The Seanchan and Hawkwing

[Fliggerty]

I just had a thought occur to me that I can't stop wondering about now. I wonder what you guys all think of it. :D

 

So we know that Artur Hawkwing is one of the heroes that is called forth by the Horn of Valere. And it's pretty safe to assume that Mat will most likely blow the horn again during the last battle.

 

It's probably also safe to assume that Tuon and/or other high ranking Seanchan blood might be there...whether fighting for/with or against Rand.

 

So what do you think would happen if the Seanchan met Hakwing face to face? What if he went to Tuon and gave her some order or command? Is it feasible to assume that he would or could take over control of all the Seanchan forces? Would she submit to him?

[Alric]

Here's hoping that he'd slap some sense into them.

 

But he already met them at Falme, so I suspect he'll just follow Mat or Rand. He's probably lived more lives than his last one, so the connection might not matter that much to him.

 

 

[michael.clinton83]

Here's another one for you. What if Mat's quasi-death by Rhavin (undone by balefire) released his link to the Horn of Valere, and it can now be blown by someone else? What if Tuon blows the horn and takes command of Hawkwing and his army?

 

#ijustblewyourmind

[Alric]

Ouch. That might be material for another thread if there isn't one already, there's a risk that this one will derail completely on that topic...

[Alric]

Regarding Hawkwing, I very much suspect that he would disapprove of Seanchan society. When Luthair sailed out Hawkwing was under the influence of Ishy and we can certainly see the twisted results of that to this day.He wasn't himself then. But as I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure the Hawkwing that tied to the Horn would feel that strongly connected to his last life.But if he is, and I hope so, I would love to see him set things straight. 

 

 

[LeeM.Erickson]

There's been a lot of discussion about whether Mat is still bound to the Horn over the years. I'm inclined to think he is. Yes, he died, which would sever his connection to the Horn, but when Rahvin was killed, his lightning never killed Mat, therefore the connection was never severed.

[Byzantine279]

I suspect Hawkwing would just be very annoyed about the Seanchan, but then he has the benefit of having since learned his adviser was a forsaken manipulating him against the Aes Sedai, so...

[Arkane101]

There's been a lot of discussion about whether Mat is still bound to the Horn over the years. I'm inclined to think he is. Yes, he died, which would sever his connection to the Horn, but when Rahvin was killed, his lightning never killed Mat, therefore the connection was never severed.

ive always agreed to this sentiment, it doesnt matter anyway, everyone believes he is linked to the horn (that knows the horn has been found) therefore he will get the horn from Egwene, and he will blow it, that will relink him if he is no longer linked, which I am inclined to believe he is already linked anyway..

[kght22]

i still think mattin stepanaeos (probably spelled wrong) might somehow take the horn to illian. the great hunt tends to center on that nation, and before rand does what he needs to do, all the nations will need their own leaders that they respect. as for the link, mat might still be linked to it, but he also might not, i honestly don't know, but if egwene gives mattin the horn, and throws him a gateway and a few aes sedai, and him to illian, i don't think it would take much for him to gain firm control of the nation, crown or no crown. things are unlikely to play out in the way that any of us think, but i don't think the great hunt's connection to illian can be discounted yet.

[Fliggerty]

I think that the real nature of question centers around the Tuon and the Seanchan, not so much on Hawkwing. They seem to all but revere him, almost as a demigod rather than simply an ancestor. Isn't it likely that Tuon would see the apparition of Hawkwing himself as major omen of sorts? I can see such an event being a major game-changer on the part of the Seanchan should it occur.

[Shawnchan]

I think that the real nature of question centers around the Tuon and the Seanchan, not so much on Hawkwing. They seem to all but revere him, almost as a demigod rather than simply an ancestor. Isn't it likely that Tuon would see the apparition of Hawkwing himself as major omen of sorts? I can see such an event being a major game-changer on the part of the Seanchan should it occur.

 

 

Keep in mind that they must follow the Dragon Banner. And, the Dragon.

 

Sorry that was more towards "sealed to the flames'" comment.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4ktXZQtTvMC&pg=PA560&lpg=PA560&dq=the+Heroes+of+the+horn+must+follow+the+Dragon+banner.&source=bl&ots=ZzOxcqokLX&sig=kK_tLKJLFS5iS6DxFY-kO1ZFKfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MpIoT7CeAuaYiALWhdSnAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20Heroes%20of%20the%20horn%20must%20follow%20the%20Dragon%20banner.&f=false

[Asgard Thorin]

I think that the real nature of question centers around the Tuon and the Seanchan, not so much on Hawkwing. They seem to all but revere him, almost as a demigod rather than simply an ancestor. Isn't it likely that Tuon would see the apparition of Hawkwing himself as major omen of sorts? I can see such an event being a major game-changer on the part of the Seanchan should it occur.

 

 

Keep in mind that they must follow the Dragon Banner. And, the Dragon.

