Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

[Sabio]

Perin, simple.  He can now enter and leave TAR when he wants to.  He doesn't need to sleep or channel.  He fought and defeated Slayer, who is probably the most skilled in TAR as anybody.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Perin, simple. He can now enter and leave TAR when he wants to. He doesn't need to sleep or channel. He fought and defeated Slayer, who is probably the most skilled in TAR as anybody.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Don't get me wrong, in reality I think it's a coin toss as to who would win such a fight....but I don't think their encounter in TAR counts much... Egwene got her ass handed back to her on a platter because she wrongly assumed that Perrin knew nothing of TAR, similar to what happened to Amys when she tried to embarrass Egwene on their first meeting on TAR...never underestimate your opponent...I was hypothetically speaking of a situation where each has a rough idea of what the other can do.

[Seldkam]

In many fights muscle memory and instincts is what matters most. Egwene can do arguably more things than Perrin? However there's very little that she can do to fully incapacitate him.

 

Perrin can snap away and wait, I.e. teleporting or if it's the "you are stupid" Egwene trick , P can just leave TAR itself.

 

Even then I don't think the you are stupid trick would work very well. All of Perrins training is literally about the mind. Especially ofc the nightmares.

 

Not sure why people think P can't manipulate TAR that well either, in the battle with Slayer he dealt with and changed far more environments than Egwene has ever even seen

[dexterryu]

In many fights muscle memory and instincts is what matters most. Egwene can do arguably more things than Perrin? However there's very little that she can do to fully incapacitate him.

 

Perrin can snap away and wait, I.e. teleporting or if it's the "you are stupid" Egwene trick , P can just leave TAR itself.

 

Even then I don't think the you are stupid trick would work very well. All of Perrins training is literally about the mind. Especially ofc the nightmares.

 

Not sure why people think P can't manipulate TAR that well either, in the battle with Slayer he dealt with and changed far more environments than Egwene has ever even seen

 

Very good post. Having been in fights in my life (both sports/mma and the real deal), instincts carry the day.

 

It's also important to consider the types of training they each received. Perrin was instructed by a being of TAR in Hopper and in that training was taught to face head on the things that a lot of the wise ones just said "This is evil, don't do it" or "This is dangerous, don't do it." It's not really known if they brought her into things like nightmares during her training at any point.

 

Egwene was trained on much more practical things like finding/visiting the dreams of others, interpreting her dreams. 

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Egwene was trained in nightmares very on...Amy's caught her in TAR when she wasn't supposed to be there and created one for her, holding her in the dream and shielding her (Apparently if you can channel, embracing the Source gives you more ability to enforce your will, which was why Egwene was able to outdo Amy's on their first meeting.) I still think it's a coin toss, Egwene would be able to enter the dream physically without channeling if she knew it was possible, and they both defeated people who were masters of TAR, and amazed even the experts....Maybe they could state each other down the way Eggs and Ms. Messy did and see whose brains fry first....

[dexterryu]

Egwene was trained in nightmares very on...Amy's caught her in TAR when she wasn't supposed to be there and created one for her, holding her in the dream and shielding her (Apparently if you can channel, embracing the Source gives you more ability to enforce your will, which was why Egwene was able to outdo Amy's on their first meeting.) I still think it's a coin toss, Egwene would be able to enter the dream physically without channeling if she knew it was possible, and they both defeated people who were masters of TAR, and amazed even the experts....Maybe they could state each other down the way Eggs and Ms. Messy did and see whose brains fry first....

 

As far as nightmares go, she was caught, punished, but did not defeat the nightmare like what Hopper had Perrin doing. Amys just used it as an example to illustrate the dangers of TAR... again more of "Don't do this, it's evil/dangerous".

 

Let's put it this way. If Perrin and Egwene had a contest on who could write the better guide to TAR I'd want to read Egwene's. But if I had to face one or the other in TAR I'd be much more afraid of Perrin.

 

None of us are saying that Egwene is bad at TAR. We are just saying she's not as instinctive there as compared with Perrin. Their encounter in TAR is a good example. Forget the fact that she was caught off guard by Perrin's knowledge and ability for a moment. Perrin defeated her weaves and the Balefire instantly and instinctively. He didn't have to focus himself to use his strength of will... He does it almost without effort. Compare this to Egwene vs Mesaana. Mesaana captures Egwene with the A'dam and it takes Egwene a bit to remember that the A'dam isn't real and dismiss it. 

None of us are saying that Egwene is bad at TAR. We are just saying she's not as instinctive there as compared with Perrin.

[jack of shadows]

@dexterryu,

 

just imagine a three-way fight in tel'aran'rhiod between rand-perrin-egwene,

would you hazard a guess about the outcome ?

[dexterryu]

@dexterryu,

 

just imagine a three-way fight in tel'aran'rhiod between rand-perrin-egwene,

would you hazard a guess about the outcome ?

 

I would expect Perrin to come out on top in that fight. I'd say Egwene would take 2nd, and Rand losing to both.

[Sabio]

Are we talking pre LTT memories Rand or post?  Pre memory Rand would get trashed because everything he did was sort of a guess and instinct.  With LTT memories who knows what he can do.

 

For me I think Perin has the advantage for three reasons:

1. He can enter and leave at will, Egwene needs to channel.

2. I think his fights against Slayer better prepared him for a TAR fight.  Egwene might have more knowledge about TAR. 

3.  We saw in her fight in TAr and even at the last battle she is a tkle charge attack type.  Where you saw the wise ones blend into walls and such for ambushes.  I just think Egwene's mindset makes her easier to predict in