Rand crazy because

[chuckievi]

It could also be a semi combination of the two theories. Rand my have already been prone to hearing LTT's voice in his head, and the taint has just magnified the issue to the point where LTT can grab control. That is of course assuming that LTT is in fact grabbing control and its not Rand's personality doing those actions himself (think Fight Club)

 

Also its possible the reason Rand is experiencing LTT and no other seepage through is because Rand knows who LTT was, and that he is his soul reborn. While its purely conjecture, it may have acted as a lode stone for his personality.

 

Also, Luckers, while I agree that the simplest solution is usually correct, I am not sure we can totally abide by that rule since we are dealing with a made up situation. Since I am sure RJ thought about the madess and its cause, the solution may infact not be simple.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ockham's razor. That the simplest answer is usually correct.

 

A more accurate paraphrasing would include the phrase "All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually correct." That fist part is correct, because it means that outside evidence overcomes internal simplicity in an argument. In this case, the existence of pre-taint cases of the same illness, and the lack of the "voice" symptoms in cases of taint-madness (as recorded), make it more likely that the taint is uninvolved. In my opinion.

[chemteach1977]

Could someone post a complete quote of what Semmy says at the end of KoD? I am waiting for paperback and so do not yet own the book. :oops:

 

Given the quote you cited following this, it seems clear that the Lews Therin personality is real. Everyone knows its not a separate soul. But it is a separate distinct personality, with real memories from a previous life. The personality isn't caused or constructed by the madness, the madness is caused by the encroachment of another personality. And it's totally unrelated to the taint, which is now gone.

 

It may seem clear to you that the personality is real but it is no way stated by RJ in that quote. Fight Club is one bad bunny movie and also a good example of what i believe is going on.

 

I believe (based on my own personal biases and not on objective fact) that Rand has memories of his past incarnation "bubbling" up through the pattern. Similar to the Matt's pre-Finn experiences with the old-tongue etc. I believe the taint is increasing the rate at which these memories flow through. This could explain why Rand is able to create weaves with the power before "LTT" had even shown up in his head.

Obviously this is unsettling. Combine that with the immense stress Rand is facing and the biggest factor is Rand seeking to suppress nearly all his emotions. The result is a "new" personality in Rand's head that becomes the source for all these memories as well as the outlet for all of Rand's suppressed emotions. What does LTT do nearly all day every day? Weep and rage. Two things Rand will not allow himself to do anymore. The one time that LTT seems to disapear is after Rand lashes out at Cads and truly releases his anger. When he begins to control himself again, LTT shows back up.

Obviously the memoris Rand has are correct. The question is, did the LTT personality somehow come with? Or is Rand moving from schizophrenia to multiple personality disorder? We cannot be sure yet. I certainly understand why others believe what they do. (Luckers is probably even right) But i still think my theory is possible. RJ has misled us in the past and i think he is doing it again. The LTT personality is just too perfect as an outlet for Rand's suppressed emotions.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Obviously the memoris Rand has are correct. The question is, did the LTT personality somehow come with? Or is Rand moving from schizophrenia to multiple personality disorder?

 

The fact that the memories and weaves Rand has learned are accurate indicate something other than a "normal" multiple personality disorder. People with multiple personalities don't usually actually get to see the past, or learn information that could not have been obatined from contemporary sources. The accuracy of Lews Therin's information is a strong indication that he is more than a construct of Rand's mind.

[Luckers]

What Rand is suffering from would be described as multiple personality disorder in our world, though how a modern psychologist would deal with that other personality being a real personality from a past life, i dont know.

[Shinobi]

I think that also ltt is gaining more control because Rand enter the world of dreams in flesh and the wise ones said that you leave somthing of you behind everytime you do that so rand is losing part of his soul

[Luckers]

LTT is a part of Rand's soul, so if Rand is losing anything then so is LTT.

