The Dragon that turned to the Shadow.

[Andhaira]

In one of the books it is mentioned that a Dragon has in a past Age turned to the Shadow. My question is, if that happened, how did the forces of Light win?

 

I can only assume that it was the primary Dragon (like Lews Therin was), NOT the Dragon Reborn (which Rand is). If the primary Dragon is converted, then IMO it is still possible for the light to win. But if the Dragon Reborn is converted, then it is not possible, for far too much depends on the prophecies surrounding him. Remember, it is only the Dragon Reborn that has prophecies about him, not the primary Dragon.

 

What do you guys think?

[damandred]

Ishy lied when he when he said he had turned dragons before just before there fight at the end of the great hunt rand tells ishy that he knows that in thousands of turnings of the wheel he knows he has never turned once whitch doesn't go down to well with ishy . Hope that helps

[Kahsm]

Ishy lied when he when he said he had turned dragons before just before there fight at the end of the great hunt rand tells ishy that he knows that in thousands of turnings of the wheel he knows he has never turned once whitch doesn't go down to well with ishy . Hope that helps

 

No, RJ said he was telling the truth. That the Dragon has turned to the shadow in the past. But in those instances the "last battle" was a draw.

 

Fighting the DO is a single-loss game for the light. They get to go again as long as they win or draw. If they lose once it's over. But the CoL is not necessarily the only way to survive.

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Terez]

For those who say that the Champion of the Light refers to someone other than Rand, this quote kills that:

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Because Ishamael was talking about Rand, not some random (non-existent) Hero of the Light.

[damandred]

Seems I was wrong but I was sure rand says to ishy something along the lines of in a thousand turns of the wheel he never did turn at the end of the great hunt lent my copy out so can't check damm.

[Terez]

Yes, he said that. He was wrong. (It took me entirely too long to read that sentence. Have you ever heard of punctuation?)

[Andhaira]

Thanks for the replies and confirmations all. So, in light of all that has been revealed, I stand by my theory that the original dragon is the one that had probably gone over to the Shadow. Then, it would have been up to the Dragon Reborn to reseal the Dark One.

 

What an epic tale that would have been. That Dragon Reborn would really have had his work cut out for him, many times more over than Rand does. I mean, if there was a draw then it means the Dark One remains partially freed for thousands of years. Think the Trolloc Wars, except they last for around 3000 years. Entire generations grow up under the Trolloc/Shadow threat. And the Forsaken remain free.

 

I wonder how that Dragon Reborn managed to reseal the Dark One then. Also, why didn't the Dark One get fully freed if he had such a long time to find a way to do so.

[UncleButcher1980]

You might want to have a look at this thread

[damandred]

To terez how long can it take to read 5 lines and I didn't think I was in a test or being marked in anyway. Thank you very much. Sniff.

[Kahsm]

Thanks for the replies and confirmations all. So, in light of all that has been revealed, I stand by my theory that the original dragon is the one that had probably gone over to the Shadow. Then, it would have been up to the Dragon Reborn to reseal the Dark One.

 

What an epic tale that would have been. That Dragon Reborn would really have had his work cut out for him, many times more over than Rand does. I mean, if there was a draw then it means the Dark One remains partially freed for thousands of years. Think the Trolloc Wars, except they last for around 3000 years. Entire generations grow up under the Trolloc/Shadow threat. And the Forsaken remain free.

 

I wonder how that Dragon Reborn managed to reseal the Dark One then. Also, why didn't the Dark One get fully freed if he had such a long time to find a way to do so.

 

 

I think, as far as we know, LTT is "The Dragon" and Rand is "The Dragon Reborn". But there are no other Dragons. They may have had their own names, we don't know anything about them. We tend to refer to them as Champions of (the) Light when speaking about all the incarnations.

 

Though maybe a full turning ago it was TD and TDR again. But LTT (the orignal dragon?) most certainly did not turn to the shadow, he just screwed up, which can also happen.

 

And in theory there is no "original" CotL, because there are beginnings or endings to the turning of the wheel ;)

 

I tend to think that when the CotL goes to the shadow, there are other heroes (possibly of the horn) or forces/institutions that manage to counter-balance enough to keep the pattern from being destroyed. Though I'm sure it's not pretty. Probably makes the breaking look like an inconvenience.

[Terez]

To terez how long can it take to read 5 lines and I didn't think I was in a test or being marked in anyway. Thank you very much. Sniff.

You're not in a test, but if you want people to read your posts... *shrug*

[OptimusPrime]

In one of the books it is mentioned that a Dragon has in a past Age turned to the Shadow. My question is, if that happened, how did the forces of Light win?

