Aes Sedai Bonded!

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Narishma told the Aes Sedai that saidin is clean though. And Merise confirmed it. So there wouldn't be any worries about the Ashaman going mad.

[Suttree]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Narishma told the Aes Sedai that saidin is clean though. And Merise confirmed it. So there wouldn't be any worries about the Ashaman going mad.

 

Which came far later than tPoD which was when the actual bonding was done. As many have said those types of things don't change over night. Three thousand years of thinking takes a long time to change, and as far as they all know it would be the largest miracle in their world for it to actually happen. Even Merise says she isn't sure because Saidin is so unfamiliar. Himiko above had the most reasonable take. Both sides play a role, you have to be seriously biased to not acknowledge that.

[Xcorpyo001]

If I remember correctly, Nyneave was not pleased at all that Logain and his men had bonded Aes Sedai. And it's pretty clear that it had nothing to do with them being bonded unwillingly, though she probably wasn't happy about that either. And this was after the Cleansing, so it's pretty clear that she simply believed it is for women to bond men and not the other way around.

 

Overall I'm guesssing most Aes Sedai were not happy because it was done against the Aes Sedai's will and because it was done by men.

 

 

Yep, something like that.

 

When he fell silent, no one spoke until Escaralde finally said, very quietly. "We will remember him, Jahar. But how did fifty-one

sisters come to be . . . bonded to Asha'man?" She leaned forward as if his answer would be pitched as low.

The boy shrugged, still angry. It was of no matter to him. Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai. "Elaida sent them to destroy us. The Dragon

Reborn has a standing order that no Aes Sedai can be harmed unless she tries to harm one of us first, so Taim decided to capture and

bond them before they had the chance."

So. They were Elaida's supporters. Should that make a difference? Somehow it did, a little. But any sisters held by Asha'man brought

it all back to a matter of equality, and that was intolerable.

 

Equality between Ashaman and AS is intolerable, even after the cleansing of the taint.

 

"And why was an Asha'man in the camp?" Egwene asked coolly.

"He'd been sent as an envoy," Siuan explained. "From the Dragon Reborn. Mother, it appears some of the men who follow

al'Thor have bonded Aes Sedai."

Egwene blinked a single time. "Yes. I had heard rumors of this. I had hoped that they were exaggerated. Did this Asha'man say

who gave Rand permission to commit such an atrocity?"

"He's the Dragon Reborn," Siuan said, grimacing. "I don't think he feels he needs permission. But, in his defense, it appears he

didn't know it was happening. The women his men bonded were sent by Elaida to destroy the Black Tower."

"Yes." Egwene finally showed a sliver of emotion. "So the rumors are accurate. All too accurate." Her beautiful dress retained its

shape, but bled to a deep brown in color, like Aiel clothing. Egwene didn't seem to notice the change. "Will Elaida's reign of

disasters never cease?"

Siuan just shook her head. "We've been offered forty-seven Asha'man to bond as restitution, of sorts, for the women al'Thor's

men bonded. Hardly a fair trade, but the Hall decided to accept the offer nonetheless."

"As well they should have," Egwene said. "We shall have to deal with the Dragon's foolishness at a later date. Perhaps his men

acted without his direct orders, but Rand must take responsibility. Men. Bonding women!"

"They claim saidin is cleansed," Siuan said.

Egwene raised an eyebrow, but did not object. "Yes," she said, "I suppose that might be a reasonable possibility. We will need

further confirmation, of course. But the taint arrived when all seemed won; why should it not leave when all seems to be

approaching pure madness?"

 

 

 

Egwene set aside the nutcracker. "Rand al'Thor is a good man, in his heart, but he needs guidance. These days are when we

should have been at our most subtle. He should have been led to trust Aes Sedai above all others, to rely on our counsel. He

should have been shown the wisdom in listening. Instead, he has been shown that we will treat him like an unruly child. If he is

one, he cannot be allowed to think we regard him in such a way. Because of our bungling, he has taken some Aes Sedai

captive, and has allowed still others to be bonded to those Asha'man of his."