 

I personally doubt the validity of the Wise Ones comments... it sounds to me like a cultural belief not a real effect. Because the Forsaken used it for evil in the Age of Legends it is coming to be percieved as evil.

[Kaxen]

I think most would agree that the memories of experiences an weaves that Rand has learned from LTT's memories are completely real and not a construct of his mind from madness. I believe this to be somewhat like Mat was before the finns as chemteach1977 said. I think the memories an weaves of LTT's that Rand is learning are because they are the same soul and is not caused by the taint (or the taint causing madness).

 

As for the voice of LTT i would say that that is caused by the madness and is a something created by Rands mental instability, whether is be multiple personality disorder of skitzophrenia.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I personally doubt the validity of the Wise Ones comments... it sounds to me like a cultural belief not a real effect. Because the Forsaken used it for evil in the Age of Legends it is coming to be percieved as evil.

 

I agree.

[chemteach1977]

First of all ditto on the whole world of dreams thingy. Rand has not been in there long enough to lose his humanity.

 

The accuracy of Lews Therin's information is a strong indication that he is more than a construct of Rand's mind.

 

Again the point i am trying to make is that the memories and the personality do not necessarily go hand in hand. For one thing Rand "remembers" or invents weaves before LTT ever shows up. Rand did not somehow invent this personality and all its memories. I believe the memories came through first. Similar to the way the old blood (and tongue) leaks through to Matt before the dagger or the Finns. I think the only difference is Rand's memories are more potent. Maybe due to the taint, the nature of the dragon soul, Ishy's influence, who knows.

Now Rand has a few major psychological issues around the time of tSR or tFoH. He has the taint (and the accompanying concern about his sanity), he has these memories floating up telling him how to channel, and he has this desire to suppress nearly all his emotions.

Pretty much all those problems can be alleviated by creating another personality that:

a) is already completely nuts (which remember LTT was sane when he died)

b) encapsulates all the memories and personifies them

c) expresses all the emotions that Rand refuses

 

The fact that the info provided by LTT is accurate fits in just fine. I just think the info came first and then Rand's po' little brain invented LTT to handle the memories as well to handle all the emotions that Rand could not. How else do you explain where LTT went after Rand screamed at Cads?

 

Also could someone please either post Semirhage's quote at the end of KoD or a link where i could find it?

[RobertAlexWillis]

For reference:

 

From Knife of Dreams, chapter 27 A Plain Wooden Box (after Rand has identified Semirhage on sight and Casduane asks how he can be sure)

 

Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. "He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt." Her lips curves in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Again the point i am trying to make is that the memories and the personality do not necessarily go hand in hand.

 

Actually, a "personality" is simply the sum of its memories. Getting one means getting both. Subconscious memories did manifest first, but that in itself is the first manifestation of the madness. Rand's "po' little brain" couldn't invent personality that have comes with the memories, because they are the same thing.

[chemteach1977]

I will concede that my theory is mostly conjecture and runs contrary to what Rand believes and to what Semmy says. But i still have to respond to your last post.

 

Rand's "po' little brain" couldn't invent personality that have comes with the memories, because they are the same thing.

 

I completely disagree. Matt does not have hundreds of tiny little personality fragments floating around in his head. Our experiences can shape our personality to some degree but who we are is more than the sum of our memories. An amnesiac with no memory is not suddenly devoid of self. (there are ussually personality changes involved but they are not a result of amnesia but probably a secondary effect of the original brain injury)

 

Probably better to refer to a separate consciousness rather than personality. The old idea of "I think therefore, I am." I think we have 2 major options with a number of variations.

 

1. Rand is nuts and the LTT voice is similar to MPD where Rand has compartmentalized a portion of his emotions and self.

Problems: Does not explain where Rand gets his memories. Disagrees with what Rand believes and what Semmy says. More that i am sure others can list.

 

2. LTT has been somehow placed inside Rand's head from the outside.

Problems: Where has LTT's "consciousness" been hanging out? How did he get in Rand's head? Why is he crazy again if Ishy cured him? What makes him show up when he does?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ummmmmmmmmm...