 

I can only assume that it was the primary Dragon (like Lews Therin was), NOT the Dragon Reborn (which Rand is). If the primary Dragon is converted, then IMO it is still possible for the light to win. But if the Dragon Reborn is converted, then it is not possible, for far too much depends on the prophecies surrounding him. Remember, it is only the Dragon Reborn that has prophecies about him, not the primary Dragon.

 

What do you guys think?

 

This is an interesting question but I think it can be either one. IMO, when the next version of LTT comes, Rand will seem to be THAT guys version of LTT. The terms Dragon and Dragon Reborn seem unique to this turning, and I say that because Lews Therins personal title, not the official Champion of the Light name.

 

I definitely think the Light can win even if the Dragon Reborn was properly turned, I think the Horn of Valere is able to defeat a Dark Dragon because RJ said that Horn vs Dragon makes a rift in the Pattern. That sounds like its on the right sort of scale to unmake a Ta'veren. So maybe that rift in the Pattern would be what stops a Dark Dragon from still having control over the Pattern instead of having time and events warp around him to keep him alive.

[Aleator77]

To terez how long can it take to read 5 lines and I didn't think I was in a test or being marked in anyway. Thank you very much. Sniff.

You're not in a test, but if you want people to read your posts... *shrug*

 

I didn't have any problem reading it. Some posters are young. Some posters have different primary languages. Do you always have to be so rude to people?

[Terez]

To terez how long can it take to read 5 lines and I didn't think I was in a test or being marked in anyway. Thank you very much. Sniff.

You're not in a test, but if you want people to read your posts... *shrug*

 

I didn't have any problem reading it. Some posters are young. Some posters have different primary languages.

The ones with different primary languages usually have better English than the natives. And this dude's post was something like third grade level English, if that.

 

Do you always have to be so rude to people?

The fact that I'm not always rude to people should answer your question.

[Sharaman]

If Rand had used TP balefire on the Brderlanders when they slapped him around, would he have been over the edge and turned to the shadow?

There is an indication of that both in the underlying prophesy and also in Rand's own verbal response.

[Kahsm]

To terez how long can it take to read 5 lines and I didn't think I was in a test or being marked in anyway. Thank you very much. Sniff.

You're not in a test, but if you want people to read your posts... *shrug*

 

I didn't have any problem reading it. Some posters are young. Some posters have different primary languages.

The ones with different primary languages usually have better English than the natives. And this dude's post was something like third grade level English, if that.

 

Do you always have to be so rude to people?

The fact that I'm not always rude to people should answer your question.

 

Hehe. Sounds to me like that's a "Usually" ;)

[Finnssss22]

In one of the books it is mentioned that a Dragon has in a past Age turned to the Shadow. My question is, if that happened, how did the forces of Light win?

 

I can only assume that it was the primary Dragon (like Lews Therin was), NOT the Dragon Reborn (which Rand is). If the primary Dragon is converted, then IMO it is still possible for the light to win. But if the Dragon Reborn is converted, then it is not possible, for far too much depends on the prophecies surrounding him. Remember, it is only the Dragon Reborn that has prophecies about him, not the primary Dragon.

 

What do you guys think?

 

This is an interesting question but I think it can be either one. IMO, when the next version of LTT comes, Rand will seem to be THAT guys version of LTT. The terms Dragon and Dragon Reborn seem unique to this turning, and I say that because Lews Therins personal title, not the official Champion of the Light name.

 

Same soul, different people. Remember, neither the Champion of the Light, the DarkOne or even Channeling is around in every age. Just like Wolfbrothers, Sniffers or Min's type of viewing are not in every age either.

 

Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.

 

 

 

 

 

I definitely think the Light can win even if the Dragon Reborn was properly turned, I think the Horn of Valere is able to defeat a Dark Dragon because RJ said that Horn vs Dragon makes a rift in the Pattern. That sounds like its on the right sort of scale to unmake a Ta'veren. So maybe that rift in the Pattern would be what stops a Dark Dragon from still having control over the Pattern instead of having time and events warp around him to keep him alive.

 

From all the quotes I have found, the implication is that turning the CotL only guarantee's that the DO can't lose/Light can not win.

This one in particular. (Notice he doesn't say usually results in a draw, he says does result a draw.)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[damandred]

Aleater thanks mate! But I'm 30 yrs of age from England. I was distracted when writing the post in question and thought getting my point across was more important than punctuation.(Never one of my strenths anyway) But you know you will get sullen fussy people(maybe needs to gets more of a sex life) who will complain I don't let it bother me as I know most WoT fans to be good respectfull people who care only about the reasons they join a debate like this one and not about putting people down. Once again thanks for your support

[coolpool]

For those who say that the Champion of the Light refers to someone other than Rand, this quote kills that:

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Because Ishamael was talking about Rand, not some random (non-existent) Hero of the Light.