Ferane sat up stiffly. "Best not to mention that atrocity."

 

 

“Well,” the Amyrlin said, “I am very glad for this longer explanation, Nynaeve. Though saidin being

cleansed does make it less unsettling to consider Asha’man and Aes Sedai bonding one another. I wish

Rand had been willing to speak to me of that during our meeting.” She said it evenly, though Siuan knew

she looked on men bonding women with as much pleasure as a captain looked on a fire in his hold.

“I suppose,” Nynaeve said, lips turning down. “If it matters, Rand didn’t approve the men bonding

women.”

“It doesn’t matter if he did or not,” Egwene said. “The Asha’man are his responsibility.”

“As the Aes Sedai who chained him and beat him are yours, Mother?” Nynaeve asked.

 

Even after Nyn explains the situation with the cleansing again, she still hates the bonding, as stated in Siuan's POV.

 

We may need these men, but we must be certain we are in control. Complete control.”

 

Egwene nodded. A small nod. She agreed, but . . . “There might be difficulties bringing them to accept that,” she said. Difficulties. She was displaying a positive talent for understatement today.

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly. She had learned that weave from Moghedien, but only to work on how to counter it. The thing was filth, the theft of another person’s will, of their whole being. Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered. Anything. And believed it was their own choice. Just thinking about it made her feel dirty.

 

Maigan met her gaze almost as levelly as Lelaine had, though, and her voice was as smooth as her face. She had no thoughts of filth. “Compulsion was used on sisters in Cairhien. That seems certain, now. But I was talking about the bond, a different thing entirely.”

 

“You think you can talk the Asha’man into accepting the bond?” Egwene could not keep the incredulity out of her voice. “Aside from that, who is going to do this bonding? Even if every sister who doesn’t have a Warder took an Asha’man, and every Green took two or three, there aren’t enough sisters. That’s if you can find one who doesn’t mind being bonded to a man who is going to go mad.”

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

Abruptly, Egwene realized what was happening. Lelaine sat apparently peering into her teacup, but she was studying Egwene through her eyelashes. And using Maigan as a stalking horse. Smothering anger, Egwene did not have to make her voice cold. It was ice.

 

“That sounds exactly like Compulsion, Lelaine. It is Compulsion, and no twisting of words will make it anything else. I will point that out to anyone else who suggests this. And I will order the birch for anyone who does more than suggest. Compulsion is banned, and it will remain banned.”

 

“As you say,” Lelaine replied, which might have meant anything at all. What came next was more pointed. “The White Tower makes mistakes upon occasion. It is impossible to live or move without making mistakes. But we live, and we go on. And if we sometimes need to conceal our mistakes, whenever possible, we rectify them. Even when it is painful.”

 

 

Even Egwene agrees with the fact that the AS must bond as many Ashaman, the Greens even several each, but the rest of the AS, especially the ones with power of decision, seem to be OK with using even Compulsion to control them.

And birching is not such a big penalty for using such a wave against an Asha'man.

[damandred]

Don't no what the AS are crying about, Elaida sent those AS to kill all the Asha'man they should be counting themselves lucky and Egwene should be praising Asha'man restraint.

[XXX]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Considering that Egwene(and Siuan etc) kept to her sexist opinion after they knew saiden was clean..it kind of blows your they are scared of going mad theory to smithereens.

[XXX]

If I remember correctly, Nyneave was not pleased at all that Logain and his men had bonded Aes Sedai. And it's pretty clear that it had nothing to do with them being bonded unwillingly, though she probably wasn't happy about that either. And this was after the Cleansing, so it's pretty clear that she simply believed it is for women to bond men and not the other way around.

 

Overall I'm guesssing most Aes Sedai were not happy because it was done against the Aes Sedai's will and because it was done by men.

 

 

Yep, something like that.

 

When he fell silent, no one spoke until Escaralde finally said, very quietly. "We will remember him, Jahar. But how did fifty-one

sisters come to be . . . bonded to Asha'man?" She leaned forward as if his answer would be pitched as low.

