one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I suppose we can't say we're familiar with it. Practically groping in the dark, looking for something that can't be seen or detected when properly and carefully done. Indications aren't good enough, Balthamel carrying off that servant's body would be so much easier, too, with it, but.. There were indications of Taim being Demandred too.

 

Unless there's a hidden confirmation of it, I suppose it's just a possibility. Well, other masks remain. This may also include a rippling invisility, that is not necessarily noticed.

[Jedimuppet]

Yea' date=' I suppose we can't say we're familiar with it. Practically groping in the dark, looking for something that can't be seen or detected when properly and carefully done. Indications aren't good enough, Balthamel carrying off that servant's body would be so much easier, too, with it, but.. There were indications of Taim being Demandred too.

 

Unless there's a hidden confirmation of it, I suppose it's just a possibility. Well, other masks remain. This may also include a rippling invisility, that is not necessarily noticed.[/quote']

 

My only point was who knows what else the Forsaken know and take for granted that has not yet been revealed to us? For us to speculate based on what we know is a little like a middle ages scribe speculating on the inner workings of a rocket...not likely to be right.

 

J

[Graendals favourite]

Quite so. And actually, what we are familiar with, is Forsaken sneaking up to all sorts of people, and anywhere, be it the White Tower, Tear, Illian or Seanchan.

 

So the evidence up to the murder points to Graendal being fully capable of snooping around the Palace to her heart's desire and not being found out. We may not know how, but the Forsaken certainly do. :D

[Jedimuppet]

Quite so. And actually' date=' what we are familiar with, is Forsaken sneaking up to all sorts of people, and anywhere, be it the White Tower, Tear, Illian or Seanchan.

 

So the evidence up to the murder points to Graendal being fully capable of snooping around the Palace to her heart's desire and not being found out. We may not know how, but the Forsaken certainly do. :D[/quote']

 

My thoughts exactly :)

J

[F Horn of Valere]

OMG You just combined two of my favorite things! Jedi you gotta come join SG!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jedi, you and Graendal's Favourite really just want to play "Wouldn't it be Cool IF..."

 

You invent ways for characters not known to be anywhere near the scene to be there. You invent capabilities nobody is known to have. Your reasoning is entirely circular. You arbitrarily pick a killer and then invent the "evidence" to support your pick. That's not solving, nor proving anything. It's just playing Wouldn't it be Cool IF.

 

There's nothing wrong with Wouldn't it be Cool IF, but it really belongs in a thread of its own. If that's all you guys want to do, here's a couple of problems to get you started:

 

1. What's a vacuole and how does it work?

 

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.

 

Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes.

 

2. How did Baalzy do that? One of the rules of magic in this mythos is supposed to be that one cannot levitate himself. So, how is it that Baalzy was floating near the tops of the columns and then floats down to hang two spans above the floor?

 

You guys should have a ball coming up with cool ways to explain those two things.

[Jedimuppet]

Jedi' date=' you and Graendal's Favourite really just want to play "Wouldn't it be Cool IF..."

 

You invent ways for characters not known to be anywhere near the scene to be there. You invent capabilities nobody is known to have. Your reasoning is entirely circular. You arbitrarily pick a killer and then invent the "evidence" to support your pick. That's not solving, nor proving anything. It's just playing Wouldn't it be Cool IF.

 

There's nothing wrong with Wouldn't it be Cool IF, but it really belongs in a thread of its own. If that's all you guys want to do, here's a couple of problems to get you started:

 

1. What's a vacuole and how does it work?

 

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.

 

Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes.

 

2. How did Baalzy do that? One of the rules of magic in this mythos is supposed to be that one cannot levitate himself. So, how is it that Baalzy was floating near the tops of the columns and then floats down to hang two spans above the floor?

 

You guys should have a ball coming up with cool ways to explain those two things.

 

Not so hard. It comes down to the fact that all of the main characters we know define possible and impossible in their terms. We dont' know if that's an accurate depiction of what actually is possible or not, and assuming it is doesn't make sense at all, since it's a theme that those barriers have been broken before.

 

If you want to approach this debate in terms of what the current AS think is possible then I think you'll end up being wrong. Healing stilling is impossible, for instance. Why should levitation be any less *impossible*. In fact, we know that people used to be able to fly in the AOL. I think it's a silly device to bring that stuff out.

 

It comes down to the fact that you want to make sure that anything used to kill Asmo is understood by Rand and CO. and I think it's very unlikely that's the case.

 

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob, they can't fly no. But they can make a stairway out of air and walk on it. Rand does the same thing when going to the Seafolk ship in Cairhien. Have Ba'alzamon throws in a little illusion, and, voila, he's "floating" at least well enough to fool someone with little to no training.

