Ages

[Leyrann]

I assumed the Age of Legends was the Second Age, Rand's Age the Third Age, and the Age after that the Fourth Age. So far, I think that we all agree. Let's not talk about "our" Age now, because that's not what I want to talk about.

 

What I want to say, is that Herid Fel, in LoC chapter 18 calls the Age of Legends tree times the Third Age, and even wonders if they called it the Third Age too. I do not believe this is a translation mistake made three times on the same page. So either we are wrong, RJ was wrong here, or Herid Fel just thinks about it wrong. Actually, I think that it could be the first. What do you say about it?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

we're wrong

[Suttree]

LoC Ch 18

 

"No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ."

 

Here is the quote for ref...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

so is he referring to the age of legends there?

[Shai-tan]

The opening of all the books says in the paragraph we all know so well:

 

"In one Age, called the Third Age by some....."

 

 

"by some"

[LeeM.Erickson]

It looks like he is, since he's talking about before the Bore was sealed.

 

But I still think the Age of Legends is meant to be the Second Age. The Forsaken sure seem to think "current times" are a different Age, and the phrase "Age before the Age of Legends" has been used before, which again implies the Age of Legends and the time taking place in the books are of different Ages. But I've seen it argued a lot. This is something I'd like to get confirmation of from BS.

[tamoni]

I assumed the Age of Legends was the Second Age, Rand's Age the Third Age, and the Age after that the Fourth Age. So far, I think that we all agree. Let's not talk about "our" Age now, because that's not what I want to talk about.

 

What I want to say, is that Herid Fel, in LoC chapter 18 calls the Age of Legends tree times the Third Age, and even wonders if they called it the Third Age too. I do not believe this is a translation mistake made three times on the same page. So either we are wrong, RJ was wrong here, or Herid Fel just thinks about it wrong. Actually, I think that it could be the first. What do you say about it?

 

I was wondering the same. Here my previous post and answer from the one question/one answer thread:

 

Hello, long time lurker, first post:

So, what has been bothering for some time is Herid Fel, when talking to Rand in LoC about the seals, he says:

LoC, chapter 18

"No, it [the DO's prison] was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more".

Why should the DO's prison be whole again in the Third Age? Shouldn't it rather be the Age of Legends?

 

I guess this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any posts on it.

Possible answers: mistake from RJ (if so, it would likely have been corrected in later printings), mistake from Fel, the AoL is part of the Third Age (note that it is never referenced as the Second Age, not ir the "Age Before the Age of Legends ever called the First). Pick whichever answer you prefer.

 

Hey Mr. Ares, thanks for your answer!

My copy is a reprint from the 1995 LoC edition, so I don't know if it has been corrected in later editions? And in the Glossary, it's stated: "Age of Legends: Age ended by the War of Shadow and the Breaking of the World". The name "Third Age" clearly implies that there were two other Ages before, and IMHO it wouldn't make any sense for Herid Fel (as a scholar and as someone clearly familiar with the concept of the Wheel and Ages) to refer to the current Age as the Third Age without knowing the names of the two ages that came before the Third Age. I mean, there has to be a reason why it's called the Third Age!

[Netbattler11]

I don't think he's talking about the Age of Legends in that paragraph. He's wondering if they called it the Third Age during the last time the current Age spun around the wheel and if they will when this Age comes again.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

that's what i was thinking

[tamoni]

I agree that the "I wonder if they called it the Third Age" refers to the people in the "previous Third Age".

But that still doesn't explain why Fel insists that the DO's prison must be whole again at the beginning of the Third Age instead of at the beginning of the Second Age/Age of Legends.

Moreover, this whole Fel paragraph is a contradiction to the concept of the Wheel of Time, where there are no "beginnings nor endings". Acccording to Fel, there needs to be a beginning, i.e. when the Creator put the DO in prison. No one apart from the Creator can make the DO's prison whole. Fel thinks that the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

[Suttree]

Moreover, this whole Fel paragraph is a contradiction to the concept of the Wheel of Time, where there are no "beginnings nor endings". Acccording to Fel, there needs to be a beginning, i.e. when the Creator put the DO in prison. No one apart from the Creator can make the DO's prison whole. Fel thinks that the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

 

Well yes there was a beginning at the moment of creation. Maybe since Rand can not do it quite as good as the Creator that is how the "thinness" is detected next time around.

