The True Nature of the Creator and Dark One...

[Plato]

I have always assumed that Shayol Ghul is Collam Daan, though why the Pattern would be weaker in place than another is another question.

 

We are told in the LoC prologue that in the AoL, Sahyol Gul was an island favored by those who enjoyed the rustic life. The bore was drilled to there as this was where the barrier between the real world and the DO's prison was thinnest.

 

An island, favored by the rustic, close to the center of the world's evil... Sounds like Iceland to me.

[Dagon Thyne]

I have always assumed that Shayol Ghul is Collam Daan, though why the Pattern would be weaker in place than another is another question.

 

We are told in the LoC prologue that in the AoL, Sahyol Gul was an island favored by those who enjoyed the rustic life. The bore was drilled to there as this was where the barrier between the real world and the DO's prison was thinnest.

 

An island, favored by the rustic, close to the center of the world's evil... Sounds like Iceland to me.

 

 

More like Fiji or Hawaii....

[Plato]

But Fiji and Hawaii aren't known for their gates of hell on the island (are they?)

[Suttree]

But Fiji and Hawaii aren't known for their gates of hell on the island (are they?)

 

Volcanic activity could be considered such...

[Plato]

I'm talking about a history of being known as the gates of hell, embedded in the culture. The Volcanoe Hekla on Iceland:

 

After the eruption of 1104, stories (which were probably spread deliberately through Europe by Cistercian monks) told that Hekla was the gateway to Hell. The Cistercian monk Herbert of Clairvaux wrote in his De Miraculis (without naming Hekla):

 

 

The renowned fiery cauldron of Sicily, which men call Hell's chimney ... that cauldron is affirmed to be like a small furnace compared to this enormous inferno.[3]

 

—Herbert of Clairvaux, Liber De Miraculis, 1180

 

A poem by the monk Benedeit from circa 1120 about the voyages of Saint Brendan mentions Hekla as the prison of Judas.

 

The Flatey Book Annal wrote of the 1341 eruption that people saw large and small birds flying in the mountain's fire which were taken to be souls.[4] In the 16th century Caspar Peucer wrote that the Gates of Hell could be found in "the bottomless abyss of Hekla Fell". The belief that Hekla was the gate to Hell persisted until the 1800s.[3] There is still a legend that witches gather on Hekla for Easter.[5]

 

Think the bore is in Iceland now?

[Dagon Thyne]

But Fiji and Hawaii aren't known for their gates of hell on the island (are they?)

 

Volcanic activity could be considered such...

 

 

Plus there is the fact that in the AOL, Shayol Ghul was not considered a "gate to hell" type place. They didn't even know that the DO existed. ANd there are several vocations throughout the world, many on islands, that have that type of legend....

 

The volcano on the main Hawaiian island is infact considered the prison of an evil demon..

[Hadilmir]

Ahh, first post back from a prolonged absence. Excellent question, I always enjoy it.

 

I suppose since this is my first post back from a prolonged absence as well I will spend it pestering you (as usual).

 

Your theory calls for a prison created by the Creator which envelopes the Pattern and prevents the Dark One from reaching in, but events have shown a direct link between humankind and the Dark One's power within the Pattern. Does it not make far more sense then for humanity itself (Or perhaps all sentience as suggested by the wolves[?]) to be that "prison"? I've tossed this one back and forth many times-

 

The Dark One is the collective evil of all mankind's souls trapped outside, metaphysically speaking of course, the Pattern (Collective Conscious of mankind) by the very nature of humanity itself. If the world is the equivalent of a shared dream on an existential scale, then the Dark One is that dark thought that continues to reoccur, yet is separate from the Dream as a whole. It is an intruder trying to destroy something that seems just as foreign to it as it does to the dream.

 

If that dark thought takes over the Dream it regresses into a nightmare, but still continues and can eventually return to being a dream. However if mankind surrenders to the Dark One, as in Rand, the Wheel's (and thus mankind's) Champion, giving in and destroying the Pattern, then the Dream is over. The Aiel have it right, a soul can wake from the Dream, but the Dream remains for the soul to reenter. The Dark One doesn't want that, he isn't contented with just degrading the Dream into a nightmare, he wants it gone.

 

In other words, if the Pattern is dictated by the collective consciousness of humanity, then the Dark One can be thought of as the collective nihilism of humanity. Notice the power of the Dark One grew exponentially as the Westlands began to believe Tar'mon Gaidon was upon them. Fear of death, fear of endings and of destructions only adds to the amalgamation of darkness which is expressed as the Dark One. There is no need for a Creator and an answer to Herid Fel's paradox, because the paradox need not exist; there was no original prison, it was simply a product of the Pattern.

