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Why Morridin Doesn't Want Rand Dead


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Morridin doesn't want Rand to die, because if he did, then like all other Heroes of the Horn, he would go to TAR and he would have access to all of his souls memories from all of his former lives.(Birgitte could remember all her past lives right?) If he doesn't die, he only gets LTT's memories and LTT failed to seal the bore(He could only patch it). But if he died, then he would remember how he did it the last time around, and just do that again. I think thats what the Finns meant by "To live you must Die."

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moridin doesnt want rand dead because he is unsure what effects it would have on himself, and moridin wants to facilitate the complete destruction of the world and he is the only one who truly wants to do so (other than the DO)

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I like your theory, Mane, it gives me some hope for Rand's future haha, but it would require someone to rip Rand out of TAR, and his memories would almost immediately start to fade anyway. Birgitte only remembers a few things, mostly related to Gaidal, and I don't think she chose what and what not to remember. So someone would have to talk to him before they ripped him out, which he would not necessarily survive, in which case his knowledge would probably be useless. I dunno. Maybe that's where all the foreshadowing (or maybe just random mumbo jumbo) about Nynaeve's desire to bring the dead back to life would come into play. Pure speculation here though, haha but it's a cool thought!

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That's why Moridin hired Slayer (one of many reasons). A primary role of Slayer is to assassinate in TAR so if Rand goes there, Slayer will be waiting unless Perrin gets rid of him

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First is that Rands will effects the Pattern, and thus, an evil Rand would be the best way to set the Dark One free. Thats why Moridinordered Graendal to cause Rand pain of heart; Dragon rage scrambles the Pattern, like in TGS. Moridin doesnt want him HARMED because of the link.

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Is everybody forgetting Veins of Gold?

 

Rand had his epiphany atop Dragonmount and incorporated all of his past personnae. He already knows everything every other Dragon incarnation knew.

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

 

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

 

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke reverently. Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

...

 

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. he remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

 

Slayer is supposed to be finding and killing Fain. It's likely the two queens of T'a'R, Lanfear and Moghedien, are currently trying to find and kill the Heroes of the Horn in T'a'R so that there won't be anybody left to answer if/when Mat blows the Horn again. Rand has already had Justice come into his possession. If the Horn got blown and Hawkwing responded, also carrying Justice that would provide a bit of a paradox since Justice is unique and can't be two places at once. This argues that Hawkwing's soul has already been found and destroyed, allowing Justice to be found in the waking world.

 

Moridin may not want Rand dead because of fear about how that would affect himself, or he may not want him dead because he can't be sure that the Dragon Soul could be found and defeated in T'a'R, thus making him unkillable when Mat blew the Horn again.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Is everybody forgetting Veins of Gold?

 

Rand had his epiphany atop Dragonmount and incorporated all of his past personnae. He already knows everything every other Dragon incarnation knew.

 

That was only for that moment in time. He doesn't remember every other life at this point, just his previous one with LTT. Else why say he can't seal the bore the way he did last time and ask Min to find the answer for him?

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Is everybody forgetting Veins of Gold?

 

Rand had his epiphany atop Dragonmount and incorporated all of his past personnae. He already knows everything every other Dragon incarnation knew.

 

That was only for that moment in time. He doesn't remember every other life at this point, just his previous one with LTT. Else why say he can't seal the bore the way he did last time and ask Min to find the answer for him?

 

If he was still fretting about what to do and how to do it we wouldn't have Mahatma Rand, we'd still have some form of Darth Rand.

 

To some extent the Wheel gives everybody, but most assuredly The Dragon, what he needs. That's most readily apparent in T'a'R, but we see it at work everywhere else as well.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Is everybody forgetting Veins of Gold?

 

Rand had his epiphany atop Dragonmount and incorporated all of his past personnae. He already knows everything every other Dragon incarnation knew.

 

That was only for that moment in time. He doesn't remember every other life at this point, just his previous one with LTT. Else why say he can't seal the bore the way he did last time and ask Min to find the answer for him?

 

If he was still fretting about what to do and how to do it we wouldn't have Mahatma Rand, we'd still have some form of Darth Rand.

 

To some extent the Wheel gives everybody, but most assuredly The Dragon, what he needs. That's most readily apparent in T'a'R, but we see it at work everywhere else as well.

