Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[Luckers]

The fact that Sammael was such a strong suspect is what weakens Graendal for me. Up until that point in the story, we were becoming rather familiar with Sammael.

 

In the story we have seen Sammael a total of 1 more times then Graendal at this point. When Moiraine detects his presense in Illian. After that all actions were a factor of the plan.

 

Sammael reveals his own ignorance as to what happened and he is known to be cautious as the come when it gets down to playing games with the other Forsaken.

 

Graendal on the other hand flat denies knowing anything about what happened other than what she was told by Demandred. In fact, she simply relays what she was told by Demandred to Sammael.

 

Actually Graendal states, with a lot of confidence, that Asmodean is dead, and in the method of her relation it is clear that it is from her, not Demandred. Comepletely clear.

 

 

 

He in fact has a better motive for both showing up in Caemlyn and for killing Asmodean that Graendal does. Yet still, people through some form of hindsight logic still feel that Graendal just pops up as naturally as anything else.

 

You think it more likely that Sammael, who was expecting an attack, would be skulking around in Caemlyn then Graendal, who was expecting Sammael to be attacked and was waiting with Rhavin to spring the trap.

 

That to me is incredible.

[Jonn]

The fact that Sammael was such a strong suspect is what weakens Graendal for me. Up until that point in the story, we were becoming rather familiar with Sammael.

 

In the story we have seen Sammael a total of 1 more times then Graendal at this point. When Moiraine detects his presense in Illian. After that all actions were a factor of the plan.

 

Sammael was a factor ever since book 3. Rand and Co. were affected by his moves from that point on. In fact most of Rand's plays were pushed along by Sammael's presence. Graendal we do not know much about until after book 4. I'd say that this is a rather significant gap of knowledge to consider. Maybe you do not.

 

Sammael reveals his own ignorance as to what happened and he is known to be cautious as the come when it gets down to playing games with the other Forsaken.

 

Graendal on the other hand flat denies knowing anything about what happened other than what she was told by Demandred. In fact, she simply relays what she was told by Demandred to Sammael.

 

Actually Graendal states, with a lot of confidence, that Asmodean is dead, and in the method of her relation it is clear that it is from her, not Demandred. Comepletely clear.

 

Lord of Chaos Ch. 6

 

“Have you learned where al’Thor is hiding Asmodean? Or anything of Lanfear’s whereabouts? Or Moghedien’s?â€

 

“You know as much as I do,†Graendal said blithely, pausing for a sip from her goblet. “Myself, I think Lews Therin killed them.â€

 

Chapter 23

“You think not? Not even if he learns where you all are?†That smile deepened. “I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?â€

Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way—he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting—unless . . . “Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too.â€

 

 

What’s clear about this? She states it with a lot of confidence? Notice she says that she's "sure" that Moghedien is dead, which turns out to be false of course.

 

Graendal can be confident of this because she can choose to. She was at the meeting with the others before her meet with Sammael. If the message comes straight from the Dark One, even via Demandred, it's pretty certain that Asmodean is dead. The only question is how and who. Semirhage wonders much the same to herself in the meantime in a POV, but she doesn't really doubt that Asmodean is dead. Had she been speaking to someone else, she would have probably related the same feelings, with the same surety that Asmodean had been eliminated somehow.

 

 

He in fact has a better motive for both showing up in Caemlyn and for killing Asmodean that Graendal does. Yet still, people through some form of hindsight logic still feel that Graendal just pops up as naturally as anything else.

 

You think it more likely that Sammael, who was expecting an attack, would be skulking around in Caemlyn then Graendal, who was expecting Sammael to be attacked and was waiting with Rhavin to spring the trap.

 

That to me is incredible.

 

Actually, you don’t know that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn. In fact, she probably wasn’t. Rahvin more than suggested that anyone skulking around his territory before he wanted them to would be…less than welcome. No, they weren’t supposed to assemble until the signal was given by Sammael that he was being attacked. That obviously never came, so it’s reaching to assume that anyone had even assembled before Rahvin was attacked.

 

Sammael was just as strong a suspect because he had shown a propensity for sniffing out where Rand was and then striking at him from a distance. He nearly killed him in Cairhien, so if there was a way for Sammael to detect if something went down in Caemlyn, it’s quite natural to think that Sammael would have just as much reason to travel there, reconnoiter, run into Asmodean, and kill him. Thus, he removes Rand’s teacher, and so Rand becomes a little easier in theory, to deal with.