The boy shrugged, still angry. It was of no matter to him. Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai. "Elaida sent them to destroy us. The Dragon

Reborn has a standing order that no Aes Sedai can be harmed unless she tries to harm one of us first, so Taim decided to capture and

bond them before they had the chance."

So. They were Elaida's supporters. Should that make a difference? Somehow it did, a little. But any sisters held by Asha'man brought

it all back to a matter of equality, and that was intolerable.

 

Equality between Ashaman and AS is intolerable, even after the cleansing of the taint.

 

"And why was an Asha'man in the camp?" Egwene asked coolly.

"He'd been sent as an envoy," Siuan explained. "From the Dragon Reborn. Mother, it appears some of the men who follow

al'Thor have bonded Aes Sedai."

Egwene blinked a single time. "Yes. I had heard rumors of this. I had hoped that they were exaggerated. Did this Asha'man say

who gave Rand permission to commit such an atrocity?"

"He's the Dragon Reborn," Siuan said, grimacing. "I don't think he feels he needs permission. But, in his defense, it appears he

didn't know it was happening. The women his men bonded were sent by Elaida to destroy the Black Tower."

"Yes." Egwene finally showed a sliver of emotion. "So the rumors are accurate. All too accurate." Her beautiful dress retained its

shape, but bled to a deep brown in color, like Aiel clothing. Egwene didn't seem to notice the change. "Will Elaida's reign of

disasters never cease?"

Siuan just shook her head. "We've been offered forty-seven Asha'man to bond as restitution, of sorts, for the women al'Thor's

men bonded. Hardly a fair trade, but the Hall decided to accept the offer nonetheless."

"As well they should have," Egwene said. "We shall have to deal with the Dragon's foolishness at a later date. Perhaps his men

acted without his direct orders, but Rand must take responsibility. Men. Bonding women!"

"They claim saidin is cleansed," Siuan said.

Egwene raised an eyebrow, but did not object. "Yes," she said, "I suppose that might be a reasonable possibility. We will need

further confirmation, of course. But the taint arrived when all seemed won; why should it not leave when all seems to be

approaching pure madness?"

 

 

 

Egwene set aside the nutcracker. "Rand al'Thor is a good man, in his heart, but he needs guidance. These days are when we

should have been at our most subtle. He should have been led to trust Aes Sedai above all others, to rely on our counsel. He

should have been shown the wisdom in listening. Instead, he has been shown that we will treat him like an unruly child. If he is

one, he cannot be allowed to think we regard him in such a way. Because of our bungling, he has taken some Aes Sedai

captive, and has allowed still others to be bonded to those Asha'man of his."

Ferane sat up stiffly. "Best not to mention that atrocity."

 

 

“Well,” the Amyrlin said, “I am very glad for this longer explanation, Nynaeve. Though saidin being

cleansed does make it less unsettling to consider Asha’man and Aes Sedai bonding one another. I wish

Rand had been willing to speak to me of that during our meeting.” She said it evenly, though Siuan knew

she looked on men bonding women with as much pleasure as a captain looked on a fire in his hold.

“I suppose,” Nynaeve said, lips turning down. “If it matters, Rand didn’t approve the men bonding

women.”

“It doesn’t matter if he did or not,” Egwene said. “The Asha’man are his responsibility.”

“As the Aes Sedai who chained him and beat him are yours, Mother?” Nynaeve asked.

 

Even after Nyn explains the situation with the cleansing again, she still hates the bonding, as stated in Siuan's POV.

 

We may need these men, but we must be certain we are in control. Complete control.”

 

Egwene nodded. A small nod. She agreed, but . . . “There might be difficulties bringing them to accept that,” she said. Difficulties. She was displaying a positive talent for understatement today.

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly. She had learned that weave from Moghedien, but only to work on how to counter it. The thing was filth, the theft of another person’s will, of their whole being. Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered. Anything. And believed it was their own choice. Just thinking about it made her feel dirty.

