Let's talk about Taim, Baby

[baalsmistress]

Dreadlords was a general term for shadow aligned channellers during the Trolloc wars. The chosen/forsaken was a term for shadow aligned channelers during the Age of Legends and derives from the renumciation of their oaths as Aes Sedai (not oath rod bound oaths in the AoL of course).

 

The term dreadlord was born because the channellers of the trolloc war era did not wish to imply they were on the same level as the 13 remaining chosen bound in the bore by LTT. Since the same AoL/3rd age predjudice still exists among the forsaken and the DO,it seems likely that the shadow aligned channelers with the exception of the residual AoL chosen will claim the title dreadlord.

 

There appears to be little doubt that Taim is converting male channelers to the shadow, either voluntarially or forcibly. We know from Verin's tea-time chat with Egwene that once you swear to the shadow, it is very hard, vvery hard indeed to rescind those oaths. Given the Ashaman have travelling, and a dreamspike permits those authorised to do so to travel within it's perimeter of effect, it's easily possible for the BT to be the primary base for the dreadlords, and they could travel from there to wherever needed to support operations and then return.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Just so you know, I am now boycotting the AMOL forum so that I don't keep getting that stupid song stuck in my head.

Ok, I must have missed it because I have no idea what song ur taking about.

[nool]

Just so you know, I am now boycotting the AMOL forum so that I don't keep getting that stupid song stuck in my head.

Ok, I must have missed it because I have no idea what song ur taking about.

Guess you have to be of a certain age to spot it straight away ...

 

Salt N Pepa, Let's Talk About Sex:

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Bel'al is balefired drekka, he's not coming back.

 

Didnt RJ say that the Dark One could still catch a soul if the balefire was really weak? Moiraine balefire fits that bill.

 

Not that I think Bel'al is back, just acknowledging the possibility.

[baalsmistress]

Balefire burns threads out of the pattern. The strength of the balefire determines how far back in time the thread is burned.

[Suttree]

Bel'al is balefired drekka, he's not coming back.

 

Didnt RJ say that the Dark One could still catch a soul if the balefire was really weak? Moiraine balefire fits that bill.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

I doubt Moiraine's balefire fits the bill unless she consciously wove a small amount however.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I doubt Moiraine's balefire fits the bill unless she consciously wove a small amount however.

 

That was one of the $64 questions for a very long time. I believe we have now had clarification from either Sanderson or Charleston that Bel'al is indeed gone forever.

[OptimusPrime]

 

I doubt Moiraine's balefire fits the bill unless she consciously wove a small amount however.

 

That was one of the $64 questions for a very long time. I believe we have now had clarification from either Sanderson or Charleston that Bel'al is indeed gone forever.

 

Ah, wasnt aware it had been written off.

 

Not that I thought Taim WAS Bel'al. Was just humoring the idea of him not being Moridin.

 

Anyway BOB. Its been a long time! Welcome back.

[mbuehner]

I don't have Winters Heart in front of me, but can anybody confirm that the renegade Asha'man were given orders to go after Rand in 3 separate meetings? That seems pretty astonishing. Could it be that Moridin was present with either Demandred or Taim and simply gave his own twist on the orders (i remember 'kill him if you must', which implies he was reacting to somebody elses orders, but i cant recall the rest of the context).

 

Regardless- if you accepted the doubling of orders by Taim and Demandred as evidence against that theory, you really have to take the doubling of orders by Taim and Moridin in the same light (all of this before RJ actively killed the taimandred theory in real life of course). I didn't consider that definitive (forsaken being as conniving and untrusting as they are) but it was a valid piece of evidence to consider. I think there is better evidence against Moridin/Taim, mainly that their mannerisms are nothing alike (Taim doesn't carry rats around with him or otherwise seem off his nut, nor does Ishamael seem like he would worry about something as trivial as an ashaman badge that Taim hated) and Ishmael was never indicated to be some amazing actor or infiltrator.

 

I do like the Taim as Ishamaels protege idea. And honestly i would be anything but shocked if Taimandred came back from the abyss as the ultimate twist on a blown twist. I think we could all forgive RJ for the deception.

[Suttree]

I don't have Winters Heart in front of me, but can anybody confirm that the renegade Asha'man were given orders to go after Rand in 3 separate meetings? That seems pretty astonishing.