 

 

-Hadilmir, once again happy to serve and/or muddle things up.

[Shai-tan]

Ahh, first post back from a prolonged absence. Excellent question, I always enjoy it.

 

I suppose since this is my first post back from a prolonged absence as well I will spend it pestering you (as usual).

 

Your theory calls for a prison created by the Creator which envelopes the Pattern and prevents the Dark One from reaching in, but events have shown a direct link between humankind and the Dark One's power within the Pattern. Does it not make far more sense then for humanity itself (Or perhaps all sentience as suggested by the wolves[?]) to be that "prison"? I've tossed this one back and forth many times-

 

The Dark One is the collective evil of all mankind's souls trapped outside, metaphysically speaking of course, the Pattern (Collective Conscious of mankind) by the very nature of humanity itself. If the world is the equivalent of a shared dream on an existential scale, then the Dark One is that dark thought that continues to reoccur, yet is separate from the Dream as a whole. It is an intruder trying to destroy something that seems just as foreign to it as it does to the dream.

 

If that dark thought takes over the Dream it regresses into a nightmare, but still continues and can eventually return to being a dream. However if mankind surrenders to the Dark One, as in Rand, the Wheel's (and thus mankind's) Champion, giving in and destroying the Pattern, then the Dream is over. The Aiel have it right, a soul can wake from the Dream, but the Dream remains for the soul to reenter. The Dark One doesn't want that, he isn't contented with just degrading the Dream into a nightmare, he wants it gone.

 

In other words, if the Pattern is dictated by the collective consciousness of humanity, then the Dark One can be thought of as the collective nihilism of humanity. Notice the power of the Dark One grew exponentially as the Westlands began to believe Tar'mon Gaidon was upon them. Fear of death, fear of endings and of destructions only adds to the amalgamation of darkness which is expressed as the Dark One. There is no need for a Creator and an answer to Herid Fel's paradox, because the paradox need not exist; there was no original prison, it was simply a product of the Pattern.

 

 

-Hadilmir, once again happy to serve and/or muddle things up.

 

That would make for some interesting theories to the ending of TG....

[tamoni]

So, as far as I understand from several discussions:

1. The DO's prison is the pattern.

2. No one but the Creator can make the prison.

3. At some point in the turnings of the Wheel of Time, the prison has to be remade by the Creator, so that in the Age of Legends someone can bore a hole in it.

4. The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

 

5. "Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything".

 

6. The Creator's only task is to create the Pattern (and thus the DO's prison).

7. So, the Pattern has to be destroyed and the DO set free for the Creator to become active.

And so I wonder: can't it be that at Tarmon Gaidon, the pattern will unravel, and then Rand et al have to help the Creator remake the Pattern (like via Tel'randriod, hence all the time spend on explaining this concept and how one can will something into existence)?

This could also explain the "twice dawn" and how Rand can die and live again (Elayne, Min and Avienda via the bonding somehow recreate him).

 

Well, just some ideas

[Dagon Thyne]

So, as far as I understand from several discussions:

1. The DO's prison is the pattern.

2. No one but the Creator can make the prison.

3. At some point in the turnings of the Wheel of Time, the prison has to be remade by the Creator, so that in the Age of Legends someone can bore a hole in it.

4. The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

 

5. "Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything".

 

6. The Creator's only task is to create the Pattern (and thus the DO's prison).

7. So, the Pattern has to be destroyed and the DO set free for the Creator to become active.

And so I wonder: can't it be that at Tarmon Gaidon, the pattern will unravel, and then Rand et al have to help the Creator remake the Pattern (like via Tel'randriod, hence all the time spend on explaining this concept and how one can will something into existence)?

This could also explain the "twice dawn" and how Rand can die and live again (Elayne, Min and Avienda via the bonding somehow recreate him).

 

Well, just some ideas

 

The Dark One's prison is not the pattern itself, it simply exists outside of the pattern. The power it took to break through the pattern to create the Bore caused the DO's prison to shatter. That is why the DO is now free to move through space and time. That's actually how he brings back the Forsaken. He reaches into the future, to a time where he is already free, and brings their reborn selves into the past.

[Suttree]

The Dark One's prison is not the pattern itself, it simply exists outside of the pattern. The power it took to break through the pattern to create the Bore caused the DO's prison to shatter. That is why the DO is now free to move through space and time. That's actually how he brings back the Forsaken. He reaches into the future, to a time where he is already free, and brings their reborn selves into the past.