 

Illusion is a very powerful thing if you don't know what it is. Everyone except Lan, and maybe Thom, thought Moiraine stepped over the wall in Baerlon. That was more than just a simple Mask of Mirrors making her look bigger.

 

That said, Graendal's Favorite is making statements of fact that are completely unfounded. Contrary to his statements, just because Graendal could do something, in no way proves that she would or did. Just because she may have had a way to be in Caemlyn doesn't mean that she was.

[Jedimuppet]

Bob' date=' they can't fly no. But they can make a stairway out of air and walk on it. Rand does the same thing when going to the Seafolk ship in Cairhien. Have Ba'alzamon throws in a little illusion, and, voila, he's "floating" at least well enough to fool someone with little to no training.

 

Illusion is a very powerful thing if you don't know what it is. Everyone except Lan, and maybe Thom, thought Moiraine stepped over the wall in Baerlon. That was more than just a simple Mask of Mirrors making her look bigger.

 

That said, Graendal's Favorite is making statements of fact that are completely unfounded. Contrary to his statements, just because Graendal could do something, in no way proves that she would or did. Just because she may have had a way to be in Caemlyn doesn't mean that she was.[/quote']

 

If I understood Graendel's favorite's argument, it wasn't that it was a fact that Graendel did it, but that she shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as it seemed Bob wanted to.

 

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position. Bob seemed to have been saying it was impossible she was there, and think GF was saying that it was entirely possible, hence she could be the killer.

 

I've been wrong before, but that's what I took out of it.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, that's just playing more Wouldn't it be Cool If...

 

Any number of characters "could" have been there. None more or less likely than any other. Equally likely cases could be built for any of them if you're willing to build a case entirely on speculation.

 

What's the point? Suspects built wholly on speculation get us no nearer to solving the case.

[Jedimuppet]

And' date=' that's just playing more Wouldn't it be Cool If...

 

Any number of characters "could" have been there. None more or less likely than any other. Equally likely cases could be built for any of them if you're willing to build a case entirely on speculation.

 

What's the point? Suspects built wholly on speculation get us no nearer to solving the case.[/quote']

 

You're right, it "could" have been some random saldaean darkfriend...

J

[SinisterDeath]

Okay bob, Since you don't like playing the "what if game" then, Who was it then? Do you know who killed Asmo? Or are you just going to come in here every 5 posts and say "stop playing the what if game, until you get some facts!"?

What do you have that Isn't purely speculation? What makes your arguements, which arent really all that great, superior to ours? We've shot down every rebuttle you could have thrown out at us, regarding everything that you said wasn't a possibility in his murder. Now you are basically turtling and saying "don't play the what if game".

/bangs head to desk

/shrug

/walks into the shadows.

[SinisterDeath]

And' date=' that's just playing more Wouldn't it be Cool If...

 

Any number of characters "could" have been there. None more or less likely than any other. Equally likely cases could be built for any of them if you're willing to build a case entirely on speculation.

 

What's the point? Suspects built wholly on speculation get us no nearer to solving the case.[/quote']

 

You're right, it "could" have been some random saldaean darkfriend...

J

 

omg, What if!? can't be a random saldean, thats just another What If! :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

We've got to go with what the author gives us. What he has given us is a very limited list of suspects. Show me anyone else who Jordan has placed in the palace in Caemlyn.

[SinisterDeath]

You still havent told me who you think killed asmo. all you have said is that the only way you are going to answer is if Jordan tells you.

[Guest Majsju]

There are a number of people who does not need to be placed in Caemlyn around the time. Namely all those we know are able to Travel, ie all of the Forsaken.

[Graendals favourite]

My argument there was indeed that Graendal can't be disproved on the grounds that she couldn't be there, since she could be there.

 

But my main argument is that the murder-encounter couldn't be accidental, because if Asmodean should have surprised the killer, and then also the killer wouldn't have known Asmodean was alone, then events would have happened differently. What happened rules out an accidental encounter.

 

This on the grounds of things having to make sense from the point of view of the killer.

 

So, because to our knowledge the other alternative, an ambush, could only have been carried through by a female Forsaken, it names Graendal as a killer, since she was also capable of being there.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That just takes us back to endless speculation.

 

First you need to come up with a way for your Forsaken of choice to be free to move about. Then he/she needs to learn where Asmo is. Then you need to invent a reason strong enough to get them to take the risk of facing alone whatever Wards and Traps might be in place. Then you need to invent a way for them to get in, commit the crime, and get out again without being detected.

