Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[MasterAblar]

Remember, the girls didn't skip 4-6 months like the boys did. Also tSR is actually pretty short time-wise as is FoH. LoC is months, then the remaining books are back to being a short amount of time.

 

However, I think Rahvin despite having hubris on a Beth-angar level would probably flawless victory an Eg/El/Ny attack at that point. Aes Sedai...nah, at least throwing a decent amount of them into it is going to mean a few BA. At that point, the Forsaken usually do make intelligent use of their abilities off the top of my head.

 

Egwene and Nyneave spent about 3 months in Tar Valon in tGH. The left with Liandrin quite a bit of time before Rand arrived at Toman Head. Nearly 2 months.

 

tSR is about six weeks long.

[Suttree]

He fought them because they attacked him, he had no choice in fighting him. The supergirls would not attack Rahvin thinking that their luck will save them, because they don't know they have plot protection, and therefore would not rely on it. Therefore they would not attack him, which means they will never get lucky and defeat him in their fight, simply because the fight would never happen.

 

If Rahvin held Andor, and the girls needed to remove him without Rand's help which is what we are discussing they would. They would come up with a plan and move against him. Under no circumstances would Elayne leave Andor in that situation.

 

Also the Aes Sedai might have ways of finding male channellers, but those are channellers who might not even know they're channelling, and if they do, they know close to nothing about it. Which is definitely not the case of Rahvin, who, if he does not want to be found, is very unlikely to be found. Not to mention that with the number of men in a city the size of Caemlyn, and Rahvin's ability to disguise himself with the power, they'd have an easier time finding a needle in a haystack. They would be as incapable of finding him as of finding Arangar.

 

If the AS had known there was a male channeling in the camp they would have found him. They weren't even looking for Arangar and that is much different than not being able to find him. In addition the AS worked out a way to sense when and potentially what a man is channeling. There is no reason that the Super Girls could not figure that out as well if they put there mind to it.

[ElusiveAthena]

For their part, I don't think Nynaeve and Elayne would be foolish enough to use Moghedien in the attack. Linking her in would make them a deadly force and more than sufficient counter to Rahvin in single combat, but they don't have the figurative short least necessary to ensure she won't turn on them.

 

 

 

Um, they could easily make sure Moghedien wouldn't turn on them, because of the a'dam. Egwene already proved it's physically impossible to "turn on" the person wearing the bracelet (in this case Nynaeve), and because betraying them indirectly to Rhavin would count as "turning on them" then Moghedien wouldn't be able to do it.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Um, they could easily make sure Moghedien wouldn't turn on them, because of the a'dam. Egwene already proved it's physically impossible to "turn on" the person wearing the bracelet (in this case Nynaeve), and because betraying them indirectly to Rhavin would count as "turning on them" then Moghedien wouldn't be able to do it.

 

There is more than one way to turn on someone, and I highly doubt that Egwene, Elayne or Nynaeve has the vile deficiency of morals that it would take to "train" Moghedien properly. In fact, much of the byplay that did involve the use of the a'dam was to treat it as a necessary evil to keep a deadly enemy under control. Could they have brought themselves resort to the destruction of ego and physical abuse necessary to ensure that someone as intelligent and manipulative as the Spider herself could find a way not to betray them in the course of the hunt? I can't see it, even under the most extreme scenario. They're not Seanchan. Egwene considers the thing an abomination, the other girls as a curious artifact somewhat akin to a dangerous snake.

 

Moreover, the a'dam is not a Binder like the Oath Rod, where an order is given and the leashed one is bound by every facet of interpretation that occurs to them. The user has to train the wearer of the leash to behave certain ways; Egwene makes that clear enough (ch 42, TGH). In fact, an order as incredibly broad as "don't betray us" could easily be manipulated by someone who understands what is happening to freeze themselves into complete inaction at the worst possible time for the girls.

 

Strangely enough, after looking it up on enc-wot, there's a notation indicating it can't be used to link damane. Didn't know that, but that would prevent whomever has her leash from using her properly, and allow her far more opportunity to betray by inaction. It should also be noted that the Salidar Sedai confiscated their other a'dam, and they would probably question the presence of "Marigan" strongly.

[ElusiveAthena]

I thought that when Egwene even though about using a jug as a weapon against Renna the a'dam caused her pain. I guess I assumed the a'dam prevented betrayal as an integral part of its makeup. Though I guess now that wouldn't be possible. :P

[Cybertrolloc]

Early bookism, psychological damage, changed premise...all of the above and more? :)

 

Sorry, I usually try to be more complete, was in reference to tSR being decades long or something. and I didn't check to see how long the girls were in Falme

[David Selig]

Um, they could easily make sure Moghedien wouldn't turn on them, because of the a'dam. Egwene already proved it's physically impossible to "turn on" the person wearing the bracelet (in this case Nynaeve), and because betraying them indirectly to Rhavin would count as "turning on them" then Moghedien wouldn't be able to do it.

 

There is more than one way to turn on someone, and I highly doubt that Egwene, Elayne or Nynaeve has the vile deficiency of morals that it would take to "train" Moghedien properly. In fact, much of the byplay that did involve the use of the a'dam was to treat it as a necessary evil to keep a deadly enemy under control. Could they have brought themselves resort to the destruction of ego and physical abuse necessary to ensure that someone as intelligent and manipulative as the Spider herself could find a way not to betray them in the course of the hunt? I can't see it, even under the most extreme scenario. They're not Seanchan. Egwene considers the thing an abomination, the other girls as a curious artifact somewhat akin to a dangerous snake.

"Marigan" strongly.

Nynaeve took the collared Moggy to fight Rahvin immediately after she captured her, without any training in obedience, and it worked fine. Once the a'dam is in place, there's really nothing the collared can do to betray her mistress without outside help.

[Mr Ares]

I fail to see why - for Rahvin, he can see Rand's weaves and cut them, he cannot do the same for the girls. Wielding the opposite side of the Source gives advantages and disadvantages. Same with the same side. In either case, the advantage still lies with Rahvin as he is still the one with the greater knowledge and experience, thus the one best able to counter the disadvantages and capitalise on the advantages.

 

The advantages and disadvantages that Rahvin has in fighting Rand go both way. However there is a huge disadvantage in fighting someone who wields the opposite side of the source which is that you cannot see their weaves and therefore cannot defend against them, unless you know how to cut them. Which Rahvin does and therefore that huge disadvantage no longer exists for him. The girls on the other hand do not have the ability to cut his weaves and therefore the huge disadvantage still exists for them. And there is no advantage that Rahvin has over Rand that is as important as the one he has over the girls. He has more experience than Rand and more knowledge, but Rand can defend against him, without resorting to guessing what Rahvin is going to throw at him. The girls cannot. I Rahvin tries to blow their heads up, there is nothing they can do. They don't know how. Rand on the other hand could. That is, to me, a huge difference.

