Sammuel and Taim

[skalors3]

Do you think that it is possible that Sammuel and Taim switched positions? All throughout the books Sammuel seemed dead set on the fact that he would be at Tarmon Gaidan against Rand. It would seem logical that to do so, he would not have to bother Rand or his plans. That doesn't fit well with the fact that he was out in the open in Illian for such a long time.

 

Here are a few things that lead me to my thought process:

 

Taim is very much like Sammuel (from what we know about his relationship with LTT).

 

Taim, when Dashiva was chosen to go along with Rand, seemed taken back. It seemed to me that he knew who Dashiva was. Granted, he could have been taking orders from Dashiva, but we don't really know.

 

Third, it seemed strange that when Sammuel was fleeing, that he fled to Shayol Ghul (SP?). The place is a death trap and he of all people should have known that. My thoughts on this could be that the fake (if he was fake) Sammuel was instructed to go there as bait for Rand where someone would be there to help him.

[Thor]

I also don't know why Sammual ran there, it was kind of dumb (probably a plot device).

 

But Samual is not Taim, Samual is probably too short and hence any illusion will be very weak and hence almost impossible to maintain.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here's some conjecture for you.

 

In "The Eye of the World", the Good Guys are being hounded ( pun intended ) from the time they leave the Two Rivers until they take refuge in Shadar Logoth. There, with the unintended help of Mashadar, they enjoy their first real victory over the forces of the Dark.

 

I've contended, all along, that the Forsaken in charge of that harrassment, and the one who drove the Myrddraal and Trollocs into Shadar Logoth where they were consumed, was Sammael.

 

He picks Shadar Logoth as the site for his final confrontation with Rand, because, as Moridin ( or is it really him? ) says when he's helping Rand out of the pit, Sammael likes to defeat his enemies at the site of their victories. Who would know where Rand had been victorious better than the man he had defeated?

 

So, SL is the site of their confrontation due to nothing more than Sam's vanity.

[chemteach1977]

Sammael folks Sammael.

 

Anyway, didn't Sam have some traps set up around SL? I do not have books around me but i thought SL was his contingency plan. IIRC Rand fell into a trap that Sammael had set and would have been toast if Ishydin had not saved his bacon.

I'm sure he felt he stood a better chance of surviving SL than Rand. And without Moridin's interference, he was probably right.

[skalors3]

I have two comments to build on what was said.

 

The first is whether or not Sammael was free from the DO's prison during the time of Eye of the World. To me, it seems unlikely considering what we knew of the forsaken during TGH.

 

However, Sammael did lose a battle at SL to LTT. That was when he was sealed in the DO's prison. Your point is well taken.

 

It just doesn't sit well with me. It could be easily argued that Sammael himself set those traps up in connection with a trap he was laying for the other his impersonator. I mean, we have always assumed that it was Moridin that saved Rand, but was it really? Sammael himself stated that he wanted Rand to live until Tarmon Gaidan.

 

I have always read into Sammael as vain. He felt that LTTs victories could not be achieved without his assistance. What better way to prove that than to build a black tower around himself to fight with Rand, and at the last moment, turn them against him?

[Jellybelly]

I say this with all possible respect: some of you people really need to read those books again.

[BetrayerofHope]

First of all, they were sealed at Shayol Ghul, not Shadar Logoth.

 

Second, it was without a doubt Moridin that helped Rand out of the pit, especially now that the balefire connection is confirmed and because of Min's viewings.

 

Sammael wanted to defeat Rand near the waygate not because he was defeated there, but because Rand had a victory there with his nasty waygate ward.

[skalors3]

Ok, I obviously need to re-read some things. Though I don't remember any victories regarding waygates. I may be wrong though. Maybe you could enlighten me. I still think it could be a possibility. Taim and Sammael seem to much alike.

[BetrayerofHope]

Ok' date=' I obviously need to re-read some things. Though I don't remember any victories regarding waygates. I may be wrong though. Maybe you could enlighten me. I still think it could be a possibility. Taim and Sammael seem to much alike.[/quote']

 

TEOTW: 50, Meetings at the Eye, 628], Aginor says, "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh..."