 

WH Ch. 22

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance;he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions." The man said he was one of the Chosen, and no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al'Thor's belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental and not really necessary.

[mbuehner]

Thanks Suttree!

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't have Winters Heart in front of me, but can anybody confirm that the renegade Asha'man were given orders to go after Rand in 3 separate meetings? That seems pretty astonishing.

 

WH Ch. 22

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance;he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions." The man said he was one of the Chosen, and no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al'Thor's belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental and not really necessary.

 

First, thanks Drekka. Sometimes life takes precedence. If the present guesses about when A Memory of Light will actually be on the shelves is correct I expect to be gone for an extended period again.

 

The quote above has always been troubling. Demandred I can almost understand. Moridin I can understand. Taim has always been the puzzle.

 

One thing we do know is that somebody has been impersonating Sammael perfectly enough that the attack on the Manor was both ordered and carried out. I've always liked Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva for that. Cyndane's little bombshell about Rand planning to cleanse saidin totally unnerved him and he was pretty desperate to see to it that the cleansing didn't happen.

 

I think the order from Moridin was genuine. I think the other two were Osan'gar playing "Let's Pretend."

 

The reason I don't think Demandred was for real is that he hates LTT more than anyone else. I think he'd want to torture Rand emotionally first and then kill him personally. Probably by capturing Elayne and making LTT watch him destroy her first. That one smells funny to me.

 

When it comes to Taim and the timing for his order I've got nothing. That order would have been before Cyndane's announcement, maybe as early as Lord of Chaos. Possibly even before Dumai's Wells. So why? At that point, everybody Dark but Shaidar Haran was on-board with "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule." Other than maybe Dashiva, who would have had a personal grudge since Rand had already killed him once. AgaIn, *maybe* "Let's Pretend."

[OptimusPrime]

I don't have Winters Heart in front of me, but can anybody confirm that the renegade Asha'man were given orders to go after Rand in 3 separate meetings? That seems pretty astonishing. Could it be that Moridin was present with either Demandred or Taim and simply gave his own twist on the orders (i remember 'kill him if you must', which implies he was reacting to somebody elses orders, but i cant recall the rest of the context).

 

First, Taim said kill him, and they failed.

 

Then, Demandred said kill him, and dont let the M'Hael find out if you fail.

 

Then, later, Moridin says kill him if you must but I want his trinkets.

 

Why does Demandred seem wary of TAIM of all people? Surely he'd be more wary of Moridin, considering Moridin gave the order not to harm Rand to the Chosen himself. Later on Graendal knows Moridin has Ashaman access, Id be inclined to think Demandred knew as well seeing as Demandred has personal involvement in the Black Tower with Kisman and co.

 

This is why I think the whole thing is fishy. Demandred being wary of Taim? Why would he be wary of Moridins apprentice, when hes giving the same order as said apprentice? Doesnt smell right.

 

In my oppinion its because Moridin is playing mind games with the Darkfriend Ashaman. If we want to talk about contradicting orders between Moridin and Taim again, sure, but its pointless, because Moridin has already just contradicted himself. He says to the Chosen not to harm Rand, then tells Kisman to kill him if he must. In other words, Moridin is deliberately telling the DF Ashaman what he thinks they need to hear to get the job done-first he poses as Taim and says kill Rand (which, as Moridin knows better than anyone, will not be successful) then later, he says get the Choeden Kal off Rand, he might drop the key in a fight, so attack him, but the second time he appears as Moridin so as to not look like a douche for contradicting himself.

[mbuehner]

Good points here. Demandred's order being far out of character really hits home- didn't he tell his fellow Forsaken that LTT was his to kill, and he'd kill anybody that beat him to it? Either he expected Kisman and company to fail or it wasn't really Demandred.

 

Seems to me that somebody has a habit of impersonating the chosen. Taim? Would make sense since he doesn't have the name recognition of a forsaken even if he has been marked as such. Maybe he wanted to make sure his assassins didnt get diverted by another forsaken. That might also explain the secrecy- dont tell anybody i talked to you, not even Taim. If they blabbed back to Taim, he'd know they were unreliable (or loyal depending on your pov i guess). Two Taim's and a Moridin order?