You have yet to establish that the girls couldn't cut his weaves. Rand couldn't cut a woman's weaves until he faced a woman. He learnt on the job. They have the theory. They have demonstrated they can cut. They will never cut a man's weaves if they don't have a man's weaves to cut.

 

I fail to see why it's important that Rand chose some fights and not others.

 

For you to get lucky in a fight, there has to be a fight in the first place. You said that the girls could get lucky in their fight against Rahvin just like Rand did against his early opponents. Rand did not decide to fight the Forsaken in the early books because he thought his luck would save him. He fought them because they attacked him, he had no choice in fighting him.

While Rand didn't start the fights, he was also not inclined to run away, to try and end them early. He went on the offensive. Look at TDR - Ishy runs into T'a'r, and Rand follows him and hunts him down. Also, bear in mind Rand went to Be'lal in that case, Be'lal did not come to him. Be'lal was in the defensive position. The girls needn't go into a fight with Rahvin believing their luck will save them - but they have every reason to into battle with him. If the Chosen hadn't come to Rand, it would only have delayed his going to them. You have put forward no real reason to believe that a fight would never happen - without Rand, fighting the Chosen remains imperative. You change the timeline of events, not the necessity of them happening. Sooner or later they would have to deal with him. There would have to be a fight in the first place. Maybe not book 5, maybe not book 6, but some book. Someone has to take him down. Rand did it because he got there first. Remove him from the equation and someone else will have to try. The girls have every reason to, and no reason not to.

 

Whether or not Rahvin decides to face them head on depends on a number of factors - if masses of AS arrive in Caemlyn, backed by armed guards, no surprise if he realises something is up. Send in a couple to engage him while a couple more sneak in under the radar means he doesn't run because he won't see the knife until it strikes. And women have ways of finding male channelers - in a situation like Aran'gar in Salidar, Rahvin is at the disadvantage of them knowing he is a man, rather than not knowing about a saidin channeling woman. As for planning, they know there is a Chosen, they know who he is. That's a start. Caemlyn is not a complete unknown.

 

And how long does that couple have to engage him for? Moiraine, the strongest Aes Sedai in the WT, apart from Cadsuane, who really doesn't bother with the WT, lasted all of a few seconds in front of Lanfear, and Lanfear was barely paying attention to her. The first group that attacks him would last no longer than she did.

Lanfear was stronger than Rahvin, ready for a fight, and not faced with a group of channelers who were trying to kill her in the same way as Rahvin would be in this hypothetical situation. That's a very different situation. There is every reason to believe they would last longer.

The second group would not even have time to plant a knife in his back. Not to mention that by the end of tFoH, Rahvin has wards set up, so good luck sneaking up on him. Which is why knowing he is a Chosen and knowing he is posing as Gaebril, is barely any help at all. They have no idea what he is capable of, or how much he knows. They don't know what they're facing. If Rand had not known what to expect from Sammael, he would have died. But he knew to a certain extent what to expect from an AoL channeller, and probably more precisely from Sammael.

I never said it would be easy. But they will have some idea what they are up against.

 

Also the Aes Sedai might have ways of finding male channellers, but those are channellers who might not even know they're channelling, and if they do, they know close to nothing about it. Which is definitely not the case of Rahvin, who, if he does not want to be found, is very unlikely to be found. Not to mention that with the number of men in a city the size of Caemlyn, and Rahvin's ability to disguise himself with the power, they'd have an easier time finding a needle in a haystack. They would be as incapable of finding him as of finding Arangar. And while they're looking, he'll be picking them off one by one, with them being completely unable to know there is man channelling at them, until it's too late. It won't take very long for the Aes Sedai to realise that they're in a death trap.

Rahvin seems unusually eager to stay in the presence of his enemies. Why doesn't he simply retreat and create a new power base? Months of skulking in the shadows isn't exactly in character.

 

When Rand started with Asmo he couldn't even reliably grasp the Source - that's not a sign of having the basics down, that is a sign of the basics being absent.

Are you sure about that?

Completely. Asmo speaks of his progress in FoH3: "'You can grasp saidin every time you try, now, and tell one flow from another. You can shield yourself, and the Power does what you want it to.'" When Rand began his training, he could do a few things on instinct, but the basics were woefully lacking. When Egwene arrived at the Tower, she could grasp the Source reliably - that gives her the basics, meaning she can much sooner make a start on the meat of her training, while Rand is stuck at lesson one. He could do a few fancy things, but not reliably. Egwene could do less was but was reliable in doing it. And as Rand himself notes, Asmo is not a good teacher. The girls all likely had much better teachers, albeit ones with less to teach. All the time that Rand spends mastering the basics he is not learning fancy AoL weaves. And as we have seen, there were things Asmo didn't teach him - either he didn't know how to teach them, or Rand couldn't learn. Not knowing how to Travel, for example. He couldn't demonstrate that (or just wouldn't). By the way, Egwene was an apprentice of the WO, just like Avi. She didn't get let out of lessons just for being AS. So yes, she did learn some channeling from them.

 

The right knowledge pops into his head. The same happens to the girls - maybe not in fights, but it happens nonetheless. The principle is exactly the same. It happens less for the girls because they lack his insanity and they lack his number of fights where such knowledge is needed.

 

Not exactly. I would say that for the girls, it's not that knowledge suddenly pops into his head, it's that they weave something by instinct, often due to emotion, precisely without knowing what they're doing. Then they'll realise what they did, and I either remember it or not, probably depending on whether they were paying attention what they were doing or something else. This kind of thing probably happens to Rand too, afterall it seems pretty common. But in addition to that he has knowledge that comes from LTT, which is knowlegde that often comes at exactly the right time, and it's also fairly advanced weaves. He also knows exactly what he's doing when he does it. He doesn't necessarily what it'll do, but he knows what he's weaving. He suddenly thinks something like "Fire, spirit, and earth, weaved so", which shows that he knows what he's doing. He just doesn't know how he knows. This doesn't happen to the girls, simply because they don't have the memories from one of the greatest channellers of the AoL coming from their subconscious. They have the first type, which happens to everyone, and is completely random. The knowledge from LTT is hardly random, it comes when he needs it, such as when is in a fight for his life.

I fail to see any substantive difference. Whether what comes to you in a flash is past life knowledge or just something you've made up, it's still knowledge coming to you in a flash. They do fairly advanced weaves by instinct, he does it by instinct sometimes, memory others. So what?

 

To an extent. But it is still possible to raise shields - even shields against everything. Like Rand did. Rand didn't know what he was shielding against but did it anyway.

 

She can use a shield, yes, but there has to be effects that can be shielded from. Does it keep out weaves as well?

