one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Travelling into the room serves no purpose beyond letting the target know you are there. Graendal didn't know Asmodean was weakend, so she wouldn't want him to see her before striking. Graendal is hedonistic to the point of being ineffectual, but the fact that she isn't dead meens she's not stupid. She wouldn't have wanted Asmondean to know she was there before killing him. If she could watch him long enough to know where to Travel to, then Travel unobserved, she could have killed him unobserved without the Travelling. Plus, all indications are that Travelling takes a lot of power, so Aviendha should have sensed it since she was in the palace at the time.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Guess I repeated some of Majsju's post about being observed. :oops: My only defense is that it wasn't there when I started typing. Believe it or not, that's the truth.

[Guest Admiral]

that is kind of ridiculous since they share a soul! and ltt never really left' date=' he was just silent.[/quote']

 

 

No proof! And if you have read Herberts Dune, you will understand the theory that it is plausible to share a soul with someone while existing in real life.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

:P thanks Paradoxic... that's a fantastic post. It does summarise a lot of the points raised. Maybe you ought to get it on the FAQ Library. You can't use the link at the top yet for posting' date=' but Matalina suggested to post books@dragonmount.com ( hope I remembered correctly)

[/quote']

 

You know sometimes I actually used to think Paradoxic was the FAQ come to life :D

 

Anyhows, I think his arguement is absolutely spot on. Its very possible (and I reckon probable)that we don't need to think about all this reason and motive for the big `who dunnit`. I sometimes think RJ hasn't told us what happened and never will because he knows we would be gutted to find out that the whole killing was of very little importance to the overall story, and was merely a way to kill off a character who had served their purpose and become obsolete. If he has to go, well why not send him out with a bit of mystery and perhaps dignity?

 

So if it was just a convenience to kill him off, what does that mean for our culprit? Clearly it was Greandal, taking advantage of a coincedental encounter to polish off someone who is an ally of her enemy. She could have been there for any of the reasons Paradoxic excellently pointed out on the previous page (how I wish I could be bothered to write posts that long), without having to perform a lightning quick travel or other amazing feats just to get into the pantry.

[Graendals favourite]

Excellent replies!

 

Majsju, the Palace was empty of servants and folks, according to Enaila. Also, we knew the Aiel were outside chasing Trollocs. Having walked any time at all in the Palace, Graendal would know that it was empty.

 

Having follow Asmodean from the garden, the realistic place to see him, she would already know Mat and Aviendha were there, and I'd say most certainly she'd have also checked about Rand's whereabouts, whether she saw him in that window or not. So the relevant people were behind, and others not about. I'd say if e.g. Bashere should have been behind that door, then too bad for him, but he wouldn't have slowed Graendal much if at all.

 

cwestervelt, I've thought long and hard about that issue. My conclusion is that it does make sense. It seems to me, that when attacked, the Forsaken seem to be able to defend, even if it is out of the blue, and even regardless of the gender of the attacker.

 

Taking a few examples. Moghedien reacted instantaneously when she was wounded and Liandrin suddenly attacked her from behind. Admittedly, she already had warning of Liandrin embracing the source.

 

But in Tear, Lanfear cut off Rand's attempt to (was it to) shield her, and it could have been in no way apparent that that was what Rand would have done.

 

Well, I don't remember all of the attacks on people, but it certainly seems, that even in different gender attacks, defense is possible, and the Forsaken aren't easily killed by someone channelling from a rooftop.

 

But then, if someone is surprised, as to my knowledge on psychology, which isn't much, shock does produce an instant of non-reaction. Graendal if someone will be aware of that. Like someone crossing the street and freezing when he sees a truck come, instead of trying to leap out of the way.

 

It isn't certain that Aviendha would feel the gateway having channelled a few months only, and if she did, she was not there then, so Graendal would've had ample time to leave before any conclusions on the reasons of the sense of someone channelling could have been made.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Additional evidence? She's the ONLY person to say he is dead, not just disappeared. All the others seem to think he turned tail and ran while she, for her own reasons, states several different times that she believes him dead. This is nothing on its own, but it is helpful towards the big picture.

 

I finally figured out what always bothered me when I heard people make that statement. Graendal is not the only person to know that Asmodean is dead. And it is quite likely that it was Demandred who told her.