 

As was mentioned earlier the prison did not shatter, it is merely a small whole.

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

If it had shattered the DO would be totally free.

Q: But they believe they are immortal.

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality.

 

As for how he how he transmigrates the forsaken he doesn't travel into the future. He grabs their soul at the time of death before it can pass on. He only has a small window to do this which is why he can't do it to someone balefired. They are essentially dead before he knows they are gone.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

[Mr Ares]

So, as far as I understand from several discussions:

1. The DO's prison is the pattern.

2. No one but the Creator can make the prison.

3. At some point in the turnings of the Wheel of Time, the prison has to be remade by the Creator, so that in the Age of Legends someone can bore a hole in it.

4. The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn can only put a patch on the prison, but not redo it.

 

5. "Crossroads of Twilight book tour 18 January 2003, Harvard Coop - Tallis reporting

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything".

 

6. The Creator's only task is to create the Pattern (and thus the DO's prison).

7. So, the Pattern has to be destroyed and the DO set free for the Creator to become active.

And so I wonder: can't it be that at Tarmon Gaidon, the pattern will unravel, and then Rand et al have to help the Creator remake the Pattern (like via Tel'randriod, hence all the time spend on explaining this concept and how one can will something into existence)?

This could also explain the "twice dawn" and how Rand can die and live again (Elayne, Min and Avienda via the bonding somehow recreate him).

 

Well, just some ideas

Your understanding of many points is a little out. The DO's prison is not the Pattern, nor has the series ever made it out to be. The Creator made the prison, but that does not suggest he is the only one who could have made it. While the prison will have to be made whole again, there isno reason to believe the Creator is necessary for this process. The Dragon did put a patch on it, but that does not suggest it is the only thing that could be done. So we have no reason to believe that the Creator is in any way necessary for the resolution of the series.

[Dagon Thyne]

The Dark One's prison is not the pattern itself, it simply exists outside of the pattern. The power it took to break through the pattern to create the Bore caused the DO's prison to shatter. That is why the DO is now free to move through space and time. That's actually how he brings back the Forsaken. He reaches into the future, to a time where he is already free, and brings their reborn selves into the past.

 

As was mentioned earlier the prison did not shatter, it is merely a small whole.

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

If it had shattered the DO would be totally free.

Q: But they believe they are immortal.

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality.

 

As for how he how he transmigrates the forsaken he doesn't travel into the future. He grabs their soul at the time of death before it can pass on. He only has a small window to do this which is why he can't do it to someone balefired. They are essentially dead before he knows they are gone.

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

 

The hole is not actually in the DO's prison. The Bore is merely a hole in the pattern, DO's prison is not the pattern itself, as I said, but merely exists outside of the pattern. The backlash of the creation of the bore cuased the DO's prison to shatter, and allowed him to try to move through the bore.

[Suttree]

The hole is not actually in the DO's prison. The Bore is merely a hole in the pattern, DO's prison is not the pattern itself, as I said, but merely exists outside of the pattern. The backlash of the creation of the bore cuased the DO's prison to shatter, and allowed him to try to move through the bore.

 

You do realize that just repeating yourself doesn't make it anymore true? I agree that the prison and pattern are not the same. The DO has always existed outside the pattern. The small hole in his prison allows him to slightly effect the real world. As the seals on his prison weaken he can cause more of an effect. Again if the prison was shattered why then is he not free? Not to mention RJ's quote above which specifically says...

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner.

 

Doesn't get much more clear than that.

[Alric]

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner.

 

Doesn't get much more clear than that.

1)

 

So just to be clear, is there is an eternal cycle of the above? I guess that's kind of depressing and hard for many to accept.

 

In that case, isn't there something missing here? The "patched in a makeshift manner" seems to refer to Lews Therin's sealing. That's not a cycle. There would have to be a better sealing (like the one Rand hopefully will do) for there to be an equivalent to the utopian AoL that made the drilling of a Bore possible and start the cycle over again. And in this case, the Last Battle and the urgency of Rand's task is something that has been successfully accomplished an infinite number of times before? I don't know if that lowers the bar but it would indicate that the odds are quite good.

 

2)

 

Or can we hope for an even better outcome that would make it impossible to drill a Bore again? The narrative of the books and all of RJ's talk about the nature of the wheel would seem to speak against it. But at the same time there are hints of defeating the DO in a more permanent way, from the discussion among the characters and Lanfear's hopes of defeating him (and the Creator). I will admit that RJ is a better authority than her but it makes for some interesting speculation...

[MasterAblar]

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner.