Yes.

 

It is stated that they know. Whether they knew then or not, I'm not sure off the top of my head, but they certainly know by the end of the series.

 

You're sure about that? They've never faced male channellers, so how could they have demonstrated their ability? They don't need to cut a woman's weaves since they can see the weaves and just block them. In WH, when Elayne meets Taim she says she knows little more than the theory of what's probably cutting a man's weaves. But the theory won't be nearly enough against Rahvin. Asmodean said it's very hard to grasp without a partner of the opposite gender to practice against, and indeed, Rand doesn't succeed until he fights against Lanfear, and the understanding of how to do it clearly comes from LTT. The girls have no one to practice against. The girls would be going into a fight against Rahvin hoping to master the skill on their first try. Not a very good idea.

Firstly, I think you're inventing a distinction between cutting and blocking - in the same sex fights we've seen they generally go to cut another woman's weaves. You say Rand only had the theory until he faced Lanfear, but the theory isn't enough for the girls facing Rahvin. Double standard. Rand couldn't cut women's weaves until he had a woman's weaves to cut. They know how to cut. They can't see a man's weaves. They'll cut something they can't see, same as Rand did.

 

Rand and Rahvin can see each others weaves. So it is easier for them to cut each others weaves, and Rahvin has more experience of cutting eaves, and things like reversing weaves, but it is harder for the girls and Rahvin to cut each others weaves.

 

Rand and Rahvin don't need to cut each other's weaves. They can see them, therefore they can block them. Cutting is only necessary against people using the opposite side of the source.

But they cut anyway. Not block.

 

If Rand isn't going to use the advantages the Asha'man give him it renders them moot.

 

He can still use them to fight the rebels. Just don't make them slaughter people who may not be guilty. Use them in places where there will be no controversy, no reason to be hesitant. If rebels are harassing his armies, there is no reason for Ashaman, whether andoran or not, to not fight them. It's more in a case like executing villagers who you think might be helping the rebels, where there could be an issue.

So when do you use them? They hit and disappear into the crowds. How do you separate them from the crowd?

 

Except they do have a reason to attack him. How else are they to remove one of the Chosen from the throne of Andor? Say, "Please will you fight our battles for us, Rand?" So Elayne has a good reason to move against Rahvin - she undoubtedly would have done if Rand had not done it first.

She wouldn't if it means nearly certain death.

It doesn't.

 

You ignored my point. It is not Andor's job to deal with channelers. It is not Illian's. It is not Tear's. It is the Tower's. Saying the WT cannot do its job is not a positive.

 

True, but a Forsaken is not any random channeller. The average channeller would be the WT's problem, as well as that of the country he is in. But a Forsaken, just like a false dragon such as Amalasan, is, if he becomes powerful enough. the whole world's problem, not just the WT's. Which is why asking Rand for assistance with a Forsaken should be just fine. Of course she shouldn't yell it out loud, that she's asking the DR to help them with Mesaana, especially with the situation in ToM, but asking someone's help is not saying they can't do the job without that help (afterall they did), it's just giving yourself the best chance possible. Dealing with the Forsaken is as much Rand's job as it is the WT's, perhaps even more, as he is the one best suited for it. Refusing to ask for his help is simply being overproud, not wanting to admit that he could be very helpfull to a fight that, in truth, concerns him quite a bit.

The Chosen are a threat to everyone, and are thus everyone's problem. But channelers of all stripes are a problem that AS are meant to deal with because they are best equipped to deal with them. Thus Mesaana is the WT's problem. True, she is Rand's as well, because she is everyones. That's no reason to ask everyone for help. Rand isn't needed. He might be helpful, but then again he could be a crazy man, and that could be decidedly counterproductive. He could use this as leverage over you, which is counterproductive. Asking for Rand's help brings with it downsides. The WT should be able to deal with the problem, and demonstrate that it can deal with the problem, even if only to its own. Involving Rand works against that.

[XXX]

The shield Rand used in Cairhien is I think an AoL shield..I am pretty sure that the girls had and still have no idea how to create such a shield (or for that matter any other channeler male or female other than the forsaken)

[Eht Slat Meit]

Nynaeve took the collared Moggy to fight Rahvin immediately after she captured her, without any training in obedience, and it worked fine. Once the a'dam is in place, there's really nothing the collared can do to betray her mistress without outside help.

 

To my understanding, there are two points to consider here - first, Nynaeve was involved in a multi-pronged attack, attacking Rahvin herself, not forcing Moghedien to fight Rahvin, thus not backing a terrified (in shock) and freshly collared Forsaken into a figurative corner. Given the time the Rahvin-Hypothetical would require, Moghedien is given extra time to manipulate and plot. Secondly, iirc, Nynaeve's portion of the fight took place in TAR. There is a radical difference between running headlong through TAR without a plan and a structured assault by half of the Tower infiltrated by a rat's nest of Forsaken and Black Ajah, particularly when one of those Forsaken has had time to think about the circumstances she's in.

 

By removing Mat and Rand from the equation, all element of the ta'veren plot cheat is removed, and by giving Moghedien the opportunity to work where she works best... that being in hiding to plot and scheme, and among people she can manipulate, she would eliminate the advantage of having Moghedien not screw her over at a key time. Which would be very, very easy, when you have a serving maid named Marigan who really has no business being present at an Aes Sedai battle with a Forsaken.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I thought that when Egwene even though about using a jug as a weapon against Renna the a'dam caused her pain. I guess I assumed the a'dam prevented betrayal as an integral part of its makeup. Though I guess now that wouldn't be possible. :P

 

It's manipulation of the mind; the sul'dam actually have to train her to think that way. A pitcher doesn't stop being what it is, the person's interpretation of the pitcher is what prevents them from using it, either as a weapon or to drink from. Egwene was able to convince herself that the pitcher was no longer a weapon, but she had to mean and believe it. Renna didn't tell her the pitcher was no longer a weapon, nor did the a'dam suddenly shift mechanisms. That's an endogenous state, coming from within Egwene, not without. Also a reason why the a'dam is brutally effective, a person convincing oneself of something progresses training far more rapidly than a sul'dam doing it.

[MasterAblar]

If Rahvin held Andor, and the girls needed to remove him without Rand's help which is what we are discussing they would. They would come up with a plan and move against him. Under no circumstances would Elayne leave Andor in that situation.

 

A suicidal attack on Rahvin is no way to help your country. I'm certain she would do everything in her power to force him out of Andor, but she doesn't have the ability to do so. She can force him out either by calling upon the WT, or going to Rand. The problem with the first option is that Rahvin would never confront such a force head on, and therefore a fight would never take place.

 

If the AS had known there was a male channeling in the camp they would have found him. They weren't even looking for Arangar and that is much different than not being able to find him. In addition the AS worked out a way to sense when and potentially what a man is channeling. There is no reason that the Super Girls could not figure that out as well if they put there mind to it.

