[Basic] Saw Mafia - Day 6

[John E. Kelley]

I agree Lee, I don't think it's scummy per se, just a very un-Verb-like post. Think Nol had a good point, but nothing I would want to base a lynch on. Now if something else comes up, it would be something to build a case with, but not from that alone. And inactives have to feel the pain.

[Leelou]

Unofficial Vote Count

 

Christine (2): Ishy, Tina

Nyn (2): Sakaea, Leelou

 

Not voting: everyone else

[Niniel]

So all of us that have voted have chosen an inactive player. Just out of curiosity - Sakaea why did you vote Nyn when there was already one vote for Christine? And the same question to Leelou, when you voted there were two votes for Christine but one for Nyn. Is there any particular reason for you choosing Nyn instead of Christine?

[John E. Kelley]

She may have done it to prevent a really fast bandwagon lynch. My point in casting a vote on Chrissy was to hopefully get her active, not to actually lynch her. I actually approve of Lee using her vote on Nyn, as maybe we can give them both a chance to get involved. If we had all used our vote on Christine, more than likely she would be gone fairly soon.

 

That being said however, I don't think we should be infinitely patient either. I don't want to go so far as to set a timetable or anything, but I really hope they get involved soon or I say we have to make a move on one or the other. Just my two cents there.

[Nolder]

it's scummy to vote for inactives

the hand of the mafia is at work here

[John E. Kelley]

She may have done it to prevent a really fast bandwagon lynch. My point in casting a vote on Chrissy was to hopefully get her active, not to actually lynch her. I actually approve of Lee using her vote on Nyn, as maybe we can give them both a chance to get involved. If we had all used our vote on Christine, more than likely she would be gone fairly soon.

 

That being said however, I don't think we should be infinitely patient either. I don't want to go so far as to set a timetable or anything, but I really hope they get involved soon or I say we have to make a move on one or the other. Just my two cents there.

 

Bolded the relevant part of my post Nol.

[Leelou]

I voted for Nyn because she said she was going to come back and tell us what she thought and never returned. It's also considered scummy to say one thing and then lurk again with no further comment. Plus, if the inactives are townies all they are doing is hurting the town. Yes we still have the numbers but they do not add any input to the game.

[Nolder]

My point in casting a vote on Chrissy was to hopefully get her active, not to actually lynch her.

 

Bolded the relevant part of my post Nol.

first of all if you outright state that your vote is to get a lurker active and not to lynch the threat is removed and the lurker will feel no compulsion to talk, assuming they were in fact lurking and not just generally inactive

so your entire plan is faulty right from the getgo

 

secondly voting/lynching a lurker gains you absolutely no new information

lets pretend for a second Christina is lynched and is mafia

or better yet let's take Nyn who has made two posts and said pretty much nothing relevant to the game

pretend Nyn is lynched and is mafia

where do you go from there?

Nyn did not bus or buddy anyone nor did anyone bus or buddy her that we will be able to tell

she didn't interact with anyone so we're left exactly where we started before we lynched her

except we got lucky and she was maf

lurkers are just as likely to be a townie (maybe even a PR)

there is no way to tell unless they've were previously active and then went inactive which is not the case in this game

 

I voted for Nyn because she said she was going to come back and tell us what she thought and never returned. It's also considered scummy to say one thing and then lurk again with no further comment. Plus, if the inactives are townies all they are doing is hurting the town. Yes we still have the numbers but they do not add any input to the game.

thirdly

this is not our job

we are not here to force inactive players to play

 

if these people are scum and are lurking as a tactic eventually the mod will kick them into gear and force them to interact at least a little bit

and when they come back they'll be under a whole lot of suspicion for not talking much which pretty much completely ruins the point of lurking in the first place (unless they were trying to draw attention to themselves, in which case it worked I guess?)

 

if they are legitimately inactive the mod will either modkill them or replace them after giving them a reasonable amount of time to come post

in either case it is not our job nor our problem

we need deal with people who participate and are able to give off scumtells not those who will be dealt with by the mod without our intervention

 

note I am not advocating we give lurkers a free pass

only that it is bad play to lynch people who have been near 100% inactive since the start of the game

[Leelou]

I think you are missing the point as to why I'm voting Nyn. Yes she is lurking, but it's for the fact that she said that she would be here to post her thoughts and then disappeared. Scum use this tactic to seem active enough but not really contribute to the game.

 

And normally on DM, people do not throw down a hammer vote without giving the person who is up for lynch time to defend themselves.

 

Nol, you haven't voted for anyone yet and you are having a very strong reaction to these votes - something I'm going to keep in mind.