 

Graendal on the other hand…We just don’t know enough about her at that point to guess, the way she makes moves, the way she reacts to things. So this makes her a weaker suspect. Incredible as that may seem to you, it’s founded in the text.

[Luckers]

"Myself, I think Lews Therin killed him".

 

Not from Demandred, and certain that he is dead.

 

Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way—he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting—unless . . . “Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too.â€

 

 

What’s clear about this? She states it with a lot of confidence? Notice she says that she's "sure" that Moghedien is dead, which turns out to be false of course.

 

She speaks of moghedian in the manner you do with something unverified. She speaks of Lanfear and Asmodean, on the other hand, in the definitive.

 

Actually, you don’t know that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn. In fact, she probably wasn’t. Rahvin more than suggested that anyone skulking around his territory before he wanted them to would be…less than welcome. No, they weren’t supposed to assemble until the signal was given by Sammael that he was being attacked. That obviously never came, so it’s reaching to assume that anyone had even assembled before Rahvin was attacked.

 

Thats pure unsubstantiated conjecture. All we know is that Rhavin and Graendal were waiting for an attack on Sammael, in which they would have to respond immediately and together for their plan to work. Since Rhavin was in Caemlyn i think it likely Graendal was somewhere nearby.

 

Sammael was never as strong as Graendal.

[Gentled Ben]

Robert, when I read it through, I had no idea what was about to happen, although my son turned me onto the books, so I knew someone who had read them, but he only told me that I would enjoy them. My gut instinct was that somehow, Lanfear came back and killed him. She had said that she would kill him, and he had been thinking about her just before it happened. Now, I tend to think that Graendal did it, mostly because the arguments I've seen for her doing it on this site, on Theoryland, and in the wotfaq are the strongest arguments, but in my gut, I still think it was Lanfear. :?

 

I figured that Moiraine was alive in some form or another because that's the formula; Obi Wan and Merlin return in a way, and Allanon and Gandalf come back in a way, too. The surprise, for me, was how long she lasted. I thought for sure that she was a goner in Shadar Logoth, you know? That's when Allanon and Gandalf would have checked out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks, Ben.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I've seen for her doing it on this site' date=' on Theoryland, and in the wotfaq are the strongest arguments, but in my [b']gut[/b], I still think it was Lanfear. :?

 

Lanfear is one person who I never suspected because she had the least motive af all. After all, she was the one who set up Asmo to become Rand's teacher in the first place. I don't remember her saying she would kill Asmo but even if she did say that I don't think she had a reason to do it at that time. She wanted Asmo to teach Rand so that he could become powerfull enough to take down the DO and then he could rule with her at this side (or she could rule with him at her side more like :) ). Rand had not learned nearly enough to accomplish that at that point. Besides, Lanfear had not yet been reincarnated so for the time being she was dead.

 

I figured that Moiraine was alive in some form or another because that's the formula; Obi Wan and Merlin return in a way, and Allanon and Gandalf come back in a way, too. The surprise, for me, was how long she lasted. I thought for sure that she was a goner in Shadar Logoth, you know? That's when Allanon and Gandalf would have checked out.

 

True but Gandalf and Obi Wan both died in part one of three. Moraine died in part five of twelve so its almost the same relative point in the story ;)

[Gentled Ben]

Lanfear is one person who I never suspected because she had the least motive af all. After all, she was the one who set up Asmo to become Rand's teacher in the first place.

If you recall, Asmo himself told Rand that Lanfear never intended for him to teach Rand everything, else she would have remained and linked them. She only wanted Rand to learn enough to be safe and not gentle himself.

Rand had not learned nearly enough to accomplish that at that point.

Rand never had a chance of out-channeling the DO, but that's a topic for a different thread. What Rand did become powerful enough to do was to withstand Lanfear's best shot, and that while she was using an angreal. A far cry from when she cut his flows in the Stone of Tear, don't you think? I bet she thought so. In fact, I bet she was madder than hell. Rand's performanmce in their little duel, even though he refused to take a kill shot at her, would be sufficient reason for her to want to remove the teacher she gave him.

Besides, Lanfear had not yet been reincarnated so for the time being she was dead.

