable that she wants to get information of other members of the party as well and it's also reasonable to assume that she will soon know that Matt is married with the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She will also know that Seta, who once was her suldam, is one of the Seanchean novices. We haven't much more information, but we can try to find answers by reasoning.

 

Q: Will Egwene meet Bethamin and Seta?

A: Egwene has the most experience with Seanchan. She'll also want to know why 2 suldam came to the White Tower.

Q: Will they reveal that eventually Matt send them and why?

A: It's hard to hide anything for Egwene.

Q: Will Egwene help them?

A: They share the same goal.

Q: How can Egwene help them?

A: Learning them how to hide their channeling abilities.

Q: Why would this work with Bethamin and Seta, and not with Moiraine?

A: They can return as suldam. No one will force a suldam to drink forkroot.

Q: Will the Empress grant them an audience?

A: Perhaps. But if she does it will be a very short one. One question; one answer!

 

One answer isn't enough to convince Tuon of the truth, but she cannot question Bethamin and Seta publicly without revealing that all suldam can learn to channel. So I think that Tuon will ask them if they have news about her husband. If that is confirmed, she will have an excuse for a private meeting. By their coming Fortuona already got information. She knows that Bethamin and Seta can channel; she also knows that no unleashed channeler can enter Ebou Dar and reache the palace without being noticed. She will also wonder why none of the damane, who always surround her during an audience, have noticed their channeling ability.

 

I'm not interested in what they will tell to the Empress, for their actions will convince her.

They are not mad, they can think, they can even be wise, they came carefully, not revealing any secrets. They can learn and act without being forced with the a'dam. And last but not least they showed their loyalty to the Empire, risking their freedom, risking to be leashed. They have showed they are like ordinary people. They have showed they aren't animals.

 

I don't think Fortuona can be forced, just as Egwene couldn't be forced when she was held captive. These two ladies have a lot in common and I'm looking forward to their meeting.

"The Amyrlin curtsies to no one."

Neither does the Empress.