 

Maigan met her gaze almost as levelly as Lelaine had, though, and her voice was as smooth as her face. She had no thoughts of filth. “Compulsion was used on sisters in Cairhien. That seems certain, now. But I was talking about the bond, a different thing entirely.”

 

“You think you can talk the Asha’man into accepting the bond?” Egwene could not keep the incredulity out of her voice. “Aside from that, who is going to do this bonding? Even if every sister who doesn’t have a Warder took an Asha’man, and every Green took two or three, there aren’t enough sisters. That’s if you can find one who doesn’t mind being bonded to a man who is going to go mad.”

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

Abruptly, Egwene realized what was happening. Lelaine sat apparently peering into her teacup, but she was studying Egwene through her eyelashes. And using Maigan as a stalking horse. Smothering anger, Egwene did not have to make her voice cold. It was ice.

 

“That sounds exactly like Compulsion, Lelaine. It is Compulsion, and no twisting of words will make it anything else. I will point that out to anyone else who suggests this. And I will order the birch for anyone who does more than suggest. Compulsion is banned, and it will remain banned.”

 

“As you say,” Lelaine replied, which might have meant anything at all. What came next was more pointed. “The White Tower makes mistakes upon occasion. It is impossible to live or move without making mistakes. But we live, and we go on. And if we sometimes need to conceal our mistakes, whenever possible, we rectify them. Even when it is painful.”

 

 

Even Egwene agrees with the fact that the AS must bond as many Ashaman, the Greens even several each, but the rest of the AS, especially the ones with power of decision, seem to be OK with using even Compulsion to control them.

And birching is not such a big penalty for using such a wave against an Asha'man.

 

 

Nice post!!

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Narishma told the Aes Sedai that saidin is clean though. And Merise confirmed it. So there wouldn't be any worries about the Ashaman going mad.

 

Which came far later than tPoD which was when the actual bonding was done. As many have said those types of things don't change over night. Three thousand years of thinking takes a long time to change, and as far as they all know it would be the largest miracle in their world for it to actually happen. Even Merise says she isn't sure because Saidin is so unfamiliar. Himiko above had the most reasonable take. Both sides play a role, you have to be seriously biased to not acknowledge that.

 

The bonding happened in tPoD, but the Aes Sedai learned of it in KoD, which is after the Cleansing. And Merise actually says she is convinced it is clean, though it took her time to be sure, and Romanda doesn't seem to doubt her. She specifically says: "a marvel to balance some of the horrors". Furthermore, once Narishma tells them about the bonding of the Aes Sedai, Romanda decides that the agreement they just agreed to is unacceptable because it brings everything back to a balance. Which she doesn't want, because the Ashaman are men, or because they're Aes Sedai and therefore above them. One or the other. Or both for that matter.

 

EDIT: Or, you know, you can just read Aiel's post. I'll be the PS.

[Suttree]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Narishma told the Aes Sedai that saidin is clean though. And Merise confirmed it. So there wouldn't be any worries about the Ashaman going mad.

 

Which came far later than tPoD which was when the actual bonding was done. As many have said those types of things don't change over night. Three thousand years of thinking takes a long time to change, and as far as they all know it would be the largest miracle in their world for it to actually happen. Even Merise says she isn't sure because Saidin is so unfamiliar. Himiko above had the most reasonable take. Both sides play a role, you have to be seriously biased to not acknowledge that.

 

The bonding happened in tPoD, but the Aes Sedai learned of it in KoD, which is after the Cleansing. And Merise actually says she is convinced it is clean, though it took her time to be sure, and Romanda doesn't seem to doubt her. She specifically says: "a marvel to balance some of the horrors". Furthermore, once Narishma tells them about the bonding of the Aes Sedai, Romanda decides that the agreement they just agreed to is unacceptable because it brings everything back to a balance. Which she doesn't want, because the Ashaman are men, or because they're Aes Sedai and therefore above them. One or the other. Or both for that matter.

 

EDIT: Or, you know, you can just read Aiel's post. I'll be the PS.