[Nolder]

I think you are missing the point as to why I'm voting Nyn. Yes she is lurking, but it's for the fact that she said that she would be here to post her thoughts and then disappeared. Scum use this tactic to seem active enough but not really contribute to the game.

 

And normally on DM, people do not throw down a hammer vote without giving the person who is up for lynch time to defend themselves.

 

Nol, you haven't voted for anyone yet and you are having a very strong reaction to these votes - something I'm going to keep in mind.

I think you could be using that as cover to vote for an inactive and go for an easy town lynch as mafia

she's inactive

if she ever comes back give her heat for it then

why lynch her now? maybe she'll be replaced and that would explain why she never came back

it's pointless to lynch an inactive

 

you mean I haven't voted anyone today? because I voted yesterday

I haven't voted today because there is no need yet

day just started and not everyone has checked and given input

no need to hastily vote someone off when we have time

[John E. Kelley]

In the grander scheme of things, you're probably right Nol, we would gain no info, there's a chance that they will get modkilled or replaced, etc etc. But inactivity is ruining DM mafia. Ask Tina or Lee what inactivity did to the games they just modded. My voting inactives is basically a huge cry of "Enough!" Lynch me if you must, call me scum, but I would rather lose the next two dozen games I'm in if it gets inactivity out of our games. I can deal with rudeness, poor play, failed gambits, anything and everything else, but signing on to play and then going inactive is maddening. It's rude to the mod, rude to your teammates, and ruins the games for everyone involved. /end rant

 

Now, if you look back at what I originally said, I don't want either Nyn or Chrissy lynched at this point. To which you said, I basically gave them an out. Saying that they would have no incentive to change. But you neglected to mention that I also said that we shouldn't wait forever either. Should nothing change, then let's be done with them.

 

Also, you keep referring to them "lurking" while I call it "inactivity." Huge difference and neither of them is lurking, as I'm in more than one game with the both of them and it's the exact same thing from them in every game. Enough says this guy.

[Sakaea]

i voted nyn svus i didnt wanna bandwagon on chrissy...W00tfor drunk mafia!!!1

[John E. Kelley]

Hell yeah!! *Pauses to take a shot*

[Nolder]

But inactivity is ruining DM mafia.

this is not something that can be fixed by you as a player in a game

the solution to this (maybe) is funner games, stricter deadlines, and games with less spots available (you guys hold really huge games compared to what I'm used to)

but regardless, again, this has nothing to do with us here in this game

our job is to hunt scum and lynch them not to chastise people who join games and don't play

 

Lynch me if you must, call me scum, but I would rather lose the next two dozen games I'm in if it gets inactivity out of our games. I can deal with rudeness, poor play, failed gambits, anything and everything else, but signing on to play and then going inactive is maddening. It's rude to the mod, rude to your teammates, and ruins the games for everyone involved. /end rant

I understand your frustration but I don't think you actually believe what you just said

I have played games with people who are actually bad at mafia

and by bad I mean absolutely terrible

bad play can ruin the fun in a game just as much as inactive players

both can be combated to a degree (you can always try to teach bad people better tactics and such) but the train of thought you're heading down leads to elitism and only playing with people you like and/or consider to be "good"

while I understand the temptation I am strongly against such things since if everyone did this it would lead to vastly fewer people playing mafia and the people who do play outside the elitist circles have a hard time getting better since the best way to get better at a game is to play with people better than you

 

and that would be the end of my...I wouldn't call it a rant exactly because I agree with you that the points raised are problems

I guess I'm just saying that what you're saying doesn't matter right now in the context of this game and that you should be wary of drastic solutions (unless cliques/elitism isn't really a problem with you then uhh ignore half of what I just said)

 

Now, if you look back at what I originally said, I don't want either Nyn or Chrissy lynched at this point. To which you said, I basically gave them an out. Saying that they would have no incentive to change. But you neglected to mention that I also said that we shouldn't wait forever either. Should nothing change, then let's be done with them.

well that goes back to my point that we don't need to be done with them if nothing changes

the mod will handle it

 

Also, you keep referring to them "lurking" while I call it "inactivity." Huge difference and neither of them is lurking, as I'm in more than one game with the both of them and it's the exact same thing from them in every game. Enough says this guy.

you're right

they are inactive, lurking has more activity than this

I'll use the correct term in the future

 

i voted nyn svus i didnt wanna bandwagon on chrissy...W00tfor drunk mafia!!!1

you could always hold your vote for the time being like I'm doing

[Leyrann]

Noldor, I have to disagree with the things you say.