 

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

 

It actually fits totally with the concept. It' why I always chuckle when someone on the boards gets all adamant saying "no this IS the Last Battle!"

[vanceme]

I always assumed the AOL and Randtime were one age. They remember too much of the AOL for it to be a previous age. I can see the characters thinking of AOL as a previous "age" but so much of the world set up is the same. I mean, thinking about Ishydin having lived through 20% of one age and 70% of another age... doesn't seem right. Also, doesn't Brigette set a good example of people being reborn multiple times in one age?

[tamoni]

Well yes there was a beginning at the moment of creation. Maybe since Rand can not do it quite as good as the Creator that is how the "thinness" is detected next time around.

 

I thought that the "thinness" resulted from the drilling of the bore, and not vice versa?

[Suttree]

Well yes there was a beginning at the moment of creation. Maybe since Rand can not do it quite as good as the Creator that is how the "thinness" is detected next time around.

 

I thought that the "thinness" resulted from the drilling of the bore, and not vice versa?

 

No they detected a thinness, that is why they drilled in the first place to SG.

 

BWB

They had discovered a thin place in the Pattern that appeared to cover an undivided source of the One Power separate from the True Source. This energy did not appear to follow the conventional restrictions of the Power, in that it gave indications of being usable by men and women equally. Such a source, available without limitations, would allow men and women to unite in ways previously impossible. Aes Sedai would be able to perform feats well beyond existing capabilities. It was apparently inaccessible by the means used for the One Power, but they had only to bore a small hole in the Pattern to tap it. Using the One Power, in what was, they hoped, the last time saidin and saidar would be separated, Mierin and the team bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations.

 

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the Pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore.

[Dagon Thyne]

I have heard some people claim that the AOL was actually the first age and that the second age was the time after the Bore was made, during the war of power and other things prior to the breaking.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I always assumed the AOL and Randtime were one age. They remember too much of the AOL for it to be a previous age. I can see the characters thinking of AOL as a previous "age" but so much of the world set up is the same. I mean, thinking about Ishydin having lived through 20% of one age and 70% of another age... doesn't seem right. Also, doesn't Brigette set a good example of people being reborn multiple times in one age?

 

This is exactly why I find this topic frustrating. There's too much about the Ages we don't know. There's nothing to indicate that there's any sort of average length of time for Ages. Who's to say "they remember too much of the AOL for it to be a previous Age"? Like what is that based on? There's certainly nothing to indicate that everything is forgotten from one Age to another. In fact, the infamous opening paragraph only indicates that myth will be forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again...ie, a complete turning of the Wheel. The point is, we don't have much to compare. I'm inclined to believe the Age of Legends is the Second Age. That glossary quote does a lot to convince me, as the glossary information isn't really subject to wrong/misinformation the way some of the characters are (that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong by all means).

 

As far as the creation of the Wheel goes, I firmly believe this will remain a paradox unless Sanderson ever decides to weigh in (and on this type of subject he'd probably stay mum). Sure, there are plenty of times where we're told the Creator created the Wheel of Time, but at the beginning of every book we're told there are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel. If the Creator created the Wheel, there was a beginning. But the book says there are no beginnings. These two statements are irreconcilable barring more information. You can theorize, sure, like the idea of a Big Bang/Big Crunch universe that is destroyed and created eternally (which does solve some questions). But there's not much to prove one way or the other. Most of this type of questioning Wheel of Time cosmology is totally speculative with how little we know from the books and other resources like the Guide and the various RJ/BS interviews.

[Dagon Thyne]

I always assumed the AOL and Randtime were one age. They remember too much of the AOL for it to be a previous age. I can see the characters thinking of AOL as a previous "age" but so much of the world set up is the same. I mean, thinking about Ishydin having lived through 20% of one age and 70% of another age... doesn't seem right. Also, doesn't Brigette set a good example of people being reborn multiple times in one age?