 

But what's really coalescing in my mind is Be'lal. Do we have active confirmation that he is toast? RJ definitely left open the window that a small amount of balefire might allow the DO to snatch a soul back in time. And note the Dark One got frustrated that he couldn't bring Rahvin back but never mentioned Be'lal. Odd that.

He was known as the netweaver and a manipulator. He'd want Rand dead but wouldn't care much who killed him. He might be ignorant enough to think conventional means like a trolloc army or Asha'man assassins could work. He wouldn't want word getting around that he's impersonating yet another forsaken. And maybe SH's point to Graendal that there was 'another' that had been tasked with being the one Rand thought was dead but wasn't referred to Be'lal and not to Lanfear... who btw immediately revealed to Rand she was alive. Of course it would appear even Moridin might not know about him (given he revealed somebody impersonating Sammael). Maybe Be'lal is the Dark Ones ultimate failsafe against even Moridin? Anyway, guess i should bother to find our if RJ definitively ruled out Be'lal before posting all this, but all in good fun right?

[OptimusPrime]

He was known as the netweaver and a manipulator. He'd want Rand dead but wouldn't care much who killed him. He might be ignorant enough to think conventional means like a trolloc army or Asha'man assassins could work. He wouldn't want word getting around that he's impersonating yet another forsaken. And maybe SH's point to Graendal that there was 'another' that had been tasked with being the one Rand thought was dead but wasn't referred to Be'lal and not to Lanfear... who btw immediately revealed to Rand she was alive. Of course it would appear even Moridin might not know about him (given he revealed somebody impersonating Sammael). Maybe Be'lal is the Dark Ones ultimate failsafe against even Moridin? Anyway, guess i should bother to find our if RJ definitively ruled out Be'lal before posting all this, but all in good fun right?

 

Exactly! Passes the time, which is why I jump into every convo involving Taim, haha.

 

I dont believe RJ ever wrote off Bel'al, but I still doubt it. The thing that gets me about Taim is, from the moment he appeared he felt like he knew Rand better than he should. If Bel'al was a manipulator it explains the Bashere incedent as much as it would if he was Moridin.

 

Would the Dark One raise Bel'al if he could? I think he would, hes given every one of them a second chance when it was possible. Having said all this though, I dont think Bel'al got brought back. Taim being Moridin is just too convincing in my mind.

[FarShainMael]

Moiraine had not stopped or slowed while he spoke. She was no more than thirty paces from him when he moved his hand, and she raised both of hers as well.

 

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken’s face, and he had time to scream “No!” Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai’s hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be’lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.

 

Well, it certainly sounds like balefire..

 

But then Ba'alzamon appears, and tries to take Rand's soul. We know that Ba'alzamon is not actually the Dark One, but he must have permission from his master to use that name, I would have thought. I suspect that he was very strongly linked to the Dark One - he'd been using the TP a lot, for one thing. (Perhaps he was the forerunner of SH.) Also, he was trying to take the Dragonsoul. I think the DO would have been watching that very closely indeed; so closely that It would be immediately aware of Be'lal's death, and was able to grab his own soul before the tiny balefire 'window of opportunity' closed.

 

Just a thought..

[clu7ch]

I like the thought, because thats original. But given what we know of balefire's nature - I'd be rather aggravated if this was in deed the case, and you could cheat perma-banning by having a buddy pop a quick battle-rez. Unless of course this has major ramifications in the last book where in which case Rand uses this method to come back.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Well, it certainly sounds like balefire..

 

But then Ba'alzamon appears, and tries to take Rand's soul. We know that Ba'alzamon is not actually the Dark One, but he must have permission from his master to use that name, I would have thought. I suspect that he was very strongly linked to the Dark One - he'd been using the TP a lot, for one thing. (Perhaps he was the forerunner of SH.) Also, he was trying to take the Dragonsoul. I think the DO would have been watching that very closely indeed; so closely that It would be immediately aware of Be'lal's death, and was able to grab his own soul before the tiny balefire 'window of opportunity' closed.

 

Just a thought..