 

Firstly, you say that it's scummy to vote inactive players. As Sakaea said too, the Mafia had to be very drunk, in that case.

Second, you say that there is no sense in voting inactive players. There is. Two players (or three, if you count Amega as inactive too) are inactive. If we lynch one, and that one is Mafia, it is very likely the other one (two) is too. If that one is Town, it would be better to do a lynch on someone else.

Third, what you say about "elitism", well, maybe some players are bad, but in my other game (of 16 people), I wouldn't say that anyone was bad. So it is not a high amount. If there are any. And inactive players CAN ruin the game. If two Townies are inactive, it can be the Doc and the Cop. Who says they are more active in there PM's? Would you want to give the Mafia a chance of free kill by letting inactive players, with maybe valuable roles, stay inactive? Wouldn't it be better to frighten them a bit? (not lynch them, of course, unless they stay inactive)

[Leyrann]

It would've been better if I had some white between my points...

 

Sorry, I will have next time.

[Blackhoof]

i believe that Nol has presented a very sound case agaisnt Verb. We dont have much to go on so far but let us try to get an answer out of him...

 

vote verbal

[John E. Kelley]

I have to disagree Hoof. I said it was an un-Verb-like post, but not particularly scummy. And now that I've had time to reread, there wasn't much else to say other than what I posted anyways. Maw said he would lynch anyone without regard to the consequences, would feel no remorse about said lynch, and I called him out on it. Verb said I nailed it, and really, there isn't much you can add to that imo. Posting a ton of filler and fluff just for the sake of filler and fluff is just kinda meh. And I'm not going to call out Verb for not doing just that.

 

And I don't know about Sakaea atm, but I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

[Nolder]

Firstly, you say that it's scummy to vote inactive players. As Sakaea said too, the Mafia had to be very drunk, in that case.

I don't understand what you're saying about Sakaea

she was just saying that she was making a post while drunk not that the mafia were/are drunk

but even putting that aside I still don't understand why me saying that it's scummy to vote inactive players indicates that the mafia are not playing optimally (if that is in fact what you're getting at, if not please correct me because I am very confused)

 

Second, you say that there is no sense in voting inactive players. There is. Two players (or three, if you count Amega as inactive too) are inactive. If we lynch one, and that one is Mafia, it is very likely the other one (two) is too. If that one is Town, it would be better to do a lynch on someone else.

that is a terrible argument

the fact that these players are inactive and have not previously given any input nor conversed with anyone in a meaningful way means that they have no connections to any players including each other

the guilt or innocence of one has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of another, or of anyone for that matter

 

additionally, as has been previously noted, whether the lynched inactive is guilty or innocent no new information can be gathered beyond who was on the lynch but with a lynch on an inactive that's very sketchy information and not to be relied upon since mafia are likely to cut their losses and bus an inactive teammate

 

Third, what you say about "elitism", well, maybe some players are bad, but in my other game (of 16 people), I wouldn't say that anyone was bad. So it is not a high amount. If there are any. And inactive players CAN ruin the game.

I never argued that they don't

 

If two Townies are inactive, it can be the Doc and the Cop. Who says they are more active in there PM's? Would you want to give the Mafia a chance of free kill by letting inactive players, with maybe valuable roles, stay inactive? Wouldn't it be better to frighten them a bit? (not lynch them, of course, unless they stay inactive)

first of all, like I said before

if you inform the inactive (presumed lurker, because if they weren't lurking then they wouldn't see or react to your votes anyway) that you have no intent on lynching them then the threat is removed and they have no incentive to discontinue their behavior

you're shooting your plan in the foot before it even started

 

secondly, again, this is not our job

if they are truly inactive the mod will kill or replace them

if they are lurking as a tactic eventually the mod will prod them into action

we do not need to do anything about someone who is apparently inactive

 

if they were previously talkative and now they've gone quiet or somesuch then I would consider lynching

but at this point none of the inactive players are lurking, they've been inactive basically all game

[Niniel]

I can see your point Nolder. Lynching an inactive player almost never gives good information. And non of them have returned. Red is not usually online on weekends. I say we wait until tomorrow and see if she will replace any of them.

 

That said - it´s so annoying. Like Ishy said - inactive players ruined the towns chances in the Disney Princess game.

 

Ley - you made some weired assumptions there. If one inactive player turns up to be town/mafia that doen´t say anything about other inactive players.

[Leyrann]

Firstly, you say that it's scummy to vote inactive players. As Sakaea said too, the Mafia had to be very drunk, in that case.