 

To recap:

 

Start of LoC, Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul where he gets told by the DO that "THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS, RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE." There seems to be general agreement that this meens the DO knew Asmodean was dead and that he was telling Demandred.

 

Then, still in the prologue, Demandred meets with Graendal and Messana to pass on the DOs instructions. After he passes on the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" stuff, the paragraph ends with, "Then he told them the rest." We don't have all of the details of what he told them. It is reasonable to think the death of a "traitor" would have been included in the "rest" of what the DO told him.

 

When speeking to Sammael Graendal states, "What Demandred told me that the Great Lord told him, I have passed on to you, Sammael. Every word. I doubt even he would dare lie in the Great Lord's name." The implications are that everything Demandred was told, he passed on.

 

Edit: corrected several grammatical and typographic errors.

[Graendals favourite]

I'll yet add to the shock thing. Well, I play tennis. In tennis, it is very hard to hit a winning shot from almost wherever to wherever, if the opponent is in a reasonable position and prepared to take what comes. But, if you manage to surprise him, and thus he doesn't instantly start to run to the place behind where the ball will bounce, the point is yours with even a less good shot. Aside from managing to actually get his put his weight on the wrong foot, the simple surprise of: The ball goes there! will be enough to delay him fatally.

 

Edit: That's the reason why in half the successful drop shots the opponent doesn't even try to get them. First he's surprised, and then he's already too late.

[Angel of Death]

Im thinking Slayer.

 

I liked Padan Fain, until i heard RJ say it was NOT him.

 

Damm.

[Talya]

If it was Graendal...I do not believe it would have been an ambush....she could well have been in the palace snooping around and hid in the cupboard when she heard someone coming....(she might have thought the place was empty.)T

Then she finds whoever was coming to the door and opening it. She would have embraced the the power straight away as a means of defence and when she saw it was Asmo took her opportunity and nuked him.

 

I did think the prickle he felt may have been her using compulsion on him to come into the cupboard if she knew it was him....but not sure if she would actually have to see him in order to do that...

 

I know I've been a die hard Lanfear supporter doesn't mean I'm not open to suggestion...I think it was my gut reaction when i read it.

 

Sorry Graendals Fav I can't see the ambush theory but could well believe him walking in and discovering her by accident.

[BenTGaidin]

As for Ishammael:

1) He was dead and we didn't know he could come back to life.

 

Because if we learned nothing else from the endings of EotW and tGH it's that once you kill Ishy in a climactic battle, he's absolutely, positively dead-and-never-coming-back... *grins*

 

Oh, wait, that doesn't sound _quite_ right.

 

 

Ben T-Gaidin

"Death is but a doorway..."

[Marak]

I can't believe people STILL don't understand this one.

The identity of the murderer was INCREDIBLY obvious.

 

One word. Bela.

[Graendals favourite]

Tessa, no matter :). My job has been to attract attention to the thing, but I don't mind people disagreeing with me. But give it a few days. It might grow on you.

 

Remember, you can't see the living room from the toilet. Asmo's killer couldn't see who else was in the corridor behind him.

 

On the note of compulsion, I'd like to speculate it was Graendal who induced the sense of boredom in Asmodean in the garden. But that thought requires knowledge from WH about reversed weaves. However, it seems reversed weaves take a little time to prepare in advance, so they wouldn't have been an option in travelling behind that door. The timing is tight, but manageable, just Travelling with a little spurt of action. So I'd put that shiver down to that. However, it is only speculation, the shiver could have been genuine, but covered the other shiver. Well, speculation is always fun.

[Talya]

Graendal's Fav.

Well you haven't done too bad.

The fact I'm actually considering Graendal is an achievement.... :lol:

 

I still think that even though we don't know about inverted (or whatever they are called) weaves until later on doesn't mean they didn't use them...i'm sure Lanfear must have used them in Tear when she popped in other wise Moiraine might have noticed.

[Graendals favourite]

:D

 

Yea, you're right, they would certainly use them, and it explains all the Tower adventures as well. But when thinking about Asmo, while one must aware of them so as not to conflict, one can't say them aloud because they're post-FoH. :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

As for Ishammael:

1) He was dead and we didn't know he could come back to life.

 

Because if we learned nothing else from the endings of EotW and tGH it's that once you kill Ishy in a climactic battle' date=' he's absolutely, positively dead-and-never-coming-back... *grins*

 

Oh, wait, that doesn't sound _quite_ right.