 

A camp is not a city. If Rahvin was hiding in the Aes Sedai camp, they may have been able to find him, but there weren't that many men in the Aes Sedai camp itself. In a city the size of Caemlyn however, finding the one man among thousands who can channel is impossible. Particularly since the man is trying to hide from you, and is very knowlegable on how to do so.

 

As for the Aes Sedai weave, it doesn't let you sense the channeling of saidin, it lets you sense if one man that you're using the weave against is channelling. It's unlikely Rahvin would even let himself be seen by the Aes Sedai. Furthermore the Aes Sedai cannot sense if a man can channel. They sense the residues left by his weaves, and then track him down from there. That's not going to work in a city the size of Caemlyn.

 

You have yet to establish that the girls couldn't cut his weaves. Rand couldn't cut a woman's weaves until he faced a woman. He learnt on the job. They have the theory. They have demonstrated they can cut. They will never cut a man's weaves if they don't have a man's weaves to cut.

 

How have they demonstrated that they can cut a man's weaves? They've never done it. Is it really a good idea to go into a fight against an opponent who has the advantage in everything but numbers, and hope that you'll manage to do the most important weave for the fight on your first try? They won't get a second chance against an opponent as dangerous as Rahvin.

 

Rand managed it on his first try, but he didn't aggress a Forsaken thinking he would. Lanfear attacked him, and luckily for him, he got knowledge from LTT showing just how to cut her weaves. Not only is managing to cut weaves on your first try not something you bet your life on (unless you're Mat, and even then, it's a bad idea), but Rand succeeded because he had LTT, which is not an advantage the girls have.

 

While Rand didn't start the fights, he was also not inclined to run away, to try and end them early. He went on the offensive. Look at TDR - Ishy runs into T'a'r, and Rand follows him and hunts him down. Also, bear in mind Rand went to Be'lal in that case, Be'lal did not come to him. Be'lal was in the defensive position. The girls needn't go into a fight with Rahvin believing their luck will save them - but they have every reason to into battle with him. If the Chosen hadn't come to Rand, it would only have delayed his going to them. You have put forward no real reason to believe that a fight would never happen - without Rand, fighting the Chosen remains imperative. You change the timeline of events, not the necessity of them happening. Sooner or later they would have to deal with him. There would have to be a fight in the first place. Maybe not book 5, maybe not book 6, but some book. Someone has to take him down. Rand did it because he got there first. Remove him from the equation and someone else will have to try. The girls have every reason to, and no reason not to.

 

Did Rand know Bel'al was in Tear? Moiraine knew, but why should Rand have known? Furthermore he didn't attack Bel'al, he went for Callandor. As for Ishamael, Rand had Callandor, and it was hardly something Rand had time to think about. He was in the middle of a battle and he'd just sent Ishamael running. Pursing him probably looked like a good idea. Not to mention that Rand had no way of knowing if Ishamael is running away or simply trying a different tactit than attacking head on, which is a bad idea when Rand has Callandor.

 

Rand would have had to fight the Chosen eventually yes, but when he was capable of doing so. Without him, the Chosen must still be fought, but that doesn't mean you throw yourself at them in a fight you will probably lose. Attacking them on their turf is a bad idea. Make them come to you instead if you can. Someone has to take the Forsaken out, but it can't be anybody. If the girls decided that Rahvin needed to be taken out, they wouldn't go on their own. They would overwhelm him with numbers, and therefor they would call on the WT. Only Rahvin would never fight them head on.

 

Lanfear was stronger than Rahvin, ready for a fight, and not faced with a group of channelers who were trying to kill her in the same way as Rahvin would be in this hypothetical situation. That's a very different situation. There is every reason to believe they would last longer.

 

I don't think it's clear at all that Lanfear is stronger than Rahvin, in fact I think the contrary is more probable.

 

How were Egwene, Aviendha, Moiraine, and Rand not trying to kill her, or at least defeat her, in the same way as those attacking Rahvin would? Lanfear didn't even take Egwene, Aviendha, and Moiraine out by surprise, they were just insects to her, not even capable of putting up a real fight. The difference was far too great in every way. Surprise is the only thing the group attacking Rahvin might have, and with his wards it's not even all that likely. Even then, seeing the ease with which Lanfear took out three women who are stronger than anything the Aes Sedai could throw at Rahvin, I don't think it's very likely the fight would last long than mere instants.

 

I never said it would be easy. But they will have some idea what they are up against.

 

Yes, and it's the relative smallness of that idea that should dissuade them from this course of action.

 

Rahvin seems unusually eager to stay in the presence of his enemies. Why doesn't he simply retreat and create a new power base? Months of skulking in the shadows isn't exactly in character.

 

Months? How long do you think the Aes Sedai will remain in Caemlyn when they see their sisters dying right and left? He'll make Caemlyn into a deathtrap. Besides Andor is the most powerful country in the westlands, why should he give that up? With travelling he hardly needs to stay in Caemlyn all the time, so it's not like he's living in mud either.

 

I fail to see any substantive difference. Whether what comes to you in a flash is past life knowledge or just something you've made up, it's still knowledge coming to you in a flash. They do fairly advanced weaves by instinct, he does it by instinct sometimes, memory others. So what?

 

Well, first of all the ones by memory happen far more often. Rand says it himself that it happens all the time. Rand clearly does far more things without having learned how to do them than any other channeller. Also, the weaves that come instinctively come far more randomely than those by memories. The right knowledge always comes to Rand exactly when he needs it. That's not a coincidence. That doesn't happen to the girls. And even if it did, it's not something you rely on going into a fight. You don't rely on luck going into a fight for your life. Rand never did, and he has a far better chance of getting the knowledge he needs at just the right time than the girls do.

 

She can use a shield, yes, but there has to be effects that can be shielded from. Does it keep out weaves as well?

Yes.

 

That's not certain. When he uses it he's defending against fire and debris and says everything but balefire will be kept out, including air. None of those are weaves, the fire and balefire being the result of weaves. It's not really clear if Rand includes weaves in "everything". Regardless, like XXX47 said, it's very unlikely anyone but an AoL knows how to do that. It's way to advanced.

 

Firstly, I think you're inventing a distinction between cutting and blocking - in the same sex fights we've seen they generally go to cut another woman's weaves. You say Rand only had the theory until he faced Lanfear, but the theory isn't enough for the girls facing Rahvin. Double standard. Rand couldn't cut women's weaves until he had a woman's weaves to cut. They know how to cut. They can't see a man's weaves. They'll cut something they can't see, same as Rand did.

 

True, Nyneave did cut Moghedien's weave, so I suppose they have shown they can do it against women. Although they don't always cut in same-sex fights. Since they see the weaves, they can come up with other ways to defend against them.