 

This is exactly why I find this topic frustrating. There's too much about the Ages we don't know. There's nothing to indicate that there's any sort of average length of time for Ages. Who's to say "they remember too much of the AOL for it to be a previous Age"? Like what is that based on? There's certainly nothing to indicate that everything is forgotten from one Age to another. In fact, the infamous opening paragraph only indicates that myth will be forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again...ie, a complete turning of the Wheel. The point is, we don't have much to compare. I'm inclined to believe the Age of Legends is the Second Age. That glossary quote does a lot to convince me, as the glossary information isn't really subject to wrong/misinformation the way some of the characters are (that I can recall, correct me if I'm wrong by all means).

 

As far as the creation of the Wheel goes, I firmly believe this will remain a paradox unless Sanderson ever decides to weigh in (and on this type of subject he'd probably stay mum). Sure, there are plenty of times where we're told the Creator created the Wheel of Time, but at the beginning of every book we're told there are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel. If the Creator created the Wheel, there was a beginning. But the book says there are no beginnings. These two statements are irreconcilable barring more information. You can theorize, sure, like the idea of a Big Bang/Big Crunch universe that is destroyed and created eternally (which does solve some questions). But there's not much to prove one way or the other. Most of this type of questioning Wheel of Time cosmology is totally speculative with how little we know from the books and other resources like the Guide and the various RJ/BS interviews.

 

Alot of the stories mentioned are actually from the ages prior to the AOL......Even the horn of valere came before.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Alot of the stories mentioned are actually from the ages prior to the AOL......Even the horn of valere came before.

 

Exactly, that's the point I was trying to make. Obviously a lot of Thom's stories are as well. To be clear, I agree with the OP's assessment that the Age of Legends is the Second Age, Randland the Third, and the bits and pieces of writing we see at the beginning and ending of books are from the Fourth. I was arguing against the poster who claimed that the AOL and the Third Age are the same because the Third Age knows "too much" about the Age of Legends for it to be a previous Age. I think this is false. Obviously the Fourth Age knows things abut the Third, given that all the Fourth Age writings we are privy to are about the Dragon Reborn.

[Suttree]

The opening of all the books says in the paragraph we all know so well:

 

"In one Age, called the Third Age by some....."

 

 

"by some"

 

Yup...

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

[tamoni]

BWB

They had discovered a thin place in the Pattern that appeared to cover an undivided source of the One Power separate from the True Source. This energy did not appear to follow the conventional restrictions of the Power, in that it gave indications of being usable by men and women equally. Such a source, available without limitations, would allow men and women to unite in ways previously impossible. Aes Sedai would be able to perform feats well beyond existing capabilities. It was apparently inaccessible by the means used for the One Power, but they had only to bore a small hole in the Pattern to tap it. Using the One Power, in what was, they hoped, the last time saidin and saidar would be separated, Mierin and the team bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations.

 

Ah! Thanks for clarifying.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

 

 

I would understand if most Randworld-people didn't know that they live in another Age than the Age of Legends, or if even Herid Fel thought it was still the same Age. But then why call it the Third Age? What then are the other Ages? And it'd be understandable if the other Randlanders never wasted a thought on why it's the Third Age, but Herid Fel, introduced by R.J. as the expert on matters of the Wheel, the seals and WOT philosphy should know better.

[Mr Ares]

This is something I'd like to get confirmation of from BS.

It's something I'd like to see a decent explanation from BS for. Note explanation rather than confirmation - him just giving a yes or no with no support isn't good enough.

 

 

Moreover, this whole Fel paragraph is a contradiction to the concept of the Wheel of Time, where there are no "beginnings nor endings". Acccording to Fel, there needs to be a beginning, i.e. when the Creator put the DO in prison. No one apart from the Creator can make the DO's prison whole. Fel thinks that the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

No beginnings or endings depends entirely on how you look at things - when it was created, it was created with an infinite past.