 

My point is if he had all those memories he wouldn't need the help.

 

ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

He only remembers his last life as LTT.

Edited by Suttree
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ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

He only remembers his last life as LTT.

 

Have you ever seen a performance where a singer/songwriter forgets the lyrics to one of their own songs? It happens to lots of them, fairly frequently. That doesn't mean they don't really remember or that they didn't really write the song, it just means that they can't access that memory at that given instant.

 

Rand knows. He just has a HUGE memory dump to process, and Rome wasn't built in a day. When he truly needs that knowledge it will be there. The Wheel won't allow anything else.

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ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

He only remembers his last life as LTT.

 

Have you ever seen a performance where a singer/songwriter forgets the lyrics to one of their own songs? It happens to lots of them, fairly frequently. That doesn't mean they don't really remember or that they didn't really write the song, it just means that they can't access that memory at that given instant.

 

Rand knows. He just has a HUGE memory dump to process, and Rome wasn't built in a day. When he truly needs that knowledge it will be there. The Wheel won't allow anything else.

 

I would be able to except bits and pieces still being there. But the idea that it all is just waiting somewhere to float to the surface when needed is too far fetched for me. Much more likely the Wheel will guide Min to the answer. She has been set up for it studying Herid Fel's books and the like.

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ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

He only remembers his last life as LTT.

 

Have you ever seen a performance where a singer/songwriter forgets the lyrics to one of their own songs? It happens to lots of them, fairly frequently. That doesn't mean they don't really remember or that they didn't really write the song, it just means that they can't access that memory at that given instant.

 

Rand knows. He just has a HUGE memory dump to process, and Rome wasn't built in a day. When he truly needs that knowledge it will be there. The Wheel won't allow anything else.

 

I would be able to except bits and pieces still being there. But the idea that it all is just waiting somewhere to float to the surface when needed is too far fetched for me. Much more likely the Wheel will guide Min to the answer. She has been set up for it studying Herid Fel's books and the like.

 

I could go with that too. The main point being that whether Rand remembers it himself, or Min or anybody else comes up with it, because he has had all those memories, he will recognize it as being the correct answer when or however it comes to him.

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Is everybody forgetting Veins of Gold?

 

Rand had his epiphany atop Dragonmount and incorporated all of his past personnae. He already knows everything every other Dragon incarnation knew.

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

 

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

 

Maybe ... Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke reverently. Why? Could it be ... Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

...

 

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

 

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. he remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

 

Slayer is supposed to be finding and killing Fain. It's likely the two queens of T'a'R, Lanfear and Moghedien, are currently trying to find and kill the Heroes of the Horn in T'a'R so that there won't be anybody left to answer if/when Mat blows the Horn again. Rand has already had Justice come into his possession. If the Horn got blown and Hawkwing responded, also carrying Justice that would provide a bit of a paradox since Justice is unique and can't be two places at once. This argues that Hawkwing's soul has already been found and destroyed, allowing Justice to be found in the waking world.

 

Moridin may not want Rand dead because of fear about how that would affect himself, or he may not want him dead because he can't be sure that the Dragon Soul could be found and defeated in T'a'R, thus making him unkillable when Mat blew the Horn again.

 

Heroes of the Horn can't die in T'a'R.

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Heroes of the Horn can't die in T'a'R.

 

No, Heroes of the Horn cannot be harmed in the waking world because their souls are safely hidden away in T'a'R. But, if you're in T'a'R and somehow figure out where a given soul is hidden away, that soul can be destroyed if you have the means to do so. I'd reckon Lanfear and Moghedien possess the means. I don't believe either has been seen since Knife of Dreams. What could they be so occupied with that we haven't seen them for two books?

 

Besides, without Justice, what's Hawkwing going to do, Dope Slap Dreadlords into submission? This is A Memory of Light not The Three Stooges Meet Demandred.

 

All we really have to go by is Birgitte. Moghedien cast the physical manifestation of Birgitte out of T'a'R, and not only did she almost die as a result but one of her Silver Arrows came out with her. The Wondergirls were extremely frightened for her well being, and it was only Elayne bonding her that kept her alive.