 

That said, Rand did not choose to face Lanfear with only the theory. She attacked him. He managed it on his first try thanks to LTT. The girls would be attacking Rahvin having never cut a man's weaves before, so they would be hoping to manage it on their first try. That's not a good idea.

 

But they cut anyway. Not block.

 

Actually, they never did cut. They could have, but they didn't. However, that's probably mostly because they never saw the other's weaves. Rahvin did not face Rand head on, probably because Rand had an angreal. So they were never faced with any weaves, only the effect of those weaves.

 

So when do you use them? They hit and disappear into the crowds. How do you separate them from the crowd?

 

You use them when you can separate them from the crowds. Otherwise, their use is admitidly limited. Unless you're willing to risk innocents being killed that is. Still, the very presence of male channellers to begin with is a deterrent.

 

It doesn't.

 

According to you perhaps. To me, defeat is definitely far more likely than the opposite.

 

The Chosen are a threat to everyone, and are thus everyone's problem. But channelers of all stripes are a problem that AS are meant to deal with because they are best equipped to deal with them. Thus Mesaana is the WT's problem. True, she is Rand's as well, because she is everyones. That's no reason to ask everyone for help. Rand isn't needed. He might be helpful, but then again he could be a crazy man, and that could be decidedly counterproductive. He could use this as leverage over you, which is counterproductive. Asking for Rand's help brings with it downsides. The WT should be able to deal with the problem, and demonstrate that it can deal with the problem, even if only to its own. Involving Rand works against that.

 

Well, obviously there's no need to ask help from some random farmer in Amadicia. Ask it form those who could be useful. Rand is one of those, since he actually might be very helpful. He could be crazy of course, but she just needs to check that he isn't first before deciding that is information/advice/opinion is valid. That said, his insanity is not the reason she has given for not asking for his help. As for using it as leverage, Egwene should just make sure to tell him that his help won't make her support him. If Rand refuses to help them then, well there's nothing Egwene can do about it. She's asked, he's refused. Although of course, if she considers that his opinion is valid in this case, it would be sort of stupid of her to not at least hear him out on other things on the basis that she thinks he's insane. Not neccesarily support him, but hear him out. As for being able to deal with the problem on their own, I don't thing many people are paying attention at this point. Seeing the WT and the DR work together would surely come off as positive to most people. At worst, if she's that worried about the WT's image, she doesn't need to ask for his help in public.

[Suttree]

A camp is not a city. If Rahvin was hiding in the Aes Sedai camp, they may have been able to find him, but there weren't that many men in the Aes Sedai camp itself. In a city the size of Caemlyn however, finding the one man among thousands who can channel is impossible. Particularly since the man is trying to hide from you, and is very knowlegable on how to do so.

 

and yet Red's have been finding channelers the world over for thousands of years and Moiraine as you mentioned did so in Tear as well.

Also are there thousands of male channelers in Caemlyn? In just about every aspect of this situation you are trying to make a very difficult task sound impossible.

[Eht Slat Meit]

and yet Red's have been finding channelers the world over for thousands of years and Moiraine as you mentioned did so in Tear as well.

 

Were it a matter of simply hunting out the random male channeling Forsaken from the haystack, they'd be up a stream without a paddle. The reason Reds have been successfully hunting down male channelers is because those same male channelers suffer from the taint and the usual problems of being wilders without teachers. While they may keep their secrets for awhile, eventually they lose control, and Reds can track them by gossip and rumor, no doubt looking for certain telltale signs that I seem to recall Moiraine mentioning way back in the beginning.

 

A male Forsaken doesn't have those problems, and they can't simply track him down with no information.

 

That said, both in the books and the Rahvin Hypothetical, they know exactly where Rahvin aka Lord Gaebril is. Question is, could they actually pull off the hunt without ripping the Little Tower and Caemlyn into shreds? Doesn't seem likely.

[Suttree]

A male Forsaken doesn't have those problems, and they can't simply track him down with no information.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine who seemed to do something similar to that with Bel'al.

[ElusiveAthena]

The reason the Reds could find the male channellers is because they went mad and started causing havoc. Apart from Thom's nephew, but I think he was found because Thom had a relationship with Aes Sedai, or at least was in their close proximity.

[Eht Slat Meit]

A male Forsaken doesn't have those problems, and they can't simply track him down with no information.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine who seemed to do something similar to that with Bel'al.

 

Ever wondered exactly how and why? What I mean is, there are at least two instances, 6 chapters apart (TDR) where Moiraine pops up with information the exact identities of Forsaken and where they rule. If you take things strictly at face value, Moiraine somehow managed to not only figure out which Highlord was a Forsaken within the space of a couple of hours, but that the specific "secret identity" of that High Lord. Granted, there's not that many Forsaken males to divine the information from, but still....

 

Unless there's something that I've overlooked, I'm thinking that Moiraine already outed Verin as Black Ajah some time earlier and has a short list of known Forsaken and their domains.

[Eht Slat Meit]

deleted repost

[MasterAblar]

and yet Red's have been finding channelers the world over for thousands of years and Moiraine as you mentioned did so in Tear as well.

Also are there thousands of male channelers in Caemlyn? In just about every aspect of this situation you are trying to make a very difficult task sound impossible.

 

Maybe I worded that badly. I meant that out of the thousands of men in Caemlyn there is only one who can channel. Well actually there are probably a few others who could learn, but that's not really important.

 

The reds find them through rumor and hearsay, and I think through the residues left by his weaves which is probably how they confirm that there is a male channeller in the area. They already know Rahvin is in Caemlyn. The channellers the reds find don't know anything about the power. Maybe if they went and secluded themselves in the mountains they'd be able to hide, but otherwise they'll end up attracting attention, which ultmitaly means Aes Sedai.

 

As for how Moiraine found Bel'al and Sammael, that always was odd. It's understandable how she was able to confirm that there were Forsaken in the cities through the dreams people were having. However being able to give their exact identity is strange. The best answer is probably eavesdropping, but that's not all that satisfying.

 

That said, both in the books and the Rahvin Hypothetical, they know exactly where Rahvin aka Lord Gaebril is. Question is, could they actually pull off the hunt without ripping the Little Tower and Caemlyn into shreds? Doesn't seem likely.

 

I understand about Caemlyn, but why would the Little Tower be in danger?

[Mr Ares]

If Rahvin held Andor, and the girls needed to remove him without Rand's help which is what we are discussing they would. They would come up with a plan and move against him. Under no circumstances would Elayne leave Andor in that situation.

 

A suicidal attack on Rahvin is no way to help your country. I'm certain she would do everything in her power to force him out of Andor, but she doesn't have the ability to do so.