 

 

Ben T-Gaidin

"Death is but a doorway..."[/quote']

 

There's just the little matter of him leaving a corpse behind in "The Dragon Reborn." That is something that didn't occur either of the other 2 "death" scenes.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'll yet add to the shock thing. Well' date=' I play tennis. In tennis, it is very hard to hit a winning shot from almost wherever to wherever, if the opponent is in a reasonable position and prepared to take what comes. But, if you manage to surprise him, and thus he doesn't instantly start to run to the place behind where the ball will bounce, the point is yours with even a less good shot. Aside from managing to actually get his put his weight on the wrong foot, the simple surprise of: The ball goes there! will be enough to delay him fatally.

 

Edit: That's the reason why in half the successful drop shots the opponent doesn't even try to get them. First he's surprised, and then he's already too late.[/quote']

 

I've said most of this before, but I will repeat...

 

Where's the shock value if you Travel into a room and someone gives a startled yell at the site of a slash of light openning in the air. Gateways aren't instantaneous. Also, Travelling indoors would require a fairly good knowledge of your destination. Rand was able to do it because he had been to the throne room so knew what was there. If you don't know the room, what is to stop you from openning your Gateway in the middle of a support column. The building collapsing would shock your target yes, but it wouldn't do you a whole lot of good.

 

There's just no good reason. If you can pull off the Travel without alerting the person, you can pull off a first strike attack without alerting them.

[Graendals favourite]

But you didn't say all of it before, or I've not understood.

 

Three things. First the technicality. Generally, Travelling you need to know where you start from well. However, we know you don't need to really know that to Travel short distances. Witness Rand in Illian, though I admit that takes place in Cos. You can open a gateway 2 metres from directly inside the door, and it pretty safe to say there's no column there. If there is, go around it, don't hit your head.

 

Travelling isn't instantaneous, but if you don't loll around, neither does it take very long. Open gateway, dive through, let it close on your heels. If you're gonna do something like that, killing a forsaken, there's no room for hesitation anyway.

 

As for someone seeing. First, someone seeing it behind Asmo, well, the palace was empty. Asmo didn't seem to see anyone either. Don't see why there should've been anyone looking, but can't say much beyond that. Except I should think that then they would've also seen Asmo's murder

 

Someone seeing the gateway in that room and then starting shouting. If there should surprisingly be someone, i suppose the sound would get out. Though I'm not sure if that would be the natural reaction. Still, it wouldn't yet tell Asmo there was a Forsaken behind that door, though I suppose hearing screaming behind it Asmo might not enter. It's not a big loss. The surprise, the shock is that one of his former collegues was there, suddenly.

 

There is reason. It's way better to frighten someone so he can't think than attack from behind. The same as in real life, attacking someone with a knife to the back, the guy can at the last instant notice and twist, then start fighting. If you can and dare surprise him, you'll have time for a good hit. Not only that you're there, but you're one of the Forsaken no doubt meaning to kill you.

 

Edit: Just because you're not expecting an attack doesn't mean you're not prepared to meet one if it comes. Expecting a Forsaken not to be on his toes, especially since you don't know he's not holding saidin, is expecting much. If you can get a good advantage by ambushing, it should be worth it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What are the things we "know" at the point in time when Asmo is killed?

 

Someshta killed Balthamel.

Aginor was totally consumed by fire.

Bel'al was balefired.

Ba'alzamon finally died, leaving a rapidly decomposing corpse.

Rahvin was balefired.

 

So far as we "know" at that point in time, those five are dead, dead, dead, and never coming back.

 

Lanfear and Moiraine disappeared through the only known entrance/exit to/from the Eelfinn. That doorway then melted and was consumed by fire. Moghedien has been captured by Nynaeve. So far as we can know, then, those three are completely out-of-play.

 

Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana have not yet been introduced. There is no way to make any of them the "intuitively obvious" killer.

 

That leaves only two Forsaken. Sammael and Graendal. Of the two, Sammael is the only one who has expressed any desire to kill Asmo.

 

Unfortunately, we now need to invent a reason for either of them to be in Caemlyn, and in place to do the deed.

 

From what we know of Graendal, she does not act openly on her own. She uses surrogates, or she acts in concert with other Forsaken. We need to do some pretty tall inventing in order to put her in place.