When she's fighting at Shadar Logoth during the cleansing, she reflects that Alivia is stronger than she had been "before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her." That would indicate that she was in Finnland for awhile (else they could not have "held" her), and didn't die right away, just as Moiraine is not dead. Maybe she used a wish. :? Anyway, I said that intellectually, Graendal makes the most sense to me. This Lanfear idea is strictly an instinctual feeling. It's what came closest (and still does) to being "intuitively obvious." Graendal is intellectually obvious. Well, intellectually likely anyway.

 

I hadn't thought of Moiraine's death in terms of being an approximate third of the way through the story, but you have a point. :)

[Jonn]

"Myself, I think Lews Therin killed him".

 

Not from Demandred, and certain that he is dead.

 

Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way—he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting—unless . . . “Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too.â€

 

 

What’s clear about this? She states it with a lot of confidence? Notice she says that she's "sure" that Moghedien is dead, which turns out to be false of course.

 

She speaks of moghedian in the manner you do with something unverified. She speaks of Lanfear and Asmodean, on the other hand, in the definitive.

 

That's rather assuming isn't it? What's in those words? She was sure Moghedien was dead. She was pretty sure Asmodean and Lanfear were dead as well.

 

If she's sure that Lanfear is dead, then how is she so sure? Did she kill Lanfear as well? Obviously the answer is no because we know who killed Lanfear. She mentions Lanfear's death in the same breath as Asmodean's though. She's equally sure that those two are dead. She can't have killed both of them. The simplest answer is that she was told of both of their deaths by a reliable source. It's the only explanation that accounts for her knowing about Lanfear, and it works just as well to answer for her knowledge about Asmodean.

If she's just as sure about Lanfear's death as she is about Asmodean's, then it's safe to say that she learned about both of their demises the same way. She was told.

Moghedien, she believes is dead, because she was supposed to meet with her and Moghedien never showed up.

 

Actually, you don’t know that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn. In fact, she probably wasn’t. Rahvin more than suggested that anyone skulking around his territory before he wanted them to would be…less than welcome. No, they weren’t supposed to assemble until the signal was given by Sammael that he was being attacked. That obviously never came, so it’s reaching to assume that anyone had even assembled before Rahvin was attacked.

 

Thats pure unsubstantiated conjecture. All we know is that Rhavin and Graendal were waiting for an attack on Sammael, in which they would have to respond immediately and together for their plan to work. Since Rhavin was in Caemlyn i think it likely Graendal was somewhere nearby.

 

Sammael was never as strong as Graendal.

 

THAT is pure conjecture. The actual plan was that Lanfear, Rahvin and Graendal would assemble and link once Rand attacks Illian. Sammael was supposed to sit tight as bait. The others would get a signal and they would all go to Illian to confront Rand.

That signal never came, because Illian was never attacked, so there was no reason for anyone to assemble. It wasn't guaranteed that Rand would take the bait, nor was it guaranteed WHEN he would react. So Graendal just hanging out with Rahvin when everyone else was in their own territory does not make much sense. The absence of Lanfear would further stall any reaction to what Rand was doing in Caemlyn. In fact, the whole plot to lure Rand out failed because Mat foiled his assassin's attempt on his life. There was no way for anyone to know whether or not the attempt was even successful. How would Graendal or anyone know to go to Caemlyn in the first place? The trigger for the hwole thing was supposed to be the assasination, which in fact, failed. No trigger, so no gathering. Graendal would never know to even leave Arad Domon, unless she was already out, and where is the evidence of that? There is none.

 

Show me evidence that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn with or without Rahvin's blessing and then maybe you'll have an argument.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How art thou fallen, oh thread not meant to be an airing place for theories ....

 

Seriously, guys, lets leave this one as an airing ground for those who haven't contributed 10 or so pages to the infamous 118-pages-and-counting Whodunit thread.

 

I'd rather have this one die than become Who Killed Asmodean Wars part ad nauseam.

[Cybertrolloc]

Show me evidence that Graendal was waiting in Caemlyn with or without Rahvin's blessing and then maybe you'll have an argument.

Too funny, and haven't we dealt with Bob's argument enough lately?

 

What the Forsaken know:

- Moggy knows everything very quickly at the end of FoH (within 12 hours of Rand's decision to go to Caemlyn). She's been keeping an eye on the Forsaken plotters, but not Rand specifically, at least on camera.