 

 

All the quotes he provided in the post above show she is pretty much good with it and sees the importance moving forward. She even rightly admits it was AS bungling that caused the whole thing. As for the compulsion part he mentions do you mean something similar to what the Ashaman added to the bond in controlling their wives? That in itself holds many issues aside from AS bias.

 

Nevertheless I was speaking of the the initial reactions we have from AS when they were bonded. We do get a reaction from them well before the sisters know its clean. In addition I don't understand why you seem to not get that a prevailing sentiment doesn't change overnight. Just because Egwene, etc feels one way doesn't mean all AS do. It would be totally unrealistic for them all to say Oh Saidin is cleansed, a miracle happened, even though it should be impossible, and who cares about those ones that are already mad...I'm good? All of that after the history of this world?!?! In fact RJ has explained over and over again how the Breaking & taint have shaped women's thoughts, and this situation is perfectly in line with that. Again no one is disputing bias doesn't play a role, but it is obviously not the only reason, not sure why people are so threatened by that.

 

KoD

“Saidin is clean,” Jahar said, though no one had addressed him. Merise really should teach the boy how to behave if she was going to bring him before the Hall.

“Clean?” Saroiya said derisively.

“It has been tainted for more than three thousand years,” Faiselle put in sharply. “How can be it clean?”

 

Despite what Merise says, you can bet on the fact the majority of AS feel as those above do. Not to mention the percentage of Ashaman already tainted.

 

Q: I know the male side of the Source is clean, but those who were driven mad before, will they be cured?

RJ: No. Whatever the degree of taint channelers have won't change. (they won't get more)

 

Also in the very quotes you are proving to show it's not a problem we have...

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

& Rand thinking

 

TGS

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He’d imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

So please tell me, how are they not thinking it's an issue again?

[David Selig]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

 

Bonding AS against their will was not nice, but in that case, it was the best case scenario.

They went to the BT to gentle, kill and hang all channelers, without counting all the extra casualties during the fight(servants, soldiers, family members that will try to protect their husbands, brothers, sons, etc).

If Taim found the order Logain burned, the AS would have been at least stilled.

It was ilogic to maintain at least 50 Ashaman each second to keep them shielded, so they chose the easiest way to control them without doing anything drastic.

Releasing them after they tried to commit mass-murder is also out of the question, and it will only make Elaida believe that she can try again with a larger number, and if they fail, the Ashaman will just release them again.

 

Even after the saidin is cleansed, the Amyrlin consider it a crime, even if they did it in self defense, but believes bonding all the Ashaman is the only way to deal with them.

So, the rape thing goes just one way?

Of course it's a crime. Self-defence is one thing, enslaving people with Compulsion effect through the bond is a completely different ball game.

[Dagon Thyne]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

There is also the fact that an Aes Sedi bonded to a male channelor is bound to him like a slave and must obey his commands. This is different than a typical warder/channelor relationship, like how Birgitte can disobey Elayne, and does not have to obey her every command.

 

As far as I could tell, it was frowned up for an Aes Sedai to force their warders to obey them since the warders' duty is to protect her, even from herself and not just obey her.

[XXX]

 

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Narishma told the Aes Sedai that saidin is clean though. And Merise confirmed it. So there wouldn't be any worries about the Ashaman going mad.

 

Which came far later than tPoD which was when the actual bonding was done. As many have said those types of things don't change over night. Three thousand years of thinking takes a long time to change, and as far as they all know it would be the largest miracle in their world for it to actually happen. Even Merise says she isn't sure because Saidin is so unfamiliar. Himiko above had the most reasonable take. Both sides play a role, you have to be seriously biased to not acknowledge that.

 

The bonding happened in tPoD, but the Aes Sedai learned of it in KoD, which is after the Cleansing. And Merise actually says she is convinced it is clean, though it took her time to be sure, and Romanda doesn't seem to doubt her. She specifically says: "a marvel to balance some of the horrors". Furthermore, once Narishma tells them about the bonding of the Aes Sedai, Romanda decides that the agreement they just agreed to is unacceptable because it brings everything back to a balance. Which she doesn't want, because the Ashaman are men, or because they're Aes Sedai and therefore above them. One or the other. Or both for that matter.

