Rand at Maradon

[Entreri]

Very interesting points and I agree.

 

It appears even I have misjudged the greatness that is LTT. How obtuse of me.

 

Can you imagine what Rand/LTT 2.0 is capable of? Unimaginable.

[MasterAblar]

Does Rand get more than LTT s memories in VoG? I seem to remember reading that he could remember all his past lives

 

 

No, he only permanently got LTT's memories.

[damandred]

I think its wrong to assume Rand had more help than LTT. (sa'angreal, finn advice ect) LTT had all the tecnology and knowlage from the AoL plus 100 of the lights stronget male AS.

[WhiskyJack]

TP was a right back then in AoL, not a privilege like it is in this age. Yet, I think most avoided it.

[Entreri]

Many Forsaken must have faced off against the Dragon and even their strongest lost and making the assumption they would then use the TP ("dire needs" as Demandred states), LTT was even more THE MAN.

 

TP advantages are HUGE and still they lost against the Dragon.

 

It is no wonder Shai'tan, Ishamael and Lanfear are going after Rand like a tasty donut.

[MasterAblar]

Many Forsaken must have faced off against the Dragon and even their strongest lost and making the assumption they would then use the TP ("dire needs" as Demandred states), LTT was even more THE MAN.

 

TP advantages are HUGE and still they lost against the Dragon.

 

It is no wonder Shai'tan, Ishamael and Lanfear are going after Rand like a tasty donut.

 

I don't think there was ever any doubt that LTT was THE MAN, as you say. Being a complete badass sort of comes with being the greatest dude of the age in my opinion.

[Elan Tedronai]

Very interesting points and I agree.

 

It appears even I have misjudged the greatness that is LTT. How obtuse of me.

 

Can you imagine what Rand/LTT 2.0 is capable of? Unimaginable.

 

 

I think where rand beats LTT is his personality and wisdom. LTT was arrogant and prideful. He was haughty and vain. Comes with the territory of being the supreme channeller i suppose. But rand was raised better. There's no pride with rand until he started going crazy towards the later parts of the book.

 

so personality wise, i agree that rand is better than LTT.

[Entreri]

Very interesting points and I agree.

 

It appears even I have misjudged the greatness that is LTT. How obtuse of me.

 

Can you imagine what Rand/LTT 2.0 is capable of? Unimaginable.

 

 

I think where rand beats LTT is his personality and wisdom. LTT was arrogant and prideful. He was haughty and vain. Comes with the territory of being the supreme channeller i suppose. But rand was raised better. There's no pride with rand until he started going crazy towards the later parts of the book.

 

so personality wise, i agree that rand is better than LTT.

 

There is also at least one extra ability that Rand has that LTT did not: "Light" in his mind (protects from the taint). There is also the effect of driving DF's mad (Maradon). Book 14 should provide a lot of answers and hopefully Brandon will be more open to providing answers after the series is over.

[WhiskyJack]

Initially Herid and now Min is trying to find a way to seal DO for good. That says it all. OP or whatever will be needed of course but this is a game of mind, not brute force. Brute force failed last time.

[WhiskyJack]

Very interesting points and I agree.

 

It appears even I have misjudged the greatness that is LTT. How obtuse of me.

 

Can you imagine what Rand/LTT 2.0 is capable of? Unimaginable.

 

 

I think where rand beats LTT is his personality and wisdom. LTT was arrogant and prideful. He was haughty and vain. Comes with the territory of being the supreme channeller i suppose. But rand was raised better. There's no pride with rand until he started going crazy towards the later parts of the book.

 

so personality wise, i agree that rand is better than LTT.

 

There is also at least one extra ability that Rand has that LTT did not: "Light" in his mind (protects from the taint). There is also the effect of driving DF's mad (Maradon). Book 14 should provide a lot of answers and hopefully Brandon will be more open to providing answers after the series is over.

 

 

LTT was not born "mad". He didn't need such protection. He went mad "after" deed was done. We don't know what that light is but he didn't need it. What he needed was some humility. Rand also has picked another ability from LTT which other channelers don't have. He can in essence, recognize a soul. Imagine the trouble Ishmael went through in tEoTW to find out which one of the three boys was Dragon Reborn.

[MasterAblar]

Very interesting points and I agree.

 

It appears even I have misjudged the greatness that is LTT. How obtuse of me.

 

Can you imagine what Rand/LTT 2.0 is capable of? Unimaginable.

 

 

I think where rand beats LTT is his personality and wisdom. LTT was arrogant and prideful. He was haughty and vain. Comes with the territory of being the supreme channeller i suppose. But rand was raised better. There's no pride with rand until he started going crazy towards the later parts of the book.

 

so personality wise, i agree that rand is better than LTT.