Yes, she does. We've been telling you that for several pages.

 

You have yet to establish that the girls couldn't cut his weaves. Rand couldn't cut a woman's weaves until he faced a woman. He learnt on the job. They have the theory. They have demonstrated they can cut. They will never cut a man's weaves if they don't have a man's weaves to cut.

 

How have they demonstrated that they can cut a man's weaves?

Read what I wrote again.

Is it really a good idea to go into a fight against an opponent who has the advantage in everything but numbers, and hope that you'll manage to do the most important weave for the fight on your first try?

You overstate the importance of cutting weaves. I'ts useful, but not the most important trick to have in a fight to the death. The object of the exercise is to kill Rahvin, or drive him from Caemlyn. You won't do that by cutting weaves unless you are so good at it he eventually gives up and goes somewhere else. Cutting weaves is a defensive measure and the girls would need to be on the offensive. Cutting weaves is only of secondary importance. Whether they know it or not doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. That said, they know how to cut weaves, they've just never done it on a man. Nor can they until there is a man chaneling at them.

 

While Rand didn't start the fights, he was also not inclined to run away, to try and end them early. He went on the offensive. Look at TDR - Ishy runs into T'a'r, and Rand follows him and hunts him down. Also, bear in mind Rand went to Be'lal in that case, Be'lal did not come to him. Be'lal was in the defensive position. The girls needn't go into a fight with Rahvin believing their luck will save them - but they have every reason to into battle with him. If the Chosen hadn't come to Rand, it would only have delayed his going to them. You have put forward no real reason to believe that a fight would never happen - without Rand, fighting the Chosen remains imperative. You change the timeline of events, not the necessity of them happening. Sooner or later they would have to deal with him. There would have to be a fight in the first place. Maybe not book 5, maybe not book 6, but some book. Someone has to take him down. Rand did it because he got there first. Remove him from the equation and someone else will have to try. The girls have every reason to, and no reason not to.

 

Did Rand know Bel'al was in Tear? Moiraine knew, but why should Rand have known? Furthermore he didn't attack Bel'al, he went for Callandor.

And Be'lal was there. He found Be'lal, and then attacked him. But whehter Rand knew Be'lal was in Tear in unimportant. It still puts Rand in the position of attacking, Be'lal as defending. It's just an unplanned attack.

 

Lanfear was stronger than Rahvin, ready for a fight, and not faced with a group of channelers who were trying to kill her in the same way as Rahvin would be in this hypothetical situation. That's a very different situation. There is every reason to believe they would last longer.

 

I don't think it's clear at all that Lanfear is stronger than Rahvin, in fact I think the contrary is more probable.

Lanfear was the second strongest Chosen. It's pretty clear cut.

 

How were Egwene, Aviendha, Moiraine, and Rand not trying to kill her, or at least defeat her, in the same way as those attacking Rahvin would?

They weren't trying to kill her. That's quite different. And she did take them by surprise. So comparing people who are not prepared to face a Chosen with people who are prepared to face a Chosen, comparing the stronger Lanfear with the weaker Rahvin, and Avi, Egwene and Rand not trying to kill Lanfear with a hypothetical Elayne, Nynaeve and others trying to kill Rahvin and saying that as Lanfear had numerous advantages Rahvin doesn't, he would clearly win is ludicrous.

 

Rahvin seems unusually eager to stay in the presence of his enemies. Why doesn't he simply retreat and create a new power base? Months of skulking in the shadows isn't exactly in character.

 

Months? How long do you think the Aes Sedai will remain in Caemlyn when they see their sisters dying right and left?

How quickly will he be killing them? One a dy? A week? A fortnight? The more active he is, the greater the chances of him getting caught. And again, this is all grossly out of character for him. He has lost his base of power. He won't stay put. He'll attempt to get Caemlyn back in a way his talents are more suited to. Diplomacy, subterfuge, compulsion. He's a politician, not an assassin. Retreat makes far more sense in terms of his character.

 

I fail to see any substantive difference. Whether what comes to you in a flash is past life knowledge or just something you've made up, it's still knowledge coming to you in a flash. They do fairly advanced weaves by instinct, he does it by instinct sometimes, memory others. So what?

 

Well, first of all the ones by memory happen far more often. Rand says it himself that it happens all the time. Rand clearly does far more things without having learned how to do them than any other channeller. Also, the weaves that come instinctively come far more randomely than those by memories. The right knowledge always comes to Rand exactly when he needs it. That's not a coincidence. That doesn't happen to the girls.

Yes, it does. It's just they need it less often because they've had a better training. And that better training makes them less reliant on luck than Rand ever was.

 

So when do you use them? They hit and disappear into the crowds. How do you separate them from the crowd?

You use them when you can separate them from the crowds.

As you can't do that, you never use them.

 

The Chosen are a threat to everyone, and are thus everyone's problem. But channelers of all stripes are a problem that AS are meant to deal with because they are best equipped to deal with them. Thus Mesaana is the WT's problem. True, she is Rand's as well, because she is everyones. That's no reason to ask everyone for help. Rand isn't needed. He might be helpful, but then again he could be a crazy man, and that could be decidedly counterproductive. He could use this as leverage over you, which is counterproductive. Asking for Rand's help brings with it downsides. The WT should be able to deal with the problem, and demonstrate that it can deal with the problem, even if only to its own. Involving Rand works against that.

 

Well, obviously there's no need to ask help from some random farmer in Amadicia. Ask it form those who could be useful.

Any involvement by Rand is counterproductive. As I said: "The WT should be able to deal with the problem, and demonstrate that it can deal with the problem, even if only to its own. Involving Rand works against that." Any involvement by Rand indicates you cannot deal with your own problems, which is bad for morale, bad for your image. Unless you keep it secret from all the other AS. Demonstrating that the AS and DR can work together is useful. Demonstrating that the AS need the DR isn't.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I understand about Caemlyn, but why would the Little Tower be in danger?

 

Looking at the Little Tower more closely - I mentioned earlier that the WT proper was under the firm hold of Mesaana at the time, because Elaida was simply incompetent for the role and could be manipulated as needed. The LT, while infiltrated by their own Forsaken in the form of Halima, didn't have the same problem. While their upper ranks had choice agents of the Black Ajah, Halima was unable to take a direct hand in matters and actively participate as Mesaana/Danelle did. That's not to say that the Black Ajah were a worthless influence, but still, the position is on the outside looking in, and since Halima was only recently placed there, with no real understanding of the modern day WT, s/he was completely dependent on the BA for influence.

 

Despite the number of Forsaken with fingers in the pot (mentioned earlier), that -should- work in the LT's favor, right?

 

I already discussed why I thought the Hunt for Rahvin would be a wash, and I still believe that - at the time, the Red Ajah was not part of the LT, iirc, leaving less experienced hunters to go after Rahvin.