I don't understand what you're saying about Sakaea

she was just saying that she was making a post while drunk not that the mafia were/are drunk

but even putting that aside I still don't understand why me saying that it's scummy to vote inactive players indicates that the mafia are not playing optimally (if that is in fact what you're getting at, if not please correct me because I am very confused)

 

Sorry, I've not been very clear...

 

I meant that, because there were two people who had votes, that the Mafia was doing something very weird. Because they didn't just vote one person. And I thought Sakaea meant that too, by saying the mafia was drunk. But maybe I read that wrong.

 

Second, you say that there is no sense in voting inactive players. There is. Two players (or three, if you count Amega as inactive too) are inactive. If we lynch one, and that one is Mafia, it is very likely the other one (two) is too. If that one is Town, it would be better to do a lynch on someone else.

that is a terrible argument

the fact that these players are inactive and have not previously given any input nor conversed with anyone in a meaningful way means that they have no connections to any players including each other

the guilt or innocence of one has no bearing on the guilt or innocence of another, or of anyone for that matter

 

additionally, as has been previously noted, whether the lynched inactive is guilty or innocent no new information can be gathered beyond who was on the lynch but with a lynch on an inactive that's very sketchy information and not to be relied upon since mafia are likely to cut their losses and bus an inactive teammate

 

Again, my fault. I think I wasn't fully awake when I posted it. But what I meant, was that, if one of them was mafia, the mafia would most likely be using this as a tactic, and the chance would be greater the others were too. If not, it was most likely not a mafia tactic, because the numbers would be too small.

 

Third, what you say about "elitism", well, maybe some players are bad, but in my other game (of 16 people), I wouldn't say that anyone was bad. So it is not a high amount. If there are any. And inactive players CAN ruin the game.

I never argued that they don't

 

If two Townies are inactive, it can be the Doc and the Cop. Who says they are more active in there PM's? Would you want to give the Mafia a chance of free kill by letting inactive players, with maybe valuable roles, stay inactive? Wouldn't it be better to frighten them a bit? (not lynch them, of course, unless they stay inactive)

first of all, like I said before

if you inform the inactive (presumed lurker, because if they weren't lurking then they wouldn't see or react to your votes anyway) that you have no intent on lynching them then the threat is removed and they have no incentive to discontinue their behavior

you're shooting your plan in the foot before it even started

 

secondly, again, this is not our job

if they are truly inactive the mod will kill or replace them

if they are lurking as a tactic eventually the mod will prod them into action

we do not need to do anything about someone who is apparently inactive

 

if they were previously talkative and now they've gone quiet or somesuch then I would consider lynching

but at this point none of the inactive players are lurking, they've been inactive basically all game

 

The ones who voted these lurkers (sorry, don't know all the names by heart) said they didn't want to lynch them FOR NOW. Ishy said that at least he would maybe try to get a lynch if they stood inactive. I agree with him that that would be the best thing.

 

Ley - you made some weired assumptions there. If one inactive player turns up to be town/mafia that doen´t say anything about other inactive players.

 

Sorry, Tina. I explained it higher in my post.

[Blackhoof]

Really, mafia rarely use full inactivity as a tactic in my experience. They generally try to blend in by posting a bit but not adding much, if they just stopped posting it would rouse suspicion. that said- it doesnt mean that some inactives arent mafia, just that they arent being all scum-sneaky about it :P

[JenLenaMom]

Ah the lynch inactives debate, almost as fun ad the day one no lynch vote argument, or the meta-gaming as a scum-hunting strategy fight. Nice to see somethings in mafia haven't changed that much.

 

All voting for inactives really proves depends on the speed they show back up with their excuses. I mean ONE mafia member might play the inactive as a way to try to float thru the game but not all of them, too dangerous that they won't be able to control or influence lynchings. So if the mafia inactive starts getting votes they usually show back up fairly quickly as soon as a teammate alerts them. I should call this lurking not outright inactivity I guess, but we don't really know if the player is lurky or inactive unless you go start tracking DM activity everywhere else.

 

It's early and ive had no caffiene I hope that makes as much sense as it did in my head.

 

Anyway since it's the weekend I'm reluctant to call out the inactives until monday so they have a legitimate shot at answer the charges against them withou coming back to being L-1 or 2.

[Sakaea]

Yes, I was drunk last night...

 

I don't have much to add atm, too early to think...but I will need to re-read what Leyrann said when I'm more awake.

[Nolder]

Yes, I was drunk last night...

 

I don't have much to add atm, too early to think...but I will need to re-read what Leyrann said when I'm more awake.

what were you drinking?

 

also I may or may not reply to you later Ley

for the moment I am not in the mood but I'm sure I have something to say if I'd stop being lazy lol