 

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

 

 

I would understand if most Randworld-people didn't know that they live in another Age than the Age of Legends, or if even Herid Fel thought it was still the same Age. But then why call it the Third Age? What then are the other Ages? And it'd be understandable if the other Randlanders never wasted a thought on why it's the Third Age, but Herid Fel, introduced by R.J. as the expert on matters of the Wheel, the seals and WOT philosphy should know better.

There are seven Ages to the Wheel. Those Ages are not necessarily given a strict start and end point of a cycle - it might be that there is no objective first Age, just whichever Age happens to be labelled as such. One could decide that the AoL was the Third Age, and that the current Age was the Fourth, for example. As for knwoing it when you see it, given that the current Age is essentially a continuation of the AoL (Rand is finishing up the job started then, the Chosen are the same, many Talents were the same across Ages, there was nothing new - the only change was really the Breaking, which is only different from the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years in scale.

[Rose]

 

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

 

 

I would understand if most Randworld-people didn't know that they live in another Age than the Age of Legends, or if even Herid Fel thought it was still the same Age. But then why call it the Third Age? What then are the other Ages? And it'd be understandable if the other Randlanders never wasted a thought on why it's the Third Age, but Herid Fel, introduced by R.J. as the expert on matters of the Wheel, the seals and WOT philosphy should know better.

There are seven Ages to the Wheel. Those Ages are not necessarily given a strict start and end point of a cycle - it might be that there is no objective first Age, just whichever Age happens to be labelled as such. One could decide that the AoL was the Third Age, and that the current Age was the Fourth, for example. As for knwoing it when you see it, given that the current Age is essentially a continuation of the AoL (Rand is finishing up the job started then, the Chosen are the same, many Talents were the same across Ages, there was nothing new - the only change was really the Breaking, which is only different from the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years in scale.

 

Yes, it being a cycle with no beginning and no end implies that there is no objective "first" age and "last" age. When the 7th Age ends, the 1st comes right after it. And because each age is so long, nobody even remember anything two ages before their own, so how could they tell which age they are in? They can't. It's just convention and speculation.

 

And creation of the world by the Creator does not count as a beginning: The Creator exists outside of time. Before there was a Wheel, there was no time. So in the sentence I just wrote, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "before" the Wheel. There wasn't a before, or an after, because time did not exist. And then suddenly the Wheel was there, and because there was no time "before" it, you could say it always existed, with its seven spokes. And time was flowing, not in a line like we think about it, but in a circle. It's hard to wrap our heads about that because it goes against all our instincts, but I think that's how it's meant to be understood.

[master]

Yes, it being a cycle with no beginning and no end implies that there is no objective "first" age and "last" age. When the 7th Age ends, the 1st comes right after it. And because each age is so long, nobody even remember anything two ages before their own, so how could they tell which age they are in? They can't. It's just convention and speculation.

 

And creation of the world by the Creator does not count as a beginning: The Creator exists outside of time. Before there was a Wheel, there was no time. So in the sentence I just wrote, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "before" the Wheel. There wasn't a before, or an after, because time did not exist. And then suddenly the Wheel was there, and because there was no time "before" it, you could say it always existed, with its seven spokes. And time was flowing, not in a line like we think about it, but in a circle. It's hard to wrap our heads about that because it goes against all our instincts, but I think that's how it's meant to be understood.

 

The type of stuff makes me feel a bit sick. If there is no point in creation when did the do get sealed? Has he always been sealed? How can time have no beginning, infinity doesnt make that much sense? But if there is no time than what the heck was there? ugh.

[Rose]

Yes, it being a cycle with no beginning and no end implies that there is no objective "first" age and "last" age. When the 7th Age ends, the 1st comes right after it. And because each age is so long, nobody even remember anything two ages before their own, so how could they tell which age they are in? They can't. It's just convention and speculation.