 

The Aes Sedai aren't stupid though. I think it's fair to assume they'd take at least a full circle of 13, not underestimating someone with the reputation of a Forsaken like they did with Rand. That's going to be 13 of their most powerful and skilled, probably including Nynaeve and Elayne, since they have a penchant for being where the WT doesn't really want them to be based on their talents.

 

So, with the Hunt for Rahvin turning into a total fiasco (oh, they might kill him and die heroic and epic deaths, sure), ensured by adding a few Black Ajah to the mix, the LT is left without much of its leadership and with Nynaeve and Elayne dead as well.

 

Think about what that means.

 

1. The Healing of Gentling/Stilling is never rediscovered, leaving Siuan to figure out just what she's going to do with Moghedien. Probably a slit throat, disaster waiting to happen. Silver lining, right? Two dead Forsaken, but no rediscoveries.

2. Depending on whether Nynaeve took control of the Linking in the Hunt (unlikely), Rahvin will probably be dead by normal means. Both Rahvin and Moghedien are transmigrated.

 

So far, that's lesser impacts on the LT... unless you consider Siuan critical, which she is, later on. On that note..

3. Siuan never regains influence because she is not Healed, and is never given the opportunity to help guide (wasn't she behind Egwene getting Amyrlin?) the Little Amyrlin. Egwene is left with Black Ajah and less competent advisors, never achieving the height of power. If she is even chosen. That's questionable.

4. Bereft of core leadership and the revitalizing presence of Nyn/Elayne, the LT never regains the influence it needs to reunite the Tower.

5. Without competent leadership, the support of Bryne, if gained crumbles, leaving the LT with a starving army.

6. LT stripped of influence and the ability to negotiate with Rand, the BT emissaries never come, and Halima goes on an unchecked killing spree that removes all doubt of whether the BA control the LT.

7. The White Tower ultimately becomes damane to the Seanchan, the Little Tower falls apart, survivors returning to Elaida's little mercies.

 

Conclusion? LT isn't going to be "shredded" exactly the way Caemlyn was, torn to pieces in blasts of power and balefire. The death would be a slow and painful process, resulting in a shredded LT.

 

$0.02

[Suttree]

The reason the Reds could find the male channellers is because they went mad and started causing havoc. Apart from Thom's nephew, but I think he was found because Thom had a relationship with Aes Sedai, or at least was in their close proximity.

 

Not all of the men Reds bring in have gone mad already, not even by a long shot.

 

Week 6 Question: How do the Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah "find" men who can channel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: We're told throughout the books that the male channelers get goose bumps whenever the females are channeling or embracing the source. However, it is continuously mentioned that the women don't know if the male Asha'man and Rand are embracing or channeling saidin. So how does the Red Ajah and Cadsuane, find Male Channelers and then gentle them?

 

There are various ways that the effects of male channeling can be found, weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. Check in Crossroads of Twilight. They do not detect the actual weaves, though, only the residues left after the weave is released. After that, it becomes a matter of detective work. Though perhaps stalking a leopard might be a better metaphor. As for Cadsuane, she has a few more tools at her disposal than other Aes Sedai, the reason for her extremely high success rate. Check Winter's Heart, and a few earlier mentions, for this one.

[David Selig]

Knowing how to cut saidin weaves wasn't really necessary to defeat Rahvin. As I said like a dozen pages back, it would've been pretty simple for the Supergirls to disguise themselves, get near him and balefire him into oblivion. He wasn't prepared for an attack by female channellers. Plus, when both sides are ready to use balefire, against which weave cutting doesn't work, it's not decisive by any means.

 

And given the epic failure of the Forsaken at the Cleansing, it's completely implausible to me that Rahvin would've had any chance against a full circle of 13 including Elayne and Nynaeve. Going into hiding and attacking from the shadows is not something I see Rahvin doing either, he was no Moggy.

[Suttree]

Knowing how to cut saidin weaves wasn't really necessary to defeat Rahvin. As I said like a dozen pages back, it would've been pretty simple for the Supergirls to disguise themselves, get near him and balefire him into oblivion.

 

Exactly, Elayne has all the pretense needed to get close followed shortly by a sneak attack.

[MasterAblar]

Yes, she does. We've been telling you that for several pages.

 

And I've been telling you she doesn't. Rand has the ability, the WT definitely has the ability, but Elayne and the girls do not.

 

Read what I wrote again.

 

Ah, my mistake, you never said that they had demonstrated that they could cut a man's weaves, only that they could cut weaves.

 

You overstate the importance of cutting weaves. I'ts useful, but not the most important trick to have in a fight to the death. The object of the exercise is to kill Rahvin, or drive him from Caemlyn. You won't do that by cutting weaves unless you are so good at it he eventually gives up and goes somewhere else. Cutting weaves is a defensive measure and the girls would need to be on the offensive. Cutting weaves is only of secondary importance. Whether they know it or not doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. That said, they know how to cut weaves, they've just never done it on a man. Nor can they until there is a man chaneling at them.

 

Rand definitely found it useful against Lanfear. Cutting weaves is a defensive measure true, and it won't be necessary if they can kill him before he know they're there. But what happens if they fail to kill him in one blow, or if he notices them before they get a chance to kill him? Suddenly the ability to cut weaves is very important. Were it a same sex fight it wouldn't be as important as there are other ways to defend, but against Rahvin it will be just as necessay as it was for Rand against Lanfear, and he was moments away from dying before LTT showed him how to do it. Their survival in a fight against Rahvin depends on their ability to cut Rahvin's weaves. If they're going to need to cut a man's weaves, then they'd best know how to do it before they take on an opponent like Rahvin. Preferably in a situation where death is not the very likely alternative to success.

 

And Be'lal was there. He found Be'lal, and then attacked him. But whehter Rand knew Be'lal was in Tear in unimportant. It still puts Rand in the position of attacking, Be'lal as defending. It's just an unplanned attack.

 

That's the point, it wasn't planned. He didn't attack Bel'al on purpose, since he didn't know he was there. Until Rahvin, Rand never intentionally attacked a Forsaken unless he truly had no other option, or didn't have time to consider it as against Ishamael round 3, and Asmodean. He never attacked a Forsaken expecting his luck to bail him out.

 

Lanfear was the second strongest Chosen. It's pretty clear cut.

 

According to third agers. That's not what I call clear cut. Not when there are other detail in the books and a quote from the author which appear to suggest otherwise.

 

They weren't trying to kill her. That's quite different. And she did take them by surprise. So comparing people who are not prepared to face a Chosen with people who are prepared to face a Chosen, comparing the stronger Lanfear with the weaker Rahvin, and Avi, Egwene and Rand not trying to kill Lanfear with a hypothetical Elayne, Nynaeve and others trying to kill Rahvin and saying that as Lanfear had numerous advantages Rahvin doesn't, he would clearly win is ludicrous.