 

I never really got where this view of LTT came from. He never struck me as that kind of person. In fact the only time we see the real him, he didn't show any of those traits. Only the Forsaken and LTT himself have said he was arrogant, and neither of them are best placed to make that evaluation of him. A lot of the Forsaken joined the Shadow out of jealousy of LTT. As for pride, to me he was more proud of the accomplishments of the Aes Sedai in the AoL than of himself in particular, though he would have a part in those accomplishments, which led to him believing that they could fix the bore despite the Creator having built the prison in the first place.

 

As for wisdom, he's the one who said that brute strength would not work against the DO, and he actually gave the answer to Rand on Dragonmount. And Rand's newfound wisdom has come after he gained all of LTT's memories. I'm not saying Rand was a fool before that, just that he was....well, young.

 

More than anything, I think that LTT began to despair, and through that others began to despair, and lose hope, and perhaps confidence in him.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I also don't think that LTT was that prideful or vain. He would not achieve his status on the Light side and would not resist the temptation of joining the Shadow if he had this huge personality problem that made quite a few of the Forsaken switch sides. I think that at most he might have been as prideful and full of himself as any other supreme and succesful leader of a strong organization (I won't be naming any names because it might infringe no threadjacking policy )

 

There are quotes about LTT's plan being too arrogant or prideful, that "in his pride he believed that humans could match the Creator". But I don't really understand it. What was they supposed to do when their world was burning and the DO was reaching across the Pattern? Pray to the Creator for help which they knew would not come? Since the Creator dealt with the DO in the beginning, wasn't each and every human attempt at fighting with the DO in fact "trying to match the Creator"?

 

I guess they would love the Creator to come and fix the problem, but since he was probably busy elsewhere, they had to cope by themselves. LTT took the responsibility and did what he felt he had to do. I really don't think he wanted to add just another honour to his name.

[FarShainMael]

"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

 

LTT knew that the Creator had given humanity the means to defeat the Dark One - if they used it properly.

[CrazyJP]

i'm thinking that Rand destroying the Choedan Kal did somrthing to him. maybe he absorbed something of it

[damandred]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

[MasterAblar]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

[damandred]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

[MasterAblar]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

 

1) There is no LTT.

2) Rand tussled with his own mind constantly making things very hard for him. That is how he lost his hand.

3) There was no need. Fight was won fairly easily. In Maradon, Rand was totally out of juice. In both places. Rand did the exact same thing, just for longer period of time. Besides, geographically it was easier to hammer shadowspawn in Maradon. In Tear, they were next door.

[damandred]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Not when they are standing 5 feet away from you. Maradon was open field, a nice open ground for killing. There is no LTT! Rand is just Rand. As long as he was fighting himself, he was not giving his best. And yes, it was a close run because they were surprised. Not close because they had run out of gas. In Maradon, if shadownspawn had persisted or there was even one enemy channeler, Rand would have died. Rand was just fine in Tear except for losing his mind.

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

 

Time to prepare? I don't know how exactly you are taking that word but he did pick a open space to fight, far away from shadowspawn and humans. That is why he didn't just start whacking them from city wall.

[MasterAblar]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Not when they are standing 5 feet away from you. Maradon was open field, a nice open ground for killing. There is no LTT! Rand is just Rand. As long as he was fighting himself, he was not giving his best. And yes, it was a close run because they were surprised. Not close because they had run out of gas. In Maradon, if shadownspawn had persisted or there was even one enemy channeler, Rand would have died. Rand was just fine in Tear except for losing his mind.

 

I don't know if he would have died, but the presence of channellers definitely would have complicated things.

[damandred]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

 

Time to prepare? I don't know how exactly you are taking that word but he did pick a open space to fight, far away from shadowspawn and humans. That is why he didn't just start whacking them from city wall.

 

 

Okay your right he chose his ground. But was the shadowspawn really that close to the manner house, Ituralde remarks about how precise he was. I know LTT was still crazy at the time of the manner attack but he still had the prescents of mind not to use Blossoms of Fire when the trollocs got to close. He never hit one tower at maradon.

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

 

Time to prepare? I don't know how exactly you are taking that word but he did pick a open space to fight, far away from shadowspawn and humans. That is why he didn't just start whacking them from city wall.

 

 

Okay your right he chose his ground. But was the shadowspawn really that close to the manner house, Ituralde remarks about how precise he was. I know LTT was still crazy at the time of the manner attack but he still had the prescents of mind not to use Blossoms of Fire when the trollocs got to close. He never hit one tower at maradon.

 

Er..My point is that there is no LTT (atleast not now). LTT cannot take over. Rand was just going crazy. So I don't understand what you are trying to prove? In both instances, it was just Rand, one saner and another going crazy. So if anyone was performing poorly, it was Rand. "LTT taking over" has no meaning because LTT died 3000 years ago. Ghost of LTT is not hanging around. Rand has LTT's memories. He doesn't have LTT. Even in Maradon, he used the exact same memories. Memories cannot boost your endurance or your raw power.