 

At this point it seems to me very very liklely that Aginor Balthamel and Ishamael are the only ones released. And remember, the confrontation at the eye took place at least a month or two after the Shadar Logoth incident. It seems highly unlikely that Sammael who was released fully healthy (thus sealed lower) was around soon enough to have taken parts in the events of Shadar Logoth in the first book. Also, Fain makes reference to an image of Ba'alzamon forcing the halfmen and trollocs into Shadar Logoth, not Sammael.

[chuckievi]

No, you need to reread pretty much the whole series.

 

First, Shadar Logoth didn't even exist when LTT sealed the bore with his 100 companions, its a city from the Trolloc wars.

 

Second, Rand put a ward on the waygate in Shadar Logoth so that any Trollocs/shadowspawn that came through it would die shortly after, thus eliminating the waygate from the shadow's devices.

[Luckers]

Sammael was the one at Shadar Logoth, and the one who died there. This has been confirmed by RJ.

[cannon]

RJ has also confirmed that Aginor and Bathamel were the first ones freed and that they went directly for the Eye of the World. This means the rest of the forsaken (minus Ishamael of course) were NOT free during TEOTW.

 

* I've been looking all over trying to find the source for this, but I'm absolutely positive I read it. Either a QotW or a book signing statement or a Q&A. Does anyone have the link?

[Jellybelly]

Check out the FAQ at WotMania. Those guys keep quite extensive archives, and there are lots of interesting tidbits buried there. The "from the mouth of the creator" section probably holds what you are looking for.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faq.asp

[icspots]

Do you think that it is possible that Sammuel and Taim switched positions?

 

No. Sammael's dead, and that's confirmed by RJ by direct quote in plain english, "Sammael's Toast, he's not coming back."

 

that he fled to Shayol Ghul

 

He fled to Shadar Logoth not Shayol Ghul. Shayol Ghul is where the pit of doom, Thankan'dar, etc. are. He fled there because he always liked to defeat someone in a place where they'd had a victory

 

But Samual is not Taim, Samual is probably too short and hence any illusion will be very weak and hence almost impossible to maintain.

 

Illusion can be maintained if the person is adept enough with it. See where Sammael posed as Caddar when dealing with Sevanna and the Shaido, or when Lanfear posed as Keille in the waste, or when Semirrhage posed as Tuon.

 

 

 

Here's some conjecture for you.

 

In "The Eye of the World", the Good Guys are being hounded ( pun intended ) from the time they leave the Two Rivers until they take refuge in Shadar Logoth. There, with the unintended help of Mashadar, they enjoy their first real victory over the forces of the Dark.

 

 

I wouldn't really say that was their first victory. There was the whole 'killing lots of Trollocs' in Emonds Field on Winternight with the assistance of Moiraine and Lan, plus Rand gutting his first Trolloc at the farm house. Beyond that it was more Mashadar killing the Trollocs while they bumbled around aimlessley than the good guys.

 

I've contended, all along, that the Forsaken in charge of that harrassment, and the one who drove the Myrddraal and Trollocs into Shadar Logoth where they were consumed, was Sammael.

 

There are a couple of points against that. 1) As was previously mentioned Sammael wasn't released from the seal on the DO's prison at that point. 2) Moiraine learned from her interrogation of Padan Fain at Fal Dara that he saw Ba'alzamon appear in the air at Shadar Logoth and drive the Fades/Trollocs in. So Ishammael, not Sammael.

 

I say this with all possible respect: some of you people really need to read those books again.

 

All people should read the books again. And again, and again. :P

[Thor]

I just want to say that I don't remember reading at all about LTT and Sammael fighting anywhere near SL, so you better give me a diretion to look.

 

And I know that Rand trapped the waygate, but then, he trapped a whole bunch of waygates so why SL?

 

Heck, he could have gone to tear instead. Ofcourse, he was probably a coward and didn't dare risk running into rand by accident. He who takes no risks is bound to fail.

[skalors3]

Where is the quote from RJ regarding Sammael being "toast." I remember him saying something similar about Asmodean, but never Sammael.

 

As far as SL goes, I knew where I was talking about, I just didn't use the correct name when referring to it.

 

Third, someone made a fine point regarding the waygates which is what I was implying earlier. I don't remember Sammael himself ever losing to LTT at a waygate.

 

For all we know, someone other than Taim was impersonating Sammael and Sammael took over Taim's identity. Taim resembles Sammael to much for it to be coincidence IMO.