 

It IS balefire. And, by Moiraine's own admission she only has the strength to burn someone "a few seconds" into the past. But, even if the Dark One had been focused entirely on what was happening in Tear, those "few seconds" may have exceeded his reach. Bel'al had already been dead for some time before Moiraine cast the balefire, and even the DO could not foresee her doing that.

[FarShainMael]

Be'lal had only been dead for those 'few seconds'.

[FarShainMael]

I like the thought, because thats original. But given what we know of balefire's nature - I'd be rather aggravated if this was in deed the case, and you could cheat perma-banning by having a buddy pop a quick battle-rez. Unless of course this has major ramifications in the last book where in which case Rand uses this method to come back.

 

And all of the Dark One's attention is focussed on Rand Sedai now. (ToM13)

[mbuehner]

 

Well, it certainly sounds like balefire..

 

But then Ba'alzamon appears, and tries to take Rand's soul. We know that Ba'alzamon is not actually the Dark One, but he must have permission from his master to use that name, I would have thought. I suspect that he was very strongly linked to the Dark One - he'd been using the TP a lot, for one thing. (Perhaps he was the forerunner of SH.) Also, he was trying to take the Dragonsoul. I think the DO would have been watching that very closely indeed; so closely that It would be immediately aware of Be'lal's death, and was able to grab his own soul before the tiny balefire 'window of opportunity' closed.

 

Just a thought..

 

It IS balefire. And, by Moiraine's own admission she only has the strength to burn someone "a few seconds" into the past. But, even if the Dark One had been focused entirely on what was happening in Tear, those "few seconds" may have exceeded his reach. Bel'al had already been dead for some time before Moiraine cast the balefire, and even the DO could not foresee her doing that.

 

Agreed, philosophically. But realistically I'm surprised RJ opened up that window of possibility by allowing that the DO could potentially pull someone back after being balefired (before being balefired?) instead of drawing that bright line. Moreover, apparently Ishmael was watching all of this go down, waiting for his moment (embracing the TP? seems likely), so its a fair argument that the Dark One had his attention on that place at that time, and we've probably never seen a weaker stream of balefire used in the series. IE- if somebody was going to be transmigrated from balefire, it would have been that, because its hard to envision a set of circumstances more conducive to those rules (very weak balefire, DO paying attention somehow).

 

That being said its a pretty thin reed. I only raise the question because RJ created that curious loophole when a more definitive rule would have seemed appropriate (I assume RJ got tired of fending off 'is X going to be back' questions, its nice to have a perma-death possibility). Then again, maybe he just enjoyed throwing out a little red meat to get people like us in a tizzy.

[clu7ch]

I can't think of balefire in terms of strength and weakness. a .22 cartridge is absolutely as fatal as a .50cal (lets not get into range, wind and whatnot, just go with the metaphor) Balefire is Balefire. I kinda think you die, forever with it. The strength of Balefire could probably only be tantamount to the size of the beam, such as my bullet metaphor.

[mbuehner]

I can't think of balefire in terms of strength and weakness. a .22 cartridge is absolutely as fatal as a .50cal (lets not get into range, wind and whatnot, just go with the metaphor) Balefire is Balefire. I kinda think you die, forever with it. The strength of Balefire could probably only be tantamount to the size of the beam, such as my bullet metaphor.

 

Die, yes. The question is if the DO can grab your soul on your way out and transmigrate you. Jordan has directly said that if the time is short enough (hence the balefire weak enough), its possible. Hence the speculation.

 

You're hitting my point though- why would Jordan make it like that if he wasn't going to use that loophole at some point?

[FarShainMael]

I can't think of balefire in terms of strength and weakness. a .22 cartridge is absolutely as fatal as a .50cal (lets not get into range, wind and whatnot, just go with the metaphor) Balefire is Balefire. I kinda think you die, forever with it. The strength of Balefire could probably only be tantamount to the size of the beam, such as my bullet metaphor.

 

Die, yes. The question is if the DO can grab your soul on your way out and transmigrate you. Jordan has directly said that if the time is short enough (hence the balefire weak enough), its possible. Hence the speculation.

 

You're hitting my point though- why would Jordan make it like that if he wasn't going to use that loophole at some point?

 

That is my feeling also.

[OptimusPrime]

You're hitting my point though- why would Jordan make it like that if he wasn't going to use that loophole at some point?

 

To make us squirm. Why else?