 

Sammael probably would act alone - if he knew where to find Asmo. We have no evidence to suggest that he does, so we need some other reason for him to be in Caemlyn at that time. There really isn't one. The four conspirators have been enacting a plan to induce Rand to attack him in Illian. Sammael is a defensive specialist. He would be deeply involved in setting up his defense; placing traps, positioning troops, etc. He would not be off on his own, skulking about the palace in Caemlyn.

 

There is nothing to suggest that Asmo is even aware of the existence of Padan Fain or Luc/Isam, so there would be no recognition of either of them.

 

That exhausts the list of "obvious" suspects. None has any believable reason to be in Caemlyn. Sammael is the only one with an avowed motive, and that's a pretty weak one. Especially given that he's in the middle of preparing for what he believes will be an imminent attack.

 

Asmo's shiver is meaningless. He is badly unsettled. He just avoided his worst fear of dying and winding up in the DO's clutches by the pure luck that Rand's balefiring of Rahvin undid time to before he was killed. He's going in search of some wine to settle his nerves. His shiver is entirely understandable on that basis alone.

 

So, we have no evidence that any of the Forsaken was there. We have no proof that any female was channeling anywhere near Asmo.

 

We have no believable suspect without doing a powerful lot of inventing. Once we start doing that, ways and means can be invented for anyone, even those who have been balefired.

[Paradoxic]

Sammael is out. He's waiting around in Illian for Rand to attack... he'd never have left it to go wander around Caemlyn.

 

As for the way Graendal and Asmodean came together in that coat closet:

 

Think about who were within 200 feet of the murder scene... Two of the most powerful Ta'avern the world has ever seen. If that's not enough excuse for very unfortunate coincidences occuring, then I don't know what is.

 

I am not personally a follower of the Graendal ambush theory. I believe the only people who could have ambushed Asmodean would be Lanfear/Moiraine working off Finn magic (if they wished to kill him/were let to kill him then the Finns could have easily determined where he'd have wandered to in search of wine since they do seem to have the ability to see the future) and Slayer tracking Asmo in the dream world before popping into the real world.

 

However, as to Slayer, even beyond the "We didn't know he could do that", Asmodean's killer HAD to use the power to do it. As Rand comments after the battle, Asmodean's fighting wouldn't have been only with his sword. Asmodean was strong enough to stop someone with a simple clout of air or throw up a shield to protect himself from mundane murder methods. Even if he was surprised, using the power is as automatic to him as raising his arm. Because of this, Slayer wouldn't have been able to kill Asmodean so quickly and silently.

[Graendals favourite]

Lest it become unclear, the reasons for the accidental version not to make sense remain. I've explained why the ambush makes sense, but regardless of that, the accident doesn't. But yea, it's anyone's choice what they think makes sense, not for me to say.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ta'veren-ness is just more invention out of a clear blue sky. It's nothing more than saying, "Well, it had to be someone, so I pick A, even though I can substantiate no way for him/her to be there."

[Paradoxic]

Now Bob... as you said, there is no obvious and 100% certain murderer. Every possibility comes with a list of required assumptions. HOWEVER one thing we do have for certain is this idea of intuitiveness from what RJ said about the murder. This allows us to immediately eliminate everyone not already known to the reader (or those with yet-unknown powers that would have allowed them to do the 'slaying') by that point in the story. This eliminates Slayer, all the at-that-time dead Forsaken, the Forsaken not yet introduced in the story, Shaidar Haran, and others that I'm not remembering because I've never considered them to be suspects.

 

The question is which of the suspects have the lowest [number of assumptions * average 'size' of those assumptions]. Moiraine/Lanfear require only a small number of assumptions, true, but those assumptions are very big assumptions. Graendal requires more assumptions, but they are smaller and more believable than M/L. Aviendha has some assumptions that are infinately large (how she could have gone from the fountain to the room without Asmo noticing her... and why she'd have killed him anyway... and why she'd not tell Rand).

 

As for your post regarding the suspects, your dismissal of Graendal is rather weak. To assume that she didn't kill him because she uses surrogates is valid, but not rock solid. She does not exclusively use others. She is also very opportunistic, waiting for the exact moment to strike. None of these facts would preclude her from either performing a hit on Asmo (as Graendal's Favourite believes) or killing him because of a random encounter (as I believe).