[Guest Majsju]

Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

 

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

 

http://edition.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

[skalors3]

I must acquiesce to the knowledge of Majsju. I am humbled in your infinite wisdom:)

[Guest Majsju]

The wisdom to add all interviews and other tidbits of info to Favourites, yes :D

[skalors3]

I haven't really read any other information outside of the books. I have only caught blurbs here and there:)

[Thor]

So Mashadar turned Sammy into toast, but does that mean that it ate him? :shock:

[RobertAlexWillis]

So Mashadar turned Sammy into toast, but does that mean that it ate him?

 

Yes. With Raspberry Jam.

[icspots]

Where is the quote from RJ regarding Sammael being "toast." I remember him saying something similar about Asmodean, but never Sammael.

 

As far as SL goes, I knew where I was talking about, I just didn't use the correct name when referring to it.

 

Third, someone made a fine point regarding the waygates which is what I was implying earlier. I don't remember Sammael himself ever losing to LTT at a waygate.

 

For all we know, someone other than Taim was impersonating Sammael and Sammael took over Taim's identity. Taim resembles Sammael to much for it to be coincidence IMO.

 

Cool beans on the location, I do that all the time. The quote source is taken care of, so I don't need to worry about that. On to the waygates.

 

I'm not saying that LTT had a victory over Sammael by a waygate, and because of that Sammael wanted to defeat Rand next to one. Perhaps the word "victory" was a little off. I think it was something like Sammael always liked to defeat someone where they'd had a victory, or near something they'd created. The only thing anywhere in SL where Rand could be said to have a "creation" was the waygate, and so Rand went there and found Sammael waiting for him. Sammael knew that Rand had booby-trapped that one as he made a mention of how many trollocs died coming out of it.

 

Also we don't know that Rand booby-trapped all of the waygates. We know that Loial and Karldin (SP?) went around (Karldin to travel, and Loial to locate the waygates) to all of the waygates and did something. We're not told if they put the shadowspawn-killing-ward around them, or if Loial removed the avendesora leaf to lock them.

 

Also I certainly wouldn't say that Sammael and Taim have similar descriptions. descriptions from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

Taim: "He has black hair and is above average height. He has the dark face, tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones of a Saldaean. He looks about thirty-five."

 

Sammael: "He is solid and compact with a quick stride and an abrupt manner. He has blue eyes and golden hair with a neat, square trimmed beard. (TFoH,Prologue) He is slightly taller than average, muscular and solid, with blue eyes, golden hair and a square cut beard. He has a livid scar from hairline to beard."

[Thor]

Yeah and if you remember what I said before, they look way too different for any illusion to be effective.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also we don't know that Rand booby-trapped all of the waygates.

 

Well, Rand did describe the booby-trap around the one in Shadar Logoth ...

 

In Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 21 To Shadar Logoth

 

What he wove and then inverted was a vicious sort of trap to suit a vicious place. A ward of surpassing nastiness. Humans could cross it unharmed, perhaps even the Forsaken - he could ward against humans or Shadowspawn, not both - and even a male Forsaken could not detect it. Should any sort of Shadowspawn pass through ... That was the viciousness. They would not die right away; they might even live to make it beyond the city walls. Long enough for the dead to be far off, not here to frighten the next Myrdraal that came. Long enough for a Trolloc army to exit perhaps, picking up their own deaths as they did. Cruel enough for a Trolloc. Making the thing sickened him as much as the taint on saidin.

 

So, the ward around the Shadar Logoth Waygate is a "slow death to Shadowspawn" ward. Also, the POV implies that it is different from what has been done at other Waygates. In other places, Rand describes some of the Waygates as being "under guard". I imagine those would be the ones in the former Ogier Groves of the cities Rand controls. For the ones out in the country, I would imagine a combination of Loial locking them from the outside and Karldin warding them would be most effective ... after all, Rand seems to want them usable again. When Elder Haman (in the same chapter as above) said he could lock it

"so it cannot be opened again without the Talisman of Growing"

(like what Loial did to the Manetheren Waygate), Rand responded,

"It might have to be used without time for fetching anything"

then thought to himself,

All the Ways might have to be used, whatever the dangers.

 

 

So, since Rand wants them usable, he probably didn't tell Loial and Karldin ro do anything permanent. For the ones not "under guard", warding them would be the most effective way.

 

I'm not sure how this bears on the rest of the conversation, but thats what we know about the Waygates right now.