 

Sorry that was more towards "sealed to the flames'" comment.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4ktXZQtTvMC&pg=PA560&lpg=PA560&dq=the+Heroes+of+the+horn+must+follow+the+Dragon+banner.&source=bl&ots=ZzOxcqokLX&sig=kK_tLKJLFS5iS6DxFY-kO1ZFKfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MpIoT7CeAuaYiALWhdSnAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20Heroes%20of%20the%20horn%20must%20follow%20the%20Dragon%20banner.&f=false

 

I have to agree. Whoever blows the Horn, they have to follow the Dragon. They were prepared (I thought) to not help the Tav'eren Three until Perrin brought forth Rand's banner. As to the other question, I wouldn't be surprised if Mat uses the Horn to slap the Seanchan out of their stupor. "Well, fine, don't serve the Dragon as you were meant to, but let me bring your Founder back from the dead just to tell you the idiot you're being. Blood and Bloy ashes!" or something like that.

As to is Mat still linked to the Horn, I risk a definitive yes. As someone pointed out to me on another topic, though Mat died, balefire meant his death didn't happen. I'm not sure what MattinStepaneos' role is but somehow I think he'll swear and Rand will give him back his throne I'm not sure. I'm not sure how important it will be in the story, Mattin's fate. Aw, well. Always leave 'em wanting more is the old adage.

[Fliggerty]

I have to agree. Whoever blows the Horn, they have to follow the Dragon. They were prepared (I thought) to not help the Tav'eren Three until Perrin brought forth Rand's banner.

 

I'm not entirely sure about that TBH. Much of the basis of The Great Hunt is that others want the power and glory that blowing the horn brings. I seem to recall a mention that the horn falling into the hands of the dark can lead to tragic results if it was blown. If a darkfriend blew the horn and the heroes would immediately turn on them for the sake of serving the DR, it wouldn't have been quite the problem it was made out to be.

[Byzantine279]

I have to agree. Whoever blows the Horn, they have to follow the Dragon. They were prepared (I thought) to not help the Tav'eren Three until Perrin brought forth Rand's banner.

 

I'm not entirely sure about that TBH. Much of the basis of The Great Hunt is that others want the power and glory that blowing the horn brings. I seem to recall a mention that the horn falling into the hands of the dark can lead to tragic results if it was blown. If a darkfriend blew the horn and the heroes would immediately turn on them for the sake of serving the DR, it wouldn't have been quite the problem it was made out to be.

 

 

No, it wouldn't be, but then people didn't know about that stipulation, so they assumed that the heros followed whoever had blown the horn, which as it turned out was not accurate.

[Aliriel]

I think that the real nature of question centers around the Tuon and the Seanchan, not so much on Hawkwing. They seem to all but revere him, almost as a demigod rather than simply an ancestor. Isn't it likely that Tuon would see the apparition of Hawkwing himself as major omen of sorts? I can see such an event being a major game-changer on the part of the Seanchan should it occur.

 

 

Keep in mind that they must follow the Dragon Banner. And, the Dragon.

 

Sorry that was more towards "sealed to the flames'" comment.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4ktXZQtTvMC&pg=PA560&lpg=PA560&dq=the+Heroes+of+the+horn+must+follow+the+Dragon+banner.&source=bl&ots=ZzOxcqokLX&sig=kK_tLKJLFS5iS6DxFY-kO1ZFKfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MpIoT7CeAuaYiALWhdSnAQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20Heroes%20of%20the%20horn%20must%20follow%20the%20Dragon%20banner.&f=false

 

The question that keeps bugging me is, do they ALWAYS have to follow the Dragon banner, or is it just because the Dragon soul (Rand/LTT) has been spun again and Artur recongizes him?

 

Say Mat blows the Horn in TG, Hero's come and spank a few bottoms (ala Pennilor Feilds(spelling) in the LoTR's movies), day is saved and everyone sings the HappyHappy JoyJoy song for a couple of hundred years.

Then one day some personage decideds "stuff this" and changes the track to 'Lets All Start a War', goes and raids the Hero's of TG's tombs, pinches the Horn from Mat's statue (and lets say the Ashandrei as well), walks up to the leaders of the world and demands they grovel to him. They laugh at him so he starts a solo-rendition of Flight of the Bumblebee and good old Artur and Rand (as the most recient reincarnations) turn up, still coughing their loungs out because Gaidal just hotboxed T'A'R with the good stuff and look at their new master.

He commands them to attack and kill everyone, they then look at each other and say "Nah... You don't have the flag... Catch ya later" and disappear again... The ledgend would end up sounding pretty crappy in the end "The Horn of Valere, just a shiny trumpet unless you have the Dragon Banner"

 

A.

 

P.S: Sorry for the rambling, 81 hours and no sleep make Homer something something....

[Mr Ares]

The Heroes needed the Dragon and the banner on that one occasion, but there is no indication that this is always the case.