 

doesn't prove anything... (plz don't kill me now :S) ishmael said the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light) has turned before and RJ said that he wasn't lying.. look how RJ said "No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes"

 

offcourse telling rand that the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light) wud serve his purpose because rand and you have asumed straight away that the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light )must be him an no other person... and that aes sedi truth has served its purpose of freaking rand out and causing doubt (and trying to get him to turn to the shadow obviously.) But it doesn't mean atall that the hero of the light is rand. There is no statment there that says that rand, the dragon reborn has turned.. only that ishmael was not lying when he said that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow. All we know is that there have been other heros of the light IIRC from a quote somewhere and a hero/s of the light has turned sometime in the past... it has never been proven that rand has definatly turned or is the only hero/champion of the light.

 

so there.. thats my piece... and again.. please don't kill me :/

[rand4747]

Does the champion of light always have to be the same soul? Its probably not always the Rand/lews therin soul (Dragon soul) whos the champion of the light, so the champion could have turned before but Rand/lews therin's soul has not.

[Finnssss22]

doesn't prove anything... (plz don't kill me now :S) ishmael said the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light) has turned before and RJ said that he wasn't lying.. look how RJ said "No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes"

 

offcourse telling rand that the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light) wud serve his purpose because rand and you have asumed straight away that the hero of the Light (aka the champion of the light )must be him an no other person... and that aes sedi truth has served its purpose of freaking rand out and causing doubt (and trying to get him to turn to the shadow obviously.) But it doesn't mean atall that the hero of the light is rand. There is no statment there that says that rand, the dragon reborn has turned.. only that ishmael was not lying when he said that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow. All we know is that there have been other heros of the light IIRC from a quote somewhere and a hero/s of the light has turned sometime in the past... it has never been proven that rand has definatly turned or is the only hero/champion of the light.

 

so there.. thats my piece... and again.. please don't kill me :/

 

Guess you missed my post(#17) with the other relevant quotes from RJ that DO prove it

 

 

As far as whether or not Rand's soul is always the CotL, I believe Hawkwing, when called by the Horn in tGH, pretty much answers that question.

[Terez]

Guess you missed my post(#17) with the other relevant quotes from RJ that DO prove it

And apparently you missed the fact that your quote was already given upthread. And then there's this one:

 

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

Also:

 

"That is better, Lews Therin." Ba'alzamon tossed the banner to the floor and put his hands on the chair back; wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers. The shadow no longer encompassed him. "There is your banner, Kinslayer. Much good will it do you. A thousand strings laid over a thousand years have drawn you here. Ten thousand woven throughout the Ages tie you like a sheep for slaughter. The Wheel itself holds you prisoner to your fate Age after Age. But I can set you free. You cowering cur, I alone in the entire world can teach you how to wield the Power. I alone can stop it killing you before you have a chance to go mad. I alone can stop the madness. You have served me before. Serve me again, Lews Therin, or be destroyed forever!"

And another:

 

"You worm, you know nothing at all. As ignorant as a beetle under a rock, and as easily crushed. This struggle has gone on since the moment of creation. Always men think it a new war, but it is just the same war discovered anew. Only now change blows on the winds of time. Change. This time there will be no drifting back. Those proud Aes Sedai who think to stand you up against me. I will dress them in chains and send them running naked to do my bidding, or stuff their souls into the Pit of Doom to scream for eternity. All but those who already serve me. They will stand but a step beneath me. You can choose to stand with them, with the world groveling at your feet. I offer it one more time, one last time. You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power."

He says YOU have served me before; YOU made that choice. Not some random hero of the Light. Rand. RJ said he wasn't lying. Case closed.

[OptimusPrime]

In one of the books it is mentioned that a Dragon has in a past Age turned to the Shadow. My question is, if that happened, how did the forces of Light win?

 

I can only assume that it was the primary Dragon (like Lews Therin was), NOT the Dragon Reborn (which Rand is). If the primary Dragon is converted, then IMO it is still possible for the light to win. But if the Dragon Reborn is converted, then it is not possible, for far too much depends on the prophecies surrounding him. Remember, it is only the Dragon Reborn that has prophecies about him, not the primary Dragon.

 

What do you guys think?