 

I further disagree with the claim that "none [have] any believable reason to be in Caemlyn". Graendal and Sammael and Rhavin were supposed to have this plot to kill Rand thing going on. Sammael would not have left Illian because of it, but Graendal would have. They were supposed to be together waiting for Sammael to let them know Rand had arrived. Perhaps she went there to see why he wasn't answering his calls. Perhaps she knew he was slain and went there to pick over the rubble. Perhaps she went there to spy on Rand. Perhaps she went there to kill Asmodean (or at least see if Lanfear was telling the truth).

 

As for female channeling. Balefire can use very little of the source, I believe. I agree that opening a gateway would, in my understanding, have been noticed and reacted to by Aviendha (who was sitting not 100 feet from the murder scene).

 

Lastly, Ta'avern-ness is not an "invention out of a clear blue sky". It is a fact of the books. RJ uses it all the time. It isn't like I'm saying that a temporary black hole in the shape of Asmo's mother (whom he has always been scared of, obviously) popped into being infront of him, sucked him in, and then disappeared. I'm saying that, assuming Graendal was in the city, it is fully plausible for the two of them to randomly run into each other... ESPECIALLY since Asmodean's choice of doors was random in the first place.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Graendal's favourite, you missed my point about Travelling indoors. You don't need to know the destination for the Travelling to work. You don't really need to know your origin for short distances. When Travelling inside a building, you do need to know the destination as a safety precaution. A Gateway will cut right through walls and pillars, and cutting through a load bearing one can kill you by collapsing the building.

[BenTGaidin]

There's just the little matter of him leaving a corpse behind in "The Dragon Reborn." That is something that didn't occur either of the other 2 "death" scenes.

 

 

No, he hadn't left a corpse before... But given his penchant for returning, and the corpse's unrecognizability, I don't think it's a very strong point to argue against Ishy; there are several other reasons which are more difficult to refute, but it's hard to say that, thematically, Ishy should be expected to stay dead.

 

And on the side note of ta'vern-ness, I don't think that's a good arguement for Graendal running across Asmodean by accident, simply because ta'veren fate-twisting usually isn't that... simple. If you wanted to argue that Asmodean walked into the wine cellar just as a cat knocked a broken bottle off the shelf, and it fell and slashed his throat before lodging itself in his chest, _that_ would seem like bad ta'veren-ness. Alternately, if Graendal was there for unrelated reasons, and had a sudden inexplicable craving for wine, and _that's_ how she ran into Asmodean and killed him, that would possibly be ta'veren, although still pretty tame. (Of course, that would mean throwing away one of Graendal's stronger arguements...) Ta'veren doesn't usually just make two people "bump into each other," unless it's along the lines of "I fell out a window but you happened to randomly catch me" sort of thing. *grins*

[Alys Kinch]

**And if you have read Herberts Dune, you will understand the theory that it is plausible to share a soul with someone while existing in real life.**

 

i might actually care if the rules of dune had anything to do with the rules of twot!!!

 

** Having walked any time at all in the Palace, Graendal would know that it was empty.**

 

if that is enough reason, then she would be a nitwit. knowing the palace is mostly empty doesn't rule out the possibility of being seen by someone on some random errand. it doesn't make it realistic.

 

**but not sure if she would actually have to see him in order to do that... **

 

according to the info in the books, she would have needed to pinpoint his exact location in order to not need to see him. so i am thinking not. and why compell him instead of setting up one of those tiny little fire bars that kill instantly? same for an ambush? why not set that bar in front of him and let him walk right into it??

 

**Open gateway, dive through, let it close on your heels.**

 

and if you do that, you are left to sorting yourself out while they are walking into the room, ruining the ambush.

 

**Lanfear and Moiraine disappeared through the only known entrance/exit to/from the Eelfinn. That doorway then melted and was consumed by fire.**

 

however right you may wish to be, in true rj style, we have hints scattered through the books before that that there is another way into and out of the finn's realm, and we can connect those realms from birgette and perrin's discussion. and later from kod. so you really can't rule that out. quit trying. puzzle pieces scattered about doesn't mean the puzzle won't work.

 

the only large assumptions for l/m are that they would be able to get back to the finns, and they would kill asmo with their request. every other assumption is reasonable with what we know. and lanfear requesting asmo's head is full compatible with the way she is. if the finns can touch the world enough to place you randomly on a planet, they can touch it enough to place one of the women in camelyn. if they can touch it to place them, it should work in reverse as well. and that is the biggest assumption. but logical.