 

Doesn't get much more clear than that.

1)

 

So just to be clear, is there is an eternal cycle of the above? I guess that's kind of depressing and hard for many to accept.

 

In that case, isn't there something missing here? The "patched in a makeshift manner" seems to refer to Lews Therin's sealing. That's not a cycle. There would have to be a better sealing (like the one Rand hopefully will do) for there to be an equivalent to the utopian AoL that made the drilling of a Bore possible and start the cycle over again. And in this case, the Last Battle and the urgency of Rand's task is something that has been successfully accomplished an infinite number of times before? I don't know if that lowers the bar but it would indicate that the odds are quite good.

 

Things probably did not take place the exact same way in the previous third age. RJ desribed the repeating cycle as a tapestry with a repeating pattern that would look the same from far way, but is clearly different when you get closer. In other words while this third age is similar to the previous one, the details will be different, and the same for all ages in the cycle. Perhaps the Dragon Reborn had to seal away the DO in all previous third ages, but we don't really know. However the fact that he has succeeded everytime until now does not mean that Rand's success is garantied. The DO only needs to win once for it to be game over for the Light. Hopefully this age ends with the complete sealing of the DO. However, should that not happen, even after this age there are 5 more ages before the DO has to be sealed completely in time for the cycle to repeat, that we know of, since we don't know what happens in the other 5 ages. It will probably be done before the end of the 5th age (the one right before the AoL) since the people have to forget that the DO even exists.

[Alric]

Aha, I assumed that the cycles were specific enough that major things like the bore, the partial sealing and the final sealing would take place in the same Ages each time. You may be right that there could be several opportunities in later Ages.

[Kelandon]

The power it took to break through the pattern to create the Bore caused the DO's prison to shatter. That is why the DO is now free to move through space and time. That's actually how he brings back the Forsaken. He reaches into the future, to a time where he is already free, and brings their reborn selves into the past.

There are a whole bunch of things wrong with this (EDIT: that have already been pointed out — didn't notice that I missed the last page when I wrote this post). First, the Bore didn't "shatter" the DO's prison. Some stuff from the Guide:

When the Bore was drilled into a place outside the Pattern, a dark presence used the opening to touch the world. This presence, which named itself Shai'tan, had been imprisoned outside of time and creation by the Creator of the universe.... He has no true physical form, being something outside and beyond this universe.... His followers agree that it is his intention to break free of his prison and come fully into the world.... He does not, however, have the ability to break free of his prison without assistance from our world. The fact that the War of the Shadow began with an attempt by his followers to complete what the Bore began is proof of this limitation. (emphases added)

A few things to take from this:

* The DO is outside the universe and the Pattern. More on "outside of time" below.

* He is not free of his prison and, as far as we know, has not ever been. Even during the War of Power, the Bore was an incomplete hole in the prison. He was able to reach out and touch the world, but he was not completely free.

 

So, first of all, the DO's prison never shattered. It's mostly still intact. However, it does have a hole in it. Imagine a prison cell with a hole in the wall that a person could stick his hand through but couldn't fit his whole body through; that's the kind of thing we're talking about.

 

Second, the DO doesn't move through time. He doesn't reach into the future or the past. He exists in the present, just like everyone else. I'm going to spare the quotes to prove it, but suffice it to say that he is only outside of time to the extent that he doesn't exist in cycles of death and rebirth and repetition guided by the Wheel in the way that everyone else does.

 

Another point: the Glossary.

Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change.

I always assumed that there was something special about the Seventh Age transitioning to the First Age that made it look as though things were starting over. Not sure what it would be, but I bet by the time we get back to the First Age, the Bore isn't just patched; it's completely gone.

[MasterAblar]

Another point: the Wheel of Time is variously described as a seven-spoked wheel, which I always assumed meant that there were seven Ages. I further always assumed that there was something meaningful about the ending of the Seventh Age that made it seem as though things were repeating. But now that I go back and look at that, I'm not immediately sure why I assume that.

 

I don't know that there is anything particularly meaningful about the end of the Seventh Age. However, if we consider that the 1st Age which came before the Age of Legends which is the 2nd Age, is the Age we supposedly live in, then perhaps it ended with some gigantic disaster which litteraly wiped out humanity, and led to the beginning of the 1st Age. Also I'm guessing there is probably a significant even at the end of every Age in some way to warrant a change in age. Such as the discovery of channelling, perhaps coming hand in hand with yet another disaster (man-made or otherwise) , the taint on saidin and the breaking of the world, and the Last Battle.