- Lanfear had been busy with something else as yet unrevealed :roll:, presumably for at least two weeks (since she hadn't talked to Kadere since say when he killed whats-her-name and it's now a week after battle for Carhein).

- Moggy says that Rahvin suspects things are falling apart, not clear on when he decided to turtle up in Caemlyn.

 

LoC:

- About 20 days after Dem talks to DO, he reveals the master plan to Graen, Mes, Sem.

- Sometime later (probably after Rand meets Taim, which is a month since Asmo died) is the first on camera Sam/Gran chat (tough one since it's from angry Sam PoV and Gran is psyching him out--she's talking up the threat Rand represents to Sam). Same chapter is Sem's reverie (it's a Forsaken catchall chapter, time isn't really clear).

 

Try to base arguments on things that are in my books at least ;)

[Leopoled Boothe]

I hadn't thought of Moiraine's death in terms of being an approximate third of the way through the story' date=' but you have a point. :)[/quote']

 

That's very understandable considering that until recently we had know way of knowing that tFoH was approximatly 1/3 of the way through the story. In fact, at the time I thought that tFoH was much closer to the end than it turned out to be.

 

I must admit that you make some very good points about Lanfear have a motive for killing Asmo. None the less, she remains at the bottom of my suspect list. Whether she was dead of being held by the Finns she was in no position to be able to kill Asmo. Well not unless the pantry in Camleyn is a portal to Finnland but that would just be silly. I doubt she used a wish because she went into Finnland channeling which is forbidden, so given that she broke the agreement with the Finns I would think that they would be less than willing to honor their end of the deal and grant her any wishes. In fact I suspect it was her and Moirain's breaking of the deal which caused the Finns to hold them. At any rate, in figuring out who killed Asmo asigning a motive for killing him is not enough. It seems more likely that the culprit did not go to Camleyn with the intent of murdering Asmo, but rather that they killed him because he was unfortunate enough to discover them. I mean who could have known that Asmo would go looking for wine in that particular pantry at that particular time. It seems more likely that someone was in that pantry because they didn't want to be seen. Asmo saw them and therefore had to be eliminated. So what we must consider is who had a reason to the hiding out in the palace.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Far too much is being made of what Moggy knew, and how quickly she knew it.

 

That is her function. She is the Spymaster for the Dark. She learns the things that nobody else knows. Her influence and usefulness stem directly from the fact that she has methods and sources that are either unknown or unused by the rest of the Forsaken. She either knows or strongly suspects more about the internals ( and the inner reservations and counterplots ) of the Gang of Four's plan than any of the four do. Thematically she is the author's device for delivering key pieces of information to the other actors at significant points in the story. Which is exactly what Jordan has her do with Nynaeve. She is a primary information source for everyone, it seems.

 

Yes, her methods and sources had informed HER that Rand was going to attack Caemlyn. They hadn't informed anyone else. The only one she had the opportunity to tell about it was Nynaeve.

 

As cw rightly points out, nobody was waiting in Caemlyn with Rahvin. Rahvin wouldn't permit it.

 

So, none of the others were already there, and Moggy was the only one who knew what Rand intended to do. None of the others had Moggy's means or methods for learning about the attack, and, so, couldn't have learned about it until after it was over and the dust had settled.

 

That is the important point that Jordan is explicitly emphasizing in the Prologue to LOC.

 

1. Moggy was the only Forsaken who knew where Rand was striking.

2. Moggy did not meet with any of the other Forsaken and pass that knowledge along.

[cannon]

How art thou fallen, oh thread not meant to be an airing place for theories....

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

In an attempt to bring the thread back onto topic, I'll relate my own "first read-through" story:

 

When I began reading this series, Path of Daggers had just come out, so I read all 8 of them fairly quickly and started the next almost as soon as I finished. As such, I didn't really have much of an opinion at the time of who killed Asmodean, because I assumed (like most people I think) that I would be told in the next book.

 

I thought at the time that it might have been Lanfear (mostly because he was thinking about her, and I never for a minute thought either of them had died). However, once Lord of Chaos started and she didn't show up, I started to wonder...

 

And then it hit me... Taim. Bashere mentions he's in the area, and he appears at the beginning of LoC, right after Asmo is killed. (I know this isn't quite true, that it's actually like 37 days later, and it only appears that way upon reading the books one after another.)