 

EDIT: Or, you know, you can just read Aiel's post. I'll be the PS.

 

 

All the quotes he provided in the post above show she is pretty much good with it and sees the importance moving forward. She even rightly admits it was AS bungling that caused the whole thing. As for the compulsion part he mentions do you mean something similar to what the Ashaman added to the bond in controlling their wives? That in itself holds many issues aside from AS bias.

 

Nevertheless I was speaking of the the initial reactions we have from AS when they were bonded. We do get a reaction from them well before the sisters know its clean. In addition I don't understand why you seem to not get that a prevailing sentiment doesn't change overnight. Just because Egwene, etc feels one way doesn't mean all AS do. It would be totally unrealistic for them all to say Oh Saidin is cleansed, a miracle happened, even though it should be impossible, and who cares about those ones that are already mad...I'm good? All of that after the history of this world?!?! In fact RJ has explained over and over again how the Breaking & taint have shaped women's thoughts, and this situation is perfectly in line with that. Again no one is disputing bias doesn't play a role, but it is obviously not the only reason, not sure why people are so threatened by that.

 

KoD

“Saidin is clean,” Jahar said, though no one had addressed him. Merise really should teach the boy how to behave if she was going to bring him before the Hall.

“Clean?” Saroiya said derisively.

“It has been tainted for more than three thousand years,” Faiselle put in sharply. “How can be it clean?”

 

Despite what Merise says, you can bet on the fact the majority of AS feel as those above do.

 

Also in the very quotes you are proving to show it's not a problem we have...

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

So please tell me, how are they not thinking it's an issue again?

 

Defense of the indefensible?

 

Why do you just not admit that the attitude of the AS is sexist and arrogant..they cannot accept an equal relationship with the Ashaman or anyone else because they think they are superior to everyone else.

[XXX]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

There is also the fact that an Aes Sedi bonded to a male channelor is bound to him like a slave and must obey his commands. This is different than a typical warder/channelor relationship, like how Birgitte can disobey Elayne, and does not have to obey her every command.

 

As far as I could tell, it was frowned up for an Aes Sedai to force their warders to obey them since the warders' duty is to protect her, even from herself and not just obey her.

 

Egwene or any of the AS have no idea what type of bonding has been used by the Asha'man.

[XXX]

Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

 

Bonding AS against their will was not nice, but in that case, it was the best case scenario.

They went to the BT to gentle, kill and hang all channelers, without counting all the extra casualties during the fight(servants, soldiers, family members that will try to protect their husbands, brothers, sons, etc).

If Taim found the order Logain burned, the AS would have been at least stilled.

It was ilogic to maintain at least 50 Ashaman each second to keep them shielded, so they chose the easiest way to control them without doing anything drastic.

Releasing them after they tried to commit mass-murder is also out of the question, and it will only make Elaida believe that she can try again with a larger number, and if they fail, the Ashaman will just release them again.

 

Even after the saidin is cleansed, the Amyrlin consider it a crime, even if they did it in self defense, but believes bonding all the Ashaman is the only way to deal with them.

So, the rape thing goes just one way?

Of course it's a crime. Self-defence is one thing, enslaving people with Compulsion effect through the bond is a completely different ball game.

 

 

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

[Suttree]

Defense of the indefensible?

 

Why do you just not admit that the attitude of the AS is sexist and arrogant..they cannot accept an equal relationship with the Ashaman or anyone else because they think they are superior to everyone else.

 

Did you miss these posts Lord Captain Commander?

 

things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night

 

No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

 

Both sides play a role

 

Again no one is disputing bias doesn't play a role

 

Not all of us are so blind as to what goes on in the books.

 

As for the arrogant attitude, again it is realistic for this society. RJ has this to say.