 

You're all making the assumption that Jordan IS The Creator. All knowing. All wise. Infallible.

 

He's a storyteller. He needed a device to give Rand knowledge and abilities that he couldn't obtain on his own. He came up with the internalized ghost of LTT to fill that role.

 

That works for a trilogy that will be over before any of the readers have the time and thought to devote to analyzing all of the premises upon which the story is built.

 

It doesn't work for a saga that lasts for over 16 years and 12 or more volumes. We, the readers, have had too much time to think about the story, and, as a result, some of those simple premises upon which the whole edifice is built develop cracks and holes.

 

LTT is such a flawed device. No better and no worse than those many another storyteller has used. Best we accept him entirely as written and not look too closely or we surely find the man behind the curtain, and ruin the wonder of the experience for ourselves. He's in Rand's head because Jordan needed him to be. He's still crazy because Jordan needed for Rand to fear for his own sanity. He's unpredictable because Jordan needs to add suspense to everything Rand undertakes.

 

LTT is a puppet who was intended to be on and then offstage before anybody would notice the strings or question why they got pulled in this direction or that.

[Narg]

LTT cannot be from the taint that is for sure. if he was from the taint EVERY man who can channel would be hear LTT and you can be sure some would talk and then youd have 100s of false dragons. LTT could have came from the finns like matts memories or just because rand IS the dragon reborn. Rand is tainted for sure you can tell because whenever he draws the power he gets sick but that could be from exhaustion.i do agree rand needs to go to trmelking for some days on the beach.

[Luckers]

The Taint is not a mental state, it simply destabalizing the mind allowing for any number of symptoms. Therefore your argument that every man who could channel would hear LTT is utterly falacious. We have seen the degree to which the difference between the effect of the taint on one man to another, it isn't comprable.

[chemteach1977]

Anyway, if other male channelers hear voices it would be from their own past life/lives. Rand is probably the only dragon reborn so only one that tunes in LTT.

[Narg]

chem just proved me right by sayinbg its his soul. by saying that its from thier past luives menaing their soul. and even if everybody else is differant how many male channels are there now 1thousand one of them would be hearing LTT if it was the taint

[RobertAlexWillis]

An amnesiac with no memory is not suddenly devoid of self. (there are ussually personality changes involved but they are not a result of amnesia but probably a secondary effect of the original brain injury)

 

Amnesia is not total memory loss. And since you admit that there are personality changes involved in even partial memory loss (although you move them aside to some "probable" secondary effect that you can't specify) you're essentially making my point for me.

 

Frankly, we're getting down to definitions here. Not everyone is using the terms "personality", "soul", "consciousness", and "memory" the same way, AND we're talking about a phenomenon for which there are no real-world documented parallels.

[chemteach1977]

What's interesting to me is that the memories arrive much earlier than the LTT voice. Rand remembers other names for heroes of the horn. He remembers many different weaves including balefire, the fiery sword, etc. All of this occurs books before the first encounter with LTT.

[racha_giurgiu]

chem just proved me right by sayinbg its his soul. by saying that its from thier past luives menaing their soul. and even if everybody else is differant how many male channels are there now 1thousand one of them would be hearing LTT if it was the taint

 

In order for that to be true, all the current channelers would be reincarnation of LTT. As I understand reincarnation, one person gets one soul. The Dragon Reborn gets the soul of the Dragon, LTT. Joe Shmo Reborn channeler gets the soul of Joe Schmo from a past life. Just because another man can channel, that does not necessitate that the soul in the living person is that of LTT.