 

So for a while Taim was my primary suspect, especially when I was sure he was Demandred. Once that theory went out the window though, I gave up on suspecting him, and went back to Lanfear.

 

Taim would make sense though from the perspective that he could have been hiding in the pantry and discovered unexpectedly by Asmo. We knew he was in the area. Maybe he just "laid low" for a month so no one would suspect him? Of course, that only works if Taim somehow knew Asmo, probably because he's a minion of the Dark, Ishmael probably.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As such, I didn't really have much of an opinion at the time of who killed Asmodean, because I assumed (like most people I think) that I would be told in the next book.

 

Thats a good point, one I hadn't thought of ... my brother only expressed a theory since I asked him about it, I suppose most people, unless asked, would simply assume they'd find out later ...

[Jonn]

As such, I didn't really have much of an opinion at the time of who killed Asmodean, because I assumed (like most people I think) that I would be told in the next book.

 

Thats a good point, one I hadn't thought of ... my brother only expressed a theory since I asked him about it, I suppose most people, unless asked, would simply assume they'd find out later ...

 

That's pretty much what I thought at the time because there simply wasn't enough information to be sure either way.

 

Most people I've talked to about it offline have said much the same. If pressed, sure they have their theories on first read, but there was no way to verify from just that book or even leading up to that scene.

 

Too funny, and haven't we dealt with Bob's argument enough lately?

 

What the Forsaken know:

- Moggy knows everything very quickly at the end of FoH (within 12 hours of Rand's decision to go to Caemlyn). She's been keeping an eye on the Forsaken plotters, but not Rand specifically, at least on camera.

- Lanfear had been busy with something else as yet unrevealed , presumably for at least two weeks (since she hadn't talked to Kadere since say when he killed whats-her-name and it's now a week after battle for Carhein).

- Moggy says that Rahvin suspects things are falling apart, not clear on when he decided to turtle up in Caemlyn.

 

LoC:

- About 20 days after Dem talks to DO, he reveals the master plan to Graen, Mes, Sem.

- Sometime later (probably after Rand meets Taim, which is a month since Asmo died) is the first on camera Sam/Gran chat (tough one since it's from angry Sam PoV and Gran is psyching him out--she's talking up the threat Rand represents to Sam). Same chapter is Sem's reverie (it's a Forsaken catchall chapter, time isn't really clear).

 

Try to base arguments on things that are in my books at least

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't sure whether this was supposed to be counter to my argument or not. The timeline you present here actually works in favor of my explanation.

 

As for going "off topic". This is essentially an Asmodean thread, and it's veered off into what people thought when they first read the Asmodean scenario.

 

If we're saying that it's forbidden to argue how difficult it is to single out Graendal as the killer from first read, then you really don't have a topic now do you? You have an, "I agree, it was Graendal after all." thread.

 

I was simply illustrating how hard it is to make the connections to zero in exclusively on Graendal, when the actual death scene in the book gives such limited evidence.

[Gentled Ben]

Leopold wrote:

It seems more likely that the culprit did not go to Camleyn with the intent of murdering Asmo, but rather that they killed him because he was unfortunate enough to discover them. I mean who could have known that Asmo would go looking for wine in that particular pantry at that particular time. It seems more likely that someone was in that pantry because they didn't want to be seen. Asmo saw them and therefore had to be eliminated. So what we must consider is who had a reason to the hiding out in the palace.

 

Yeah, that's part of why Graendal makes sense to me. She rummaged through Sammael's stuff in Illian after his defeat, after all. I could easily see her scampering through the Camelyn palace after Rahvin's crispy exit and dropping Asmo like a rock when they ran into each other.

 

How art thou fallen, oh thread not meant to be an airing place for theories ....

 

I hear you and feel your pain, Robert, but you knew this was a hot button when you pressed it and that we're often like a bunch of monkees. What did you expect after giving a bunch of monkees a button to press? :P

[Jonn]

Leopold wrote:

It seems more likely that the culprit did not go to Camleyn with the intent of murdering Asmo, but rather that they killed him because he was unfortunate enough to discover them. I mean who could have known that Asmo would go looking for wine in that particular pantry at that particular time. It seems more likely that someone was in that pantry because they didn't want to be seen. Asmo saw them and therefore had to be eliminated. So what we must consider is who had a reason to the hiding out in the palace.