 

Now, would she have simply returned to T'a'R if she'd died in the waking world? I'd guess not, or Moggy wouldn't have wasted the effort, since it would have accomplished nothing except to get Birgitte out of the vicinity temporarily. It also likely would have created a sufficiently implacable enemy that Birgitte would have made it her mission to track down and kill Moggy the next time she ventured into T'a'R. All-in-all a counter-productive move on Moggy's part unless it resulted in Birgitte's permanent death.

 

Lord knows the Forsaken have demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for stupidity, but that just seems a little too stupid a thing for Moggy to do. Ergo, casting the physical manifestation of any Hero of the Horn out of T'a'R results in their permanent death unless somebody with the proper skills is at hand to save them when they emerge.

 

Since the scholars found Justice, it could only have arrived in the waking world if it had been carried there by Hawkwing. Yet, the Horn of Valere has not been blown since Falme. My guess is that Hawkwing, like Sammael is toast.

 

Jordan and Sanderson have the last word however, so, all of the above is currently worth only what you paid for it.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Heroes of the Horn can't die in T'a'R.

 

No, Heroes of the Horn cannot be harmed in the waking world because their souls are safely hidden away in T'a'R. But, if you're in T'a'R and somehow figure out where a given soul is hidden away, that soul can be destroyed if you have the means to do so. I'd reckon Lanfear and Moghedien possess the means. I don't believe either has been seen since Knife of Dreams. What could they be so occupied with that we haven't seen them for two books?

 

Besides, without Justice, what's Hawkwing going to do, Dope Slap Dreadlords into submission? This is A Memory of Light not The Three Stooges Meet Demandred.

 

All we really have to go by is Birgitte. Moghedien cast the physical manifestation of Birgitte out of T'a'R, and not only did she almost die as a result but one of her Silver Arrows came out with her. The Wondergirls were extremely frightened for her well being, and it was only Elayne bonding her that kept her alive.

 

Now, would she have simply returned to T'a'R if she'd died in the waking world? I'd guess not, or Moggy wouldn't have wasted the effort, since it would have accomplished nothing except to get Birgitte out of the vicinity temporarily. It also likely would have created a sufficiently implacable enemy that Birgitte would have made it her mission to track down and kill Moggy the next time she ventured into T'a'R. All-in-all a counter-productive move on Moggy's part unless it resulted in Birgitte's permanent death.

 

Lord knows the Forsaken have demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for stupidity, but that just seems a little too stupid a thing for Moggy to do. Ergo, casting the physical manifestation of any Hero of the Horn out of T'a'R results in their permanent death unless somebody with the proper skills is at hand to save them when they emerge.

 

Since the scholars found Justice, it could only have arrived in the waking world if it had been carried there by Hawkwing. Yet, the Horn of Valere has not been blown since Falme. My guess is that Hawkwing, like Sammael is toast.

 

Jordan and Sanderson have the last word however, so, all of the above is currently worth only what you paid for it.

 

Justice only shows up in TAR because Hawkwing imagines himself possessing it. Scholars found the actual sword which was a remnant left from when the real live Hawkwing actually wielded it. It's not as if he took his physical possessions into TAR with him when he died. Ironically, the sword that Hawkwing has is actually only a copy of the real sword. However, since it was a copy made in TAR it is likely that it possesses all of the qualities of the original.

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Justice only shows up in TAR because Hawkwing imagines himself possessing it. Scholars found the actual sword which was a remnant left from when the real live Hawkwing actually wielded it. It's not as if he took his physical possessions into TAR with him when he died. Ironically, the sword that Hawkwing has is actually only a copy of the real sword. However, since it was a copy made in TAR it is likely that it possesses all of the qualities of the original.

 

Following your logic then Birgitte only has her Silver Bow and Arrows because she imagines having them in T'a'R. Yet, when Moggy cast her out, a very real Silver Arrow came with her, although her clothing and the Bow and Quiver did not.

 

Riddle me that, Batman.

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Heroes of the Horn can't die in T'a'R.

 

No, Heroes of the Horn cannot be harmed in the waking world because their souls are safely hidden away in T'a'R. But, if you're in T'a'R and somehow figure out where a given soul is hidden away, that soul can be destroyed if you have the means to do so. Reference? I'd reckon Lanfear and Moghedien possess the means. I don't believe either has been seen since Knife of Dreams. What could they be so occupied with that we haven't seen them for two books? Conjecture.