[Paladin]

I keep on remembering that Rand is not the only one who learns weaves without being taught. In TGH Egwene & Elayne learn how to tie weaves from each other without ever being taught how. and Balefire is very much forbidden and never taught in the white tower yet Nynaeve uses it in TDR to kill the three myrdraal. Where did they learn this? it seems unlikely that everyone who can channel has a past life hanging around teaching them things. to me it makes sense that the stronger you are in the power the easier it is to use. Rand admits to being able to do things with fire without even thinking about it (TDR when Egwene "hands him over" to Elayne). Also Nynaeve is one of the most powerfull healers yet she has never been taught healing.All of this points out to me that the stronger you are the easier it is to work with the power. So the new weaves themselves cannot be used to prove LTT's existence. Personally I believe that LTT is real for a very diffrent reason. Rands memories of the Forsaken. Rand knows what tactics to use against Rhavin & Samael this is the kind of information that could not have been learned from books or any other source than someone who knew these people. Rand also recognises the forsaken on sight (See end of KOD). He also learns some other skills like drawing (in Far Madding Rand says that he can draw all the renegades that he is hunting) this is something that Rand could not do before LTT arrived.

 

So in my Oppinion LTT is real, but not because of the new weaves that rand is learning everyday.

[Mr Ares]

Ummmmmmmmmm...

 

You're all making the assumption that Jordan IS The Creator. All knowing. All wise. Infallible.

 

He's a storyteller. He needed a device to give Rand knowledge and abilities that he couldn't obtain on his own. He came up with the internalized ghost of LTT to fill that role.

 

That works for a trilogy that will be over before any of the readers have the time and thought to devote to analyzing all of the premises upon which the story is built.

 

It doesn't work for a saga that lasts for over 16 years and 12 or more volumes. We, the readers, have had too much time to think about the story, and, as a result, some of those simple premises upon which the whole edifice is built develop cracks and holes.

 

LTT is such a flawed device. No better and no worse than those many another storyteller has used. Best we accept him entirely as written and not look too closely or we surely find the man behind the curtain, and ruin the wonder of the experience for ourselves. He's in Rand's head because Jordan needed him to be. He's still crazy because Jordan needed for Rand to fear for his own sanity. He's unpredictable because Jordan needs to add suspense to everything Rand undertakes.

 

LTT is a puppet who was intended to be on and then offstage before anybody would notice the strings or question why they got pulled in this direction or that.

 

LTT didn't appear until after the trilogy was done - After The Dragon Reborn.

 

I keep on remembering that Rand is not the only one who learns weaves without being taught. In TGH Egwene & Elayne learn how to tie weaves from each other without ever being taught how. and Balefire is very much forbidden and never taught in the white tower yet Nynaeve uses it in TDR to kill the three myrdraal. Where did they learn this? it seems unlikely that everyone who can channel has a past life hanging around teaching them things. to me it makes sense that the stronger you are in the power the easier it is to use. Rand admits to being able to do things with fire without even thinking about it (TDR when Egwene "hands him over" to Elayne). Also Nynaeve is one of the most powerfull healers yet she has never been taught healing.All of this points out to me that the stronger you are the easier it is to work with the power. So the new weaves themselves cannot be used to prove LTT's existence.

 

People are capable of figuring things out for themselves basically. If what you say is correct then the stronger you are the easier this is... And Rand is the strongest channeler going. So it is easy enough to accept that except for things we know were taught by Asmodean or Lews Therin, everything Rand does is stuff that he figured out for himself. No (extra) magic needed for a solution.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The "trilogy" was never written.

 

Sometime after the first book, Jordan and Tor decided to expand the series. By the time the third volume was done, Jordan was estimating it would run to five or six volumes. When Six was done he thought it might take two more.

 

And, so it has gone.

 

When LTT was introduced as the ghost in Rand's head, Jordan believed he'd only be around for a volume or two, and nobody would have time to look into the particulars of how his character was written. Like many things throughout the series, all of that changed as the series expanded.

[chemteach1977]

What about Rand remembering all the different names for the hunters of the horn? Or Matt's pre-dagger flashes of the old tongue? Memories seem to leak through without the need for separate personalities taking up residence.