 

Yeah, that's part of why Graendal makes sense to me. She rummaged through Sammael's stuff in Illian after his defeat, after all. I could easily see her scampering through the Camelyn palace after Rahvin's crispy exit and dropping Asmo like a rock when they ran into each other.

 

Her going through Sammael's stuff happened much later, and she was sure she could find something because Sammael himself suggested that he found things of interest.

 

Rahvin on the other hand never gave that impression, so what was she doing scampering around Caemlyn HOURS after the battle was over? This is never explained, you know why? It never happened. She didn't go to Camelyn after the battle. She didn't wander around in enemy territory for hours after the battle, looking for...I don't know what she'd be looking for there. It didn't happen because it's never in the books and she never mentions it nor does she think about it later. Something of that import, the killing of the traitor right under the Dragon's nose, isn't the kind of thing to be flippant about.

 

She ran into Asmodean by chance while she was skulking about, looking for nothing, in enemy territory, hours after the battle? Aaaand, she never mentions it to anyone, not even herself.

 

How can you come up with that as an answer?

 

How art thou fallen, oh thread not meant to be an airing place for theories ....

 

I hear you and feel your pain, Robert, but you knew this was a hot button when you pressed it and that we're often like a bunch of monkees. What did you expect after giving a bunch of monkees a button to press? :P

 

Don't be crass, either of you guys. Robert tried to present a case that someone came up with Graendal off the first read. The internet is literally the only place I've ever heard that this has happened. Thing is, in my experience, people don't come up with any definitive answer from that passage off the first read. There's not enough there.

Frankly, I can't call it reliable when the source is directly related to someone who is vehemently behind the Granedal theory. It's pretty much hearsay anyways.

No, Robert, I'm not calling you a liar. I just think your example is rather questionable. Thing is we can't know that you weren't an influence on your brother's initial conclusion. Then again, it's always a hard sell when you present an argument based of someone else's opinion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thing is we can't know that you weren't an influence on your brother's initial conclusion. Then again, it's always a hard sell when you present an argument based of someone else's opinion.

 

That particular point is quite true. Thats why I wanted to see if there was a way to get a variety of "unsullied" opinions and see what they looked like.

 

Did I take some satisfaction in the fact that my brother's initial thoughts agreed with mine? Sure. Thats why the title of the thred has the addendum "Success". I admit to being biased in this case, and while I did not consciously try to influence him, it is possible that my brother was influenced by some comment or other I made not thinking.

 

Thats why I wanted to gather others' experiences and ideas.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given that tFoH came out like 12 years ago, and people have been wrangling about Asmo ever since...

 

I honestly believe it's now impossible for any of us to accurately remember what we first thought. My instictive take is that Jonn comes closest for me.

 

"OK. That's weird. I hope the next book comes out soon so I can find out who killed him.", probably comes awfully close to what I first thought at the time.

[Graendals favourite]

I concur, at least on general grounds. I can't for the sake of Light remember what I thought back then. I remember thinking something like, "Mother's milk in a cup, I liked him, now he died anyway." If I thought of someone as the guilty one, I can't remember. I remember thinking that no one's safe. I only started really thinking about it when I heard on the internet that there was a mystery. Can't resist a puzzle.

[Gentled Ben]

Jonn, take a deep breath. It's just a story, and Asmodean's just a dead character in it. It's okay to be flippant about fiction, for crying out loud, and it's Robert's thread; he can be crass if he wants. :) For my part, I apologize; it was an unnecessary comment, but not one that was meant to offend. Still, I retract the monkey remark.

 

Graendal is a good choice because she seems to know that Asmo's dead, and just because Rahvin didn't run around bragging about a stash doesn't mean he didn't have one! Graendal found a stasis box all by herself (that's where that streith gown came from) long before she looted Sammael, and for all we know, she found it in Rahvin's hall closet.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The point I keep trying to make is that in order to make it any of the Forsaken, a powerful lot of invention is required.

 

First you need to invent a way for somebody other than Moggy to learn about the planned attack on Rahvin. Lanfear didn't even know that, and she was on the docks in Cairhein, in the midst of the assembled strike force, going postal just before the attack was supposed to kick off.