 

Not sure what it would be, but I bet by the time we get back to the First Age, the Bore isn't just patched; it's completely gone.

 

That doesn't need to happen in the Seventh Age though. In fact it's pretty much what Rand is trying to do: repair the prison so that it is flawless, and the DO cannot break through without outside help.

[Kelandon]

I do think it's likely that Rand fixes the Bore entirely at the end of the Third Age. I'm just saying that it seems that it has to happen before the First Age comes again. It also seems as there there has to be something special about the ending of the Seventh Age, although we have no way of knowing what, unless some interview said something somewhere.

[BrainFireBob]

The quick version:

 

The DO has an MO of betweens- in keeping with the mythological parallels, in this case the Celtic overtones of the otherworld. Crossroads, dusk/dawn, etc.

 

Fades travel at the edge of shadows.

 

The TP is usable by either male or female.

 

Moridin is fairly heavily desexualized, Fades are de facto clones.

 

Short version: The DO is non-differentiated, he is neither this nor that, but somehow both.

 

Everything affiliated with the Light- day/night, male/female, saidin/saidar- is differentiated in a dichotomas manner, where the parallel in the shadow is not differentiated.

 

Independent observation: If the Creator created creation, it must be of the Creator. Ergo, it is partitive of the Creator's power. If it is not of his full power, then it is simple prey to the DO, which has his full power with himself. Similarly, the argument regarding saidin/saidar being a third power, independent of the DO and Creator, must be non-sensical; the True Source must be of the Creator's power, and it is literarily unnecessary to add a complication where the Creator has an independent power.

 

Extending these trends, from a literary as well as logical perspective, given it is a Manichean universe with two beings struggling in opposition, where the beings are thematic opposites- I would posit that the DO isn't prisoned per se, nor that the Creator "created" creation and abandoned it, but rather that the Creator has diffused itself throughout creation, and its nemesis seeks to renew their age-old struggle, which cannot be done until the Creator re-concentrates, which requires the dissolution of the hole it has made itself.

 

In other words, the DO isn't imprisoned in the Pattern, the Pattern shuts him out of itself, being the whole and complete being of his antithesis. Anything less he should be able to simply crush, by the application of his own power. He's not sealed out- reality is sealed in.

[tamoni]

I like the part about the Creator having diffused itself in the Pattern/in creation.

But what do you mean exactly by

 

which requires the dissolution of the hole it has made itself.

 

(who is the subject in this sentence, the Creator or the DO?)

[Dagon Thyne]

I do think it's likely that Rand fixes the Bore entirely at the end of the Third Age. I'm just saying that it seems that it has to happen before the First Age comes again. It also seems as there there has to be something special about the ending of the Seventh Age, although we have no way of knowing what, unless some interview said something somewhere.

 

But at some time in the furture the bore will be fixed completely. RJ has already pointed out that there will be a time in the future where the pattern is whole and the DO's prison is fixed.

 

I've heard the theory that Rand and Moridin are the Avatars of the Creator and DO and that Rand will gain the power to alter reality after the LB and fix the bore himself, others say that the crerator himself will fix it some time in ages 4 though 7, before the next turning of the whee.

[Vermillion]

DO = Exsist outside of time except for when in reality if that makes sense.

DO = In a prison outside the pattern.

 

AoLers found a power that could be used by both male and female(how did they know and how did they find it?) They drilled into this prison and created a hole in the pattern as well. The hole is strongest felt in SG.

 

Either getting out of his prison brings him into the pattern.

Or there is a funnel effect where the bore was drilled through the pattern bridging us to his prison.

Or his prison is part of the pattern.

 

The DO's role is destruction and death and chaos. His goal is to get free to destroy. And as we see he carries out these goals with as much chaos and destruction as possible.

 

The creator is the opposite of the DO. While the DO lies and manipulates and takes as much liberty to interact with and destroy the pattern as possible... the creator does... not much(outside the voice in EoTW and Rand's brain... maybe). His role was to create and automate apparently and been very successful considering he's won in the infinite past and future and infinite variations of those infinite ages.

 

The question I've had since I've understood the there is no beginning nor end how can the DO win? If infinity to the past and future which is impossibly looped has already played out how does DO win? Doesn't this imply that everything that is going to happen to Rand and crew is the past. In the book EoTW Rand healing Saidar was the immediate future of Saidar healing and the furthest past. This means Rand sealing the bore has already happened in the past.

 

If there were say infinite turnings of the ages but it had a beginning I could see where the DO could win. My best explanation is that the DO breaking out creates a time paradox or breaks the pattern thus cutting off the head of the Great Serpent.