 

And creation of the world by the Creator does not count as a beginning: The Creator exists outside of time. Before there was a Wheel, there was no time. So in the sentence I just wrote, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "before" the Wheel. There wasn't a before, or an after, because time did not exist. And then suddenly the Wheel was there, and because there was no time "before" it, you could say it always existed, with its seven spokes. And time was flowing, not in a line like we think about it, but in a circle. It's hard to wrap our heads about that because it goes against all our instincts, but I think that's how it's meant to be understood.

 

The type of stuff makes me feel a bit sick. If there is no point in creation when did the do get sealed? Has he always been sealed? How can time have no beginning, infinity doesnt make that much sense? But if there is no time than what the heck was there? ugh.

 

The DO got sealed when the Wheel was created, which is also "when" time started existing, which means that he was always sealed. Without a Wheel, there was no need for him to be sealed anyway, right?

 

And in the Wheel of Time, the fact that time has no beginning is the basic premise of the world. There are neither beginnings nor ends to the turnings of the Wheel. Because you can go back in time as much as you want: it's circular, so you'll always be able to keep going.

 

And if there was no time... I dunno, I would guess that the Creator does not need time to exist, but as far as we are concerned, there was nothing, because without time nothing makes sense.

[Leyrann]

This is something I'd like to get confirmation of from BS.

It's something I'd like to see a decent explanation from BS for. Note explanation rather than confirmation - him just giving a yes or no with no support isn't good enough.

 

 

Moreover, this whole Fel paragraph is a contradiction to the concept of the Wheel of Time, where there are no "beginnings nor endings". Acccording to Fel, there needs to be a beginning, i.e. when the Creator put the DO in prison. No one apart from the Creator can make the DO's prison whole. Fel thinks that the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

No beginnings or endings depends entirely on how you look at things - when it was created, it was created with an infinite past.

 

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

 

 

I would understand if most Randworld-people didn't know that they live in another Age than the Age of Legends, or if even Herid Fel thought it was still the same Age. But then why call it the Third Age? What then are the other Ages? And it'd be understandable if the other Randlanders never wasted a thought on why it's the Third Age, but Herid Fel, introduced by R.J. as the expert on matters of the Wheel, the seals and WOT philosphy should know better.

There are seven Ages to the Wheel. Those Ages are not necessarily given a strict start and end point of a cycle - it might be that there is no objective first Age, just whichever Age happens to be labelled as such. One could decide that the AoL was the Third Age, and that the current Age was the Fourth, for example. As for knwoing it when you see it, given that the current Age is essentially a continuation of the AoL (Rand is finishing up the job started then, the Chosen are the same, many Talents were the same across Ages, there was nothing new - the only change was really the Breaking, which is only different from the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years in scale.

 

Don't forget that Saidin got tainted. Would that just happen in the middle of an Age?

 

 

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: Other than the Third Age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?

RJ: Some call the current age the Third Age. (He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don't fit a certain set of criteria, but you'll know it when you see it.)

 

 

I would understand if most Randworld-people didn't know that they live in another Age than the Age of Legends, or if even Herid Fel thought it was still the same Age. But then why call it the Third Age? What then are the other Ages? And it'd be understandable if the other Randlanders never wasted a thought on why it's the Third Age, but Herid Fel, introduced by R.J. as the expert on matters of the Wheel, the seals and WOT philosphy should know better.

There are seven Ages to the Wheel. Those Ages are not necessarily given a strict start and end point of a cycle - it might be that there is no objective first Age, just whichever Age happens to be labelled as such. One could decide that the AoL was the Third Age, and that the current Age was the Fourth, for example. As for knwoing it when you see it, given that the current Age is essentially a continuation of the AoL (Rand is finishing up the job started then, the Chosen are the same, many Talents were the same across Ages, there was nothing new - the only change was really the Breaking, which is only different from the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years in scale.

 

Yes, it being a cycle with no beginning and no end implies that there is no objective "first" age and "last" age. When the 7th Age ends, the 1st comes right after it. And because each age is so long, nobody even remember anything two ages before their own, so how could they tell which age they are in? They can't. It's just convention and speculation.

 

Actually, each Age will still have a dfferent name. After this Age, people will say "that one is called the Third, this one is called the Fourth.