 

Then you need to invent a reason for whichever Forsaken you chose to venture into Caemlyn - alone - when the whole reason for the Gang of Four to hatch their plan in the first place was that ALL of them who had tried to take Rand on alone had died in the process. Heck, any of them who had come within a mile or three of him had died. So, exactly why was it that any of them would chance dying? What was there in Caemlyn that made taking such a risk worthwhile? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

 

Then you need to place your Forsaken either behind that particular door by pure chance, or somewhere that Asmo could be observed and then psychically anticipate where he was going and get there first to ambush him. Now, you not only have Superman/woman in Kryptonite-proof underwear ( "Rand al'Thor can't harm ME!" ), but he/she is psychic yet too.

 

Graendal just doesn't work. Sammael just doesn't work. And, they're the only two whom we've met who are not dead ( at least temporarily ) or otherwise unavailable.

...Sammael's way had always been armies and conquest; he would not go near Lews Therein, even reborn as a shepherd, until he was sure of victory. Graendal, too, followed conquest, though her methods did not involve soldiers, for all her concern with her toys, she took one solid step at a time. Openly to be sure, as the Chosen reckoned such things, but never stretching too far at any step

 

And, no. None of them was sitting by the fireside with Rahvin, sipping tea and patiently waiting for Rand to attack Sam. They aren't the patient type. They don't like each other well enough to tolerate prolonged contact. They don't trust each other even a tiny bit. Rahvin had already specifically told them that he'd personally kill the next one of them who came to Caemlyn without his express permission.

[Luckers]

The point I keep trying to make is that in order to make it any of the Forsaken, a powerful lot of invention is required.

 

We're aware of what you think. Never think we arn't.

 

First you need to invent a way for somebody other than Moggy to learn about the planned attack on Rahvin. Lanfear didn't even know that, and she was on the docks in Cairhein, in the midst of the assembled strike force, going postal just before the attack was supposed to kick off.

 

Why would the Forsaken need to be there to deal with the attack on Rhavin? I don't think that was even suggested. Graendal was there as a part of the planned response to the attack on Sammael, and took advantage of the situation whilst hiding out in order to avoid the sudden and unexpected assault on Rhavin.

 

Then you need to invent a reason for whichever Forsaken you chose to venture into Caemlyn - alone - when the whole reason for the Gang of Four to hatch their plan in the first place was that ALL of them who had tried to take Rand on alone had died in the process

 

Dude... why would'nt they? They had no reason to expect Rand to attack Rhavin... indeed, Graendal had every reason to think he would be striking at Illian, not Caemlyn... im sorry, but this is not even an issue.

 

Then you need to place your Forsaken either behind that particular door by pure chance, or somewhere that Asmo could be observed and then psychically anticipate where he was going and get there first to ambush him.

 

Which is precisely what i think did happen. Asmo came accross Graendal why she was hiding from Rand, and she killed him. Indeed, the fact that Asmodean walked himself there without telling anyone suggests that no matter who did it, it was a crime of chance, not planning.

 

You seem to think that it being a Forsaken requires it being a planned attack on Asmo... why?

 

And, no. None of them was sitting by the fireside with Rahvin, sipping tea and patiently waiting for Rand to attack Sam. They aren't the patient type. They don't like each other well enough to tolerate prolonged contact. They don't trust each other even a tiny bit. Rahvin had already specifically told them that he'd personally kill the next one of them who came to Caemlyn without his express permission.

 

Ah. Well, there ya go. Absolute proof. Thanks Bob, for clearing that up. Please!

[Kaznen]

 

Yeah, that's part of why Graendal makes sense to me. She rummaged through Sammael's stuff in Illian after his defeat, after all. I could easily see her scampering through the Camelyn palace after Rahvin's crispy exit and dropping Asmo like a rock when they ran into each other.

 

Her going through Sammael's stuff happened much later, and she was sure she could find something because Sammael himself suggested that he found things of interest.

 

 

She rummaged through Sammael's stuff becuase she was looking to make sure there was mo evidence to point anyone at her. The Angreal and other stuff was a bonus. Her reason for being in Caemlyn would be the same, make sure there is no evidence to point to her being a part of any plan.

 

So she hides in a pantry and waits to make her move and here comes her old "friend" Asmodean.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, Kaznen. She had specific information that Sam had a bunch of *angreal. She didn't know exactly what he had, but she did know that he'd gotten the stuff from Ebou Dar that the Wonder Girls didn't. That's why she was there. He was the only one among them who had managed to recover any. They were all jealous of his stash.