 

It's perfectly possible to invent all of those things for any character. Doing so proves nothing. It may be an entertaining exercise for whomever is doing it, but it doesn't provide us with the killer. No one set of suppositions can be demonstrated to be any stronger than any other set of suppositions.

 

Jordan has already told us that the clues are all there in The Fires of Heaven. That it is intuitively obvious to a casual reader.

 

That can only mean that we just need to read the words on the page. No convoluted series of speculations is required. Occam's Razor prevails. The simplest answer is the correct answer.

[Graendals favourite]

Occam's razor true, and the answer is simple, but not so.

 

What you need to do is first consider the murder scene, to deduct what happened. Then consider how it could have happened, and finally who did it.

 

What you call speculation is explaining what happened beyond that chain of reasoning, but it has little to do with the solving itself. The main thing is that a reasonable explanation exists.

 

Edit: I'll just further point out, that after the reasoning in the second paragraph here, the speculation is exactly what one doesn't need to do. Why speculate, when the work is already done? Except perhaps for the fun of thinking out theories of other events?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes. Asmo walked through a random door, met someone whom he knew and who knew him. That person killed him.

 

So, who has the author placed in position to be that person? Not, who would you, or I, or anyone else like it to be if we had our druthers, but, who did the author place there?

[Graendals favourite]

Yes. Asmo walked through a random door, met someone whom he knew and who knew him. That person killed him.

 

That description is too simple. What starts unravelling the case is:

 

He pulled open a small door, intending .... One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

 

I'll rephrase, the person who killed him was the person who was prepared to act and knew Asmodean was alone.

[goldeneys]

My argument there was indeed that Graendal can't be disproved on the grounds that she couldn't be there' date=' since she could be there.

 

But my main argument is that the murder-encounter couldn't be accidental, because if Asmodean should have surprised the killer, and then also the killer wouldn't have known Asmodean was alone, then events would have happened differently. What happened rules out an accidental encounter.

 

This on the grounds of things having to make sense from the point of view of the killer.

 

So, because to our knowledge the other alternative, an ambush, could only have been carried through by a female Forsaken, it names Graendal as a killer, since she was also capable of being there.[/quote']

 

 

I just want to say, that I don't know why I thought it was Graendal that killed him, it just seemed like she did, and I totally agree with everything in the above quote.

[SinisterDeath]

Bob, if all you have to offer to this debate, is how pointless it is, then why debate it anyways? All you are accomplishing, is making the topic off-topic...

Instead of furthering how stupid peoples areguments maybe to you, instead of riduculing about speculation. Actually contribute to who you think killed asmodean, instead of why you say there belief in who killed asmodean, isn't plausable because it requries speculation...

 

 

ALSO bob.

RJ said 2 things concerning Asmodean

1. All the information you need to know about who killed asmodean is in fires of heaven.

2. Info from later books, also further reveal who killed Asmodean., and HOW.

 

Hence forth. WE may not know exactly who killed Asmodean. But we do know this.

We know when, and where. And we can speculate HOW he was killed. IE balefire is a pretty damned good answer.

We know whom ever killed him, was able to get in and out with out anyone noticing.

If they used the onepower, they had to have had a way to hide it, Or be using the true power.

so it is quite reasonable to say that it was indeed a female channeler. But there are what 4 of them? 5?

We could also say some of the numerous male forsaken are the possible killers via the true power.

We know it can't be morridin, he wasnt introduced yet. Nor shadar Haren.

The darkone didnt order asmodean dead. So it couldnt have been slayer. It couldnt have been any of the aiel, nor could it have been fain. Fain would have went directly for rand not asmodean.

So we know that it had to be one of the forsaken. The only people with the motive AND the means to kill asmodean. Speculating on how asmodean was killed, helps us show how it is possible for x forsaken to have killed him. Saying all the information POST fires of heaven is pointless, is ignorant, when RJ himself stated *and you quite readilly have said many times that if rj said it, it's as good as true* that the infromation in the books after tfoh, only helps Elaborate how/when/where/who killed asmodean...

 

so once again, unless you have something to add to this debate besides "speculation, your post was completely pointless" why bother posting at all?

[Bob T Dwarf]

If Asmo had been assassinated ( which is what you posit happenend ) I think Jordan would not have described him as "roadkill." He would have used a term more indicative of the deliberate nature of Asmo's death.

[SinisterDeath]

So your basically saying asmodean saw a ghost and died accidently? What is your oppinon? Huh? O wait, you don't have one. and your view on him not being assassinated is... *gasp* A SPECULATION! I'll just ignore that theory then, because its perely speculation.