 

That's true they didn't try and kill Lanfear. She took them out before they ever got a chance to try. And she took them out face to face, with them having recovered from the surprise. Enough time passes between Lanfear revealing herself, and Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha confronting her for them to get over their surprise (Moiraine was obviously not surprised to begin with). That said the Aes Sedai confronting Rahvin would admitildly be better prepared to face him than Rand, Egwene and Aviendha were. But for all their preparation, Rahvin is still at an advantage in everything, perhaps most importantly in that it's on his turf, where he'll have set up wards. Also, we were speaking of run of the mill Aes Sedai confronting Rahvin, not Elayne or Nyneave. That said even they would not last all that long, unless they manage to cut his weaves on their first try, which is hardly something to bet your money on.

 

How quickly will he be killing them? One a dy? A week? A fortnight? The more active he is, the greater the chances of him getting caught. And again, this is all grossly out of character for him. He has lost his base of power. He won't stay put. He'll attempt to get Caemlyn back in a way his talents are more suited to. Diplomacy, subterfuge, compulsion. He's a politician, not an assassin. Retreat makes far more sense in terms of his character.

 

Once he starts killing them they'll start travelling in groups, which means he can take them out quicker, then they won't even dare leave the palace. Solution? Destroy the palace. It's radical, and a bunch of innocents will be harmed, but there is a certain advantage in having no morals and not giving a damn about anyone but himself. Where would he retreat to? There are no other nations to take over, and Andor is the most powerful. Rahvin is proud and thirsts for power. He doesn't need to stay in Caemlyn all the time, he can travel. Diplomacy won't work with Elayne. Compulsion on the other hand, I hadn't even thought of. Use it on an Aes Sedai, have her infiltrate the palace, and stab all her sisters in the back.

 

Yes, it does. It's just they need it less often because they've had a better training. And that better training makes them less reliant on luck than Rand ever was.

 

Rand never relied on luck. He just got lucky. Their training has not allowed them to learn some of the things that Rand has through LTT. And weaves have never come to the girls like they have to Rand. It was never a quesion of life or death when they did it instinctively. Nyneave didn't need to balefire the Fades, Egwene did not need to tie off her weave. It's happened very sporadically to them, whereas it happens all the time to Rand. And with Rand it's justified through LTT. If the girls started doing ridiculously advanced weaves right and left, on instinct alone, without any thoughts whatsoever as to how to do it, it simply would not be realistic.

 

As you can't do that, you never use them.

 

Which is why I said their use is limited when you can't seperate the rebels from the crowd. That said there won't always be a crowd to hide in for the rebels. And if they only strike when there is a crowd, they won't be able to do that much damage. After all Rand hardly keeps his armies in a city. A very small portion for security perhaps, but if the rebels start striking at his men, he'll just use Andor's men instead. The rebels might be less enthusiastic about killing their countrymen. And like I said just the knowledge that you're facing a male channeller can make you think twice before acting.

 

Any involvement by Rand is counterproductive. As I said: "The WT should be able to deal with the problem, and demonstrate that it can deal with the problem, even if only to its own. Involving Rand works against that." Any involvement by Rand indicates you cannot deal with your own problems, which is bad for morale, bad for your image. Unless you keep it secret from all the other AS. Demonstrating that the AS and DR can work together is useful. Demonstrating that the AS need the DR isn't.

 

Counterproductive to what? Not killing Mesaana surely. Pehaps to the WT's image. If Egwene chooses to worry about the WT's image instead of the lives of the Aes Sedai that will be facing Mesaana with her than she has issues. Involvement with Rand does not demonstrate that you cannot deal with it on your own, it demonstrates that you're willing to work with him, and that you're giving yourself a far better chance of winning. And like I said, if she's that worried about the WT's image, keep the knowledge that Rand is helping them away from all but those she trusts most, like Nyneave, Siuan, and Elayne.

 

Not all of the men Reds bring in have gone mad already, not even by a long shot.

 

Week 6 Question: How do the Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah "find" men who can channel?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: We're told throughout the books that the male channelers get goose bumps whenever the females are channeling or embracing the source. However, it is continuously mentioned that the women don't know if the male Asha'man and Rand are embracing or channeling saidin. So how does the Red Ajah and Cadsuane, find Male Channelers and then gentle them?

 

There are various ways that the effects of male channeling can be found, weaves that find the resonance of the residues of saidin. Check in Crossroads of Twilight. They do not detect the actual weaves, though, only the residues left after the weave is released. After that, it becomes a matter of detective work. Though perhaps stalking a leopard might be a better metaphor. As for Cadsuane, she has a few more tools at her disposal than other Aes Sedai, the reason for her extremely high success rate. Check Winter's Heart, and a few earlier mentions, for this one.

 

They're not always mad, but they always track them down by the residues from their weaves. That's how they're able to know that there is a male channeller in the area. After that it's throught the detective work that they manage to figure out precisely who the male channeller is. None of this is going to be effective against Rahvin, who can just go in and out of Caemlyn at will, can change his appearance at will, and who knows that he has Aes Sedai looking for him.

 

Knowing how to cut saidin weaves wasn't really necessary to defeat Rahvin. As I said like a dozen pages back, it would've been pretty simple for the Supergirls to disguise themselves, get near him and balefire him into oblivion. He wasn't prepared for an attack by female channellers. Plus, when both sides are ready to use balefire, against which weave cutting doesn't work, it's not decisive by any means.

 

And given the epic failure of the Forsaken at the Cleansing, it's completely implausible to me that Rahvin would've had any chance against a full circle of 13 including Elayne and Nynaeve. Going into hiding and attacking from the shadows is not something I see Rahvin doing either, he was no Moggy.

 

Rahvin had wards up by the end of tFoh, and the supergirls could not have attacked him before then. How could they get near him? Of course balefire is the great equalizer, even more when used like a knife in the back, but it's a forbidden weave for Aes Sedai, and more than that it's extremely dangerous. Would Elyane risk that in her own palace around people she knows?

 

There were mixed cirles at the cleansing and the only all-woman cirle was faced with a female channeller, Graendal. A circle of 13 would leave Rahvin with litte chance (although his chances get better if he stays out of sight, so that they can't shield him). As for going into hiding and attacking from the shadows, Caemlyn is not Far Madding. Rahvin hardly needs to stay in the city all the time. He can travel in and out at will. Rahvin is proud and thirsts for power. Andor is not something he would give up easely, no more than Sammael would give up Illian. I don't expect him to pass off as a servant like Moghedien did, but that's hardly the only way to kill off Aes Sedai. He doesn't care if innocents die. That opens up a few posibilities.