 

RJ

The details don't really matter in the context of this interview, except for the fact that that destruction was caused by men, members of the male sex. A world that has grown out of that has to have a great deal of power for women, especially when the world has spent the last 3000 years being afraid of any man who has the ability to channel the One Power. You have to have a world where women have power. That's the way it's going to evolve. It can't go any other way. It's only a question of how much power they have.

 

It's crazy to me that people expect three thousand years of having to fear male channelers would change over night. This quote actually does a pretty good job of touching on both sides of the issue.

[David Selig]

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

No. But that's not my point - I meant that just because it's self-defence doesn't give someone the right to enslave his attacker.

 

Compulsion type slavery through the bond and killing weren't the only options, BTW.

[XXX]

How can AS attitude play a smaller role than the taint when even after the taint has been cleared and confirmed by one of their own we have the views of a sitter,the chief Amyrlin advisor,the Amyrlin herself and other AS showing distaste at the thought of the AS getting bonded to men?

 

So it is pretty clear that immaterial of any taint being present,they hold the same bigoted attitude.

[XXX]

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

No. But that's not my point - I meant that just because it's self-defence doesn't give someone the right to enslave his attacker.

 

Compulsion type slavery through the bond and killing weren't the only options, BTW.

 

The only true option was to slaughter the invading AS...no crime in any civilized nation.

 

That they were bonded and spared their lives was a mercy given to the AS by the DR, something the high and mighty AS cannot comprehend in their supreme arrogance.

[Suttree]

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

No. But that's not my point - I meant that just because it's self-defence doesn't give someone the right to enslave his attacker.

 

Compulsion type slavery through the bond and killing weren't the only options, BTW.

 

The only true option was to slaughter the invading AS...no crime in any civilized nation.

 

That they were bonded and spared their lives was a mercy given to the AS by the DR, something the high and mighty AS cannot comprehend in their supreme arrogance.

 

The taint was still present, no one at that point had any idea that the DR would perform a miracle. Even though Elaida is a complete idiot the Red's were merely doing their job. They saved and protected the world from murderous madmen for three thousand years but now all of a sudden they are some invading force that deserves to be slaughtered or enslaved? It would be like police showing up to arrest a psychotic madman and you saying he has every right to kill them.

[Luckers]

Here's the thing: forcibly bonding someone is nasty--especially for the room it leaves for abuse. For all that, it was probably the best option the Asha'man had--the only practical alternative being to kill the Aes Sedai, a fact Egwene acknowledges when she herself orders the execution of the Black sisters--that many sisters are too dangerous to be kept prisoner--and to date the bond has not been abused, which is mitigating, as is the fact that the Aes Sedai were the agressors.

 

But for all that I do understand the Aes Sedai's position. When something which has the potential to be horribly abused is used on your sister by a man you have had three thousand years of reasons to reguard as a monster, its pretty upsetting. This response is not rational, its emotional, but for all that, understandable.

[Ratatatpat]

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

No. But that's not my point - I meant that just because it's self-defence doesn't give someone the right to enslave his attacker.

 

Compulsion type slavery through the bond and killing weren't the only options, BTW.

 

The other options include returning the sisters back to Elaida, which is unacceptable because they'll just return with a larger force or killing/stilling them. I'd say they chose the most feasible route.

 

This was mentioned earlier by someone sorry for not giving proper credit!

[Guest PiotrekS]

The sisters should be pleasantly surprised they were not killed, as agressors.

The bonding was the only feasible option.

[Mr Ares]

They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

Actually, her orders were to kill everyone on sight. And then hang even the bodies.

I can't remember did she specify non-channelers/family or did she assume it was just a few crazed men at the BT?

 

This really highlights how terrible of an Amrylin she was, although people should note Saidin was still tainted at this point so the Red's were in someways doing their duty. I wonder if the decision was influenced a bit by Elaida being involved in "The Vileness" and already having been involved with something similar.

Maybe I was a little rash in saying children and all, but Elaida was ranting about the BT and we have Toveine's thought about the orders.