 

Besides, without Justice, what's Hawkwing going to do, Dope Slap Dreadlords into submission? This is A Memory of Light not The Three Stooges Meet Demandred.

 

All we really have to go by is Birgitte. Moghedien cast the physical manifestation of Birgitte out of T'a'R, and not only did she almost die as a result but one of her Silver Arrows came out with her. The Wondergirls were extremely frightened for her well being, and it was only Elayne bonding her that kept her alive.

 

Now, would she have simply returned to T'a'R if she'd died in the waking world? I'd guess not, or Moggy wouldn't have wasted the effort, since it would have accomplished nothing except to get Birgitte out of the vicinity temporarily. It also likely would have created a sufficiently implacable enemy that Birgitte would have made it her mission to track down and kill Moggy the next time she ventured into T'a'R. All-in-all a counter-productive move on Moggy's part unless it resulted in Birgitte's permanent death. Birgitte is a special case Moghedien didn't know it would kill her permanently.

 

Lord knows the Forsaken have demonstrated a remarkable aptitude for stupidity, but that just seems a little too stupid a thing for Moggy to do. Ergo, casting the physical manifestation of any Hero of the Horn out of T'a'R results in their permanent death unless somebody with the proper skills is at hand to save them when they emerge. Conjecture.

 

Since the scholars found Justice, it could only have arrived in the waking world if it had been carried there by Hawkwing. Yet, the Horn of Valere has not been blown since Falme. My guess is that Hawkwing, like Sammael is toast.Conjecture.

 

Jordan and Sanderson have the last word however, so, all of the above is currently worth only what you paid for it.

 

Well, then I'm glad I didn't pay for it.

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Heroes of the Horn can't die in T'a'R.

 

And

 

 

Birgitte is a special case Moghedien didn't know it would kill her permanently.

 

OK, I'll play. Provide a reference supporting your conjectures, and I'll do a little digging to support those parts of my post that I didn't clearly label as conjecture ( unless things like "I reckon" and "I'd guess" aren't clearly enough acknowledged conjecture for you? ).

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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  • 3 weeks later...

My theory that i have thought for a while is that Mordin doesn't or what I believe didn't want rand dead before VoG because the DO can only true win if rand is turned to the shadow. Why else would they keep him alive..? surely it would be easier for the shadow to just kill him and keep him away from the LB (like the world looks screwed without rand so y not just kill him). It has never been confirmed that rands soul has been turned to the shadow... the champion of the light has... who can be any hero that is bound to the horn... but it has never been stated directly that rands soul has turned to the shadow... Like if rand had turned to the shadow (gave in to his dark desire of destruction) at VoG... he would have destroyed the pattern.. and isn't that the DO ultimate goal/victory..?

 

Seriously can you think of any other logical reason to keep rand alive.. like yeah rand has caused dissension and chaos before VoG which the DO wants so it could be a reason to keep him alive but the dissension and chaos was caused by the DO influence on rand via the taint... but the taint was the DO way of turning rand to the shadow so the resultant chaos rand produced around him was a by-product of the battle the DO has been fighting for rands soul

 

From TEoTW the main battle has been for the rands soul more than anything... why go through all the effort of turning rand unless turning him is better for the DO to have rand than killing him???

 

well thats my theory tho i have said it before on other topics and people have disagreed wiv me :tongue:

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My theory that i have thought for a while is that Mordin doesn't or what I believe didn't want rand dead before VoG because the DO can only true win if rand is turned to the shadow. Why else would they keep him alive..? surely it would be easier for the shadow to just kill him and keep him away from the LB (like the world looks screwed without rand so y not just kill him). It has never been confirmed that rands soul has been turned to the shadow... the champion of the light has... who can be any hero that is bound to the horn... but it has never been stated directly that rands soul has turned to the shadow... Like if rand had turned to the shadow (gave in to his dark desire of destruction) at VoG... he would have destroyed the pattern.. and isn't that the DO ultimate goal/victory..?

 

Moridin didn't want him dead because primarily of the link. We see how upset he was about Rand just losing a hand and how that affected him. Also they didn't just kill him because there are degrees of victory. Per the game of Fisher killing him outright doesnt assure you victory and may not achieve the DO's goals.

 

As for Rand's soul we know it has been turned because...

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Looking at the statement RJ is saying Ishamael wasn't lying in this instance and in the book Ishy was referring specifically to Rand, not some generic "Hero of the Light".