 

This is an interesting question but I think it can be either one. IMO, when the next version of LTT comes, Rand will seem to be THAT guys version of LTT. The terms Dragon and Dragon Reborn seem unique to this turning, and I say that because Lews Therins personal title, not the official Champion of the Light name.

 

Same soul, different people. Remember, neither the Champion of the Light, the DarkOne or even Channeling is around in every age. Just like Wolfbrothers, Sniffers or Min's type of viewing are not in every age either.

 

Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one.

 

 

 

 

 

I definitely think the Light can win even if the Dragon Reborn was properly turned, I think the Horn of Valere is able to defeat a Dark Dragon because RJ said that Horn vs Dragon makes a rift in the Pattern. That sounds like its on the right sort of scale to unmake a Ta'veren. So maybe that rift in the Pattern would be what stops a Dark Dragon from still having control over the Pattern instead of having time and events warp around him to keep him alive.

 

From all the quotes I have found, the implication is that turning the CotL only guarantee's that the DO can't lose/Light can not win.

This one in particular. (Notice he doesn't say usually results in a draw, he says does result a draw.)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Exactly, this is what made me say simply turning a CotL isnt enough. I reckon the CotLs frame of mind is always the key, so his reasons for turning Dark would mean everything with regard to the Light drawing or losing.

 

I think there will be plenty of ways to weaken the Pattern enough for the Dark One to destroy it and break free, but the best one seems to be to get the CotL to WANT the Pattern to break. Assuming every major incarnation gets what Rand has with bending the Pattern to their will, that by itself seems greater than any channeling ability. If Demandred had been told to walk around balefiring loads of significant people for example, all the Pattern would need to do is throw a Ta'veren his way. But Rands mentality governs his Ta'veren spin on effects in TGS, it seems to pretty much assault the Pattern directly in the times when he went all cold and "yea I dont give a crap anymore."

 

In short, having people chip away at the Patterns strength is too easily countered. You need to hack the system, get bad Ta'verenism. CotL has that as strong as it gets, so if you can get that guy to turn Dark under the right conditions, you have the only type of scenario in which the Shadow actually has any shred of a chance to win.

 

IMO, the Dark One needs a very rare type of Dragon Nae'blis. If Lanfear was male and happened to be a turned CotL, she wouldnt be the right type, for example, because if she had the Pattern bending will thing, that stuff goes off whats going on in your head, and she DEFINITELY didnt want the Dark One to break free. Or at least, it wasnt the sort of thing she would exert her will on the Pattern to get. So she would make a bad candidate if she was the same person we know but in that scenario.

 

Moridin though, his entire being is devoted to destroying it all. He actually WANTS it. Thats the key. If he had been a turned CotL and was the same person we know now, he could destroy it himself IMO, if he learned what Rand did in TGS. The Shadow could actually win outright with that.

 

Seeing how far Rand can be pushed Id say he is definitely the right kind of Dragon. TGS was a real eye opener IMO, because in VoG he came very close to WANTING the Pattern to die. Thats what the Dark One needs IMO, thats why its so important for the Shadow that he lives. Now I know he has some pretty hefty new defenses (his newfound faith being the main one) but theres still some hope for the Shadow. Theres four weapons aimed right at Rands mentality already, them Warder bonds could potentially send him crazy again I think. Especially if more than one broke at the same time, because then he'd know for sure one of the harem would be dead.

[damandred]

Don't have one with me but I remember reading a early edition of TEoTW. The thing that caught me, that really captured my imagination and made me fall in love with the whole series was the breif opening paragraths that explained the WoT and the dark one and it said (I think haven't read it in years) that in the ages the dark one troubles men the DRAGON is there to oppose him.(Not the exact words but the gist) Regarding the above quotes by RJ, with the greatest respect I think RJ himself may have not been clear in his own mind some of the roles of his creations, which is understandable given how long he was writting the series, its not inconcevable that over those plots and charictorsb changed. I think it has to be reconized given the many Quotes and parts in the books that appear to be at odds.

[Terez]

Don't have one with me but I remember reading a early edition of TEoTW. The thing that caught me, that really captured my imagination and made me fall in love with the whole series was the breif opening paragraths that explained the WoT and the dark one and it said (I think haven't read it in years) that in the ages the dark one troubles men the DRAGON is there to oppose him.(Not the exact words but the gist) Regarding the above quotes by RJ, with the greatest respect I think RJ himself may have not been clear in his own mind some of the roles of his creations, which is understandable given how long he was writting the series, its not inconcevable that over those plots and charictorsb changed. I think it has to be reconized given the many Quotes and parts in the books that appear to be at odds.

What are you getting at? So far as I can tell, RJ didn't contradict himself in any way on this one.