 

The silly Brown nattered on as she carried out her domestic tasks like a contented farmwife. “I’ve learned a good deal already. Logain is the only full Asha’man to live here in this village. The others all live in Taim’s ‘palace.’ They have servants, but Logain hired the wife of a man in training to cook and clean for him. She’ll be here soon, and she thinks he put the sun in the sky, so we best be done talking anything important by then. He found your lapdesk.”

 

Toveine felt as though an icy hand had seized her throat. She tried to hide it, but Gabrelle was looking straight at her.

 

“He burned it, Toveine. After reading the contents. He seemed to think he had done us a favor.”

 

The hand eased, and Toveine could breathe again. “Elaida’s order was among my papers.” She cleared her throat to rid herself of hoarseness. Elaida’s order to gentle every man found here and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law. “She imposed harsh conditions, and these men would have reacted harshly, if they knew.” In spite of the heat from the stove, she shivered. That single paper could have gotten them all stilled and hanged. “Why would he do us favors?”

Now, Toveine was involved in the gentling and/or killing on the spot 20 years ago, and she received penace.

Since she's talking about 'stilling and hanging', I believe she is talking about what the WT would do if they follow the orders on that paper.

If the Ashaman wanted them dead, why bother to still them first? Only the WT does that, in extreme cases.

So if the order was to only gentle the Ashaman on the spot and hang them, the penalty would be a little lighter, like the last time she did the same.

Especially since they were following the order of the Amyrlin.

I don't see how that really follows. How is Toveine to know that the BT wouldn't still them, for example? She's been sent to deal with a small group of channeling men, or so she believes. If those men found out she was planning to kill them, they would probably not react well. Which is to say, they would string her up. She is talking about the reaction of the Asha'man, not of the WT. They were sent to kill the Asha'man, nothing more.

[XXX]

So you preferred that the AS be just slaughtered?...self defense with use of deadly force is no crime in most civilized places when your life is at stake.

No. But that's not my point - I meant that just because it's self-defence doesn't give someone the right to enslave his attacker.

 

Compulsion type slavery through the bond and killing weren't the only options, BTW.

 

The only true option was to slaughter the invading AS...no crime in any civilized nation.

 

That they were bonded and spared their lives was a mercy given to the AS by the DR, something the high and mighty AS cannot comprehend in their supreme arrogance.

 

The taint was still present, no one at that point had any idea that the DR would perform a miracle. Even though Elaida is a complete idiot the Red's were merely doing their job. They saved and protected the world from murderous madmen for three thousand years but now all of a sudden they are some invading force that deserves to be slaughtered or enslaved? It would be like police showing up to arrest a psychotic madman and you saying he has every right to kill them.

 

 

But they were not sent to still them..they were sent to kill them. No one gave any red the right to kill people without trail.

 

If police are sent to kill a potential psychotic madman who has committed no crimes and was minding his own business in his house..then he is well within his right to react with deadly force to save his life anywhere in the civilized world.

[Xcorpyo001]

I don't see how that really follows. How is Toveine to know that the BT wouldn't still them, for example? She's been sent to deal with a small group of channeling men, or so she believes. If those men found out she was planning to kill them, they would probably not react well. Which is to say, they would string her up. She is talking about the reaction of the Asha'man, not of the WT. They were sent to kill the Asha'man, nothing more.

 

 

She also doesn't know if they can still a woman channeler. The women use a circle to do that.

The only guy who did that was Rand, and he managed to do it by himself, without a circle, because he's much stronger than anyone else and had some help from LTT. I don't know if the Asha'man can still a woman, even if they wanted to.

Ashaman can't still men channelers(PoD), so they poison the ones that go crazy directly.

If they wanted them dead, why bother to still them first? They could just hang them directly, or just cut their heads off, while they were still shielded.

 

The WT is the only institution in the world that has stilling+penance or stilling+execution as a punishment for the most heinous crimes, like murdering people without trial in the WT.

[randsc]

They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

 

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

 

That is not true. All men were to be killed, Asha'man or not.