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I think there are also different ways and degrees of turning Rand. Imo getting him to destroy the world with the CK would be a complete victory for the Dark One because the wheel would be broken. Demonstrably that hasn't happened in past turns.

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My theory that i have thought for a while is that Mordin doesn't or what I believe didn't want rand dead before VoG because the DO can only true win if rand is turned to the shadow. Why else would they keep him alive..? surely it would be easier for the shadow to just kill him and keep him away from the LB (like the world looks screwed without rand so y not just kill him). It has never been confirmed that rands soul has been turned to the shadow... the champion of the light has... who can be any hero that is bound to the horn... but it has never been stated directly that rands soul has turned to the shadow... Like if rand had turned to the shadow (gave in to his dark desire of destruction) at VoG... he would have destroyed the pattern.. and isn't that the DO ultimate goal/victory..?

 

Moridin didn't want him dead because primarily of the link. We see how upset he was about Rand just losing a hand and how that affected him. Also they didn't just kill him because there are degrees of victory. Per the game of Fisher killing him outright doesnt assure you victory and may not achieve the DO's goals.

 

As for Rand's soul we know it has been turned because...

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Looking at the statement RJ is saying Ishamael wasn't lying in this instance and in the book Ishy was referring specifically to Rand, not some generic "Hero of the Light".

 

Mordin didn't want rand dead before the link though and the quote u showed says the hero of the light aka the champion of the light not rand... look at the way RJ answers... there have been other souls who were hero of the light/champion of the light and all RJ says is that the hero of the light has turned... he didn't say rand had turned... ishy was telling the truth but using an aes sedai truth to torment/tempt rand... to serve his purpose... all ishy said was the hero of the light had turned... ishy didn't say rand or rands soul... and RJ has said that the hero/champion of the light has turned before in a quote below the my fist quote (but he didn't say rands soul... only the champion of the light) anyway heres some quotes:

 

..., yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator's champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion

 

Now this quote shows, from Lord of Chaos chapter 6, that the DO wants to turn Rand almost asmuch as the DO wants to escape... i'll talk about the later part of the quote ive bolded later but for now.. i'll talk about DO wanting rands turned... like another quote says that

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

now why would the DO want rand turned if it results in a draw...?? how cud the DO want this almost as much as being free.. which wud result in the wheel being broken..? what i conclude/think is that there CoTL (champions of the light) that turned were other hero's of the horn, not rand and rand was kept alive to turn him because he hasn't been turned before.. and only his turning can bring about the DO totally winning (or the DO being free) like if rand had turned at VoG.. the pattern wud have been destroyed.. and the DO wud have totally won so ishy wants rand alive in the beginging because he knew this and cos the DO wanted rand alive.. but i do agree that ishy wants rand alive/safe aswell now because of the link.. i forgot about that... only read the books through once see... but that doesn't explain keeping him alive before the link... IIRC didn't mordin SAVE rands life in the same chapter of CoS (pulled him up from falling or something) before the link was made..?? why save his life there for?? there was no link... there had to be another reason dofre the link to keep him alive

 

anyway... in the previous book quote its mentions the creator's champion... it doesn't say rand... and the creators champion can be other heros of the horn... and it can't be rand who ishy was on about because of this quote:

 

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

this is asking about the LoC quote (i think) and when the question specifically asks was ishy lying when he says RANDS soul has turned... RJ says ishy was lying but when asked if the hero/champion of the light has turned RJ says thats true ... meaning that the only way RJ doesn’t contradict himself is if there are other CoTL and that they have turned and out of the CoTL that have turned rand has never been one of the ones turned to the shadow.. remember RJ said that ishy was telling the truth about the hero/champion of the light in a fishy/ aes sedai way.. indicating RJ was saying ishy was telling the truth but only about the hero/champion of the light being turned.. which was what the question asked... not rand being turned.. and when it is asked DIRECTLY has rand soul/LLT soul turned using rands/LLT specific name.. RJ says no ishys lying about rands soul turning to the shadow...

 

^^ sorry a little bit of a tangent... but is still relates to the main topic as it shows (well evidence towards it anyway) that turning rands soul has never happened before and mordin keeping him alive (before and after the link) has its roots in either or in combination of ishy knowing that turning rand is one of the only way for the shadow to win and to turn him, rand must be alive and/or the DO telling ishy not to kill rand but to try and turn him as its one of the ways that allows the DO to totally win and destroy the pattern..

 

thats my theory anyhow... I hope it makes sense..

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....

 

No it makes sense, I have seen those arguments before and I used to think along similar terms. To me though I can't get past that quote I provided.

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Again the question refers to a specific incident in text where Ishamael was referring to Rand's soul, not some generic "Hero of the Light". RJ says in that instance Ishamael was not lying. To me it's pretty cut and dry.

 

In text if Ishamael had just said "we have turned the Creators Champion" or some such there would be an argument. Ishamael however was specifying Rand's soul and RJ said he wasn't lying.

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....

 

No it makes sense, I have seen those arguments before and I used to think along similar terms. To me though I can't get past that quote I provided.

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Again the question refers to a specific incident in text where Ishamael was referring to Rand's soul, not some generic "Hero of the Light". RJ says in that instance Ishamael was not lying. To me it's pretty cut and dry.

 

In text if Ishamael had just said "we have turned the Creators Champion" or some such there would be an argument. Ishamael however was specifying Rand's soul and RJ said he wasn't lying.

 

lol probally me making those arguments... i'm very pasionate about this theory and its on a few topics relating to the subject :tongue:

 

i see where ur coming from but... that quote doesn't prove anything because maybe the person who asked it intent was on a specific incident in the text but all RJ hears is the question askes "Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?"

 

RJ doesn't know its on about a specific incedent in the text.. all hes being asked is that was ishy telling the truth when the hero/champion of the light and in context of the question RJ says yes to the question which asks only if ishmeal was lying to rand about the hero of the light.. it doesn't ask "Was ishmeal lying when he said that Rand had turned to the shadow in other life times". also ... why didn't RJ say... "no, rands soul has turned to the shadow in other life times"?? he instead answered with a very vague answer which answers the question only... "Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes." RJ is screaming here.. in context of the actual question RJ was asked specifically that ishmael was telling an aes sedai truth at this instant that the original question refers to..

 

do u get what i mean.. i know ishy does say "you" to the Rand has been turned... but thats NOT the question being asked above...

 

like i wud have been conviced i was wrong if RJ answered that rands soul had turned.. or if the question said "Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that Rands's soul had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?" but all he says yes to is that the hero of the lights' soul has turned...

 

Anyway... this quote below contradict the above quote unless in the incident when ishmeal metions the hero/champion of the light has turned... he was on about other heros/champions of the light.. (this was what RJ said when it is actually asked if rands soul aka LLT soul has turned in the past)

 

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

RJ states that ishmael was lying when he said about LLT/Rands soul had turned but if u believe the first quote is on about rand then these two statments by RJ contradict.. and for them to not contradict... when ishmael was on about heros/champions of the light being turned.. rand can't have been one of the heros/champions of the light that had turned.. it was other people ishy was on about who had turned, not rand and ishy said about the hero/champion of the light knowing rand wud assume he was on about himself as rand wudn't know about other heros/champions of the light.. which meant ishy was telling the truth.. like RJ said.. but ishy knew rand wud thing ishy was on about him...

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No it makes sense, I have seen those arguments before and I used to think along similar terms. To me though I can't get past that quote I provided.

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Again the question refers to a specific incident in text where Ishamael was referring to Rand's soul, not some generic "Hero of the Light". RJ says in that instance Ishamael was not lying. To me it's pretty cut and dry.

 

In text if Ishamael had just said "we have turned the Creators Champion" or some such there would be an argument. Ishamael however was specifying Rand's soul and RJ said he wasn't lying.

 

Here is the incident in question:

Sammael had not come to talk about al’Thor, yet ice formed at the base of his spine. Thoughts he had forced himself to dismiss came oozing back. Al’Thor was not Lews Therin, but al’Thor was Lews Therin’s soul reborn, as Lews Therin himself had been the rebirth of that soul. Sammael was neither philosopher nor theologian, yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad, true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they surely would drive Lews Therin Telamon to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using human surrogates. More, he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been a little mad then, too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creator’s champion made a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadow’s champion.

 

The context suggests very strongly indeed that Ishy was talking about LTT (and therefore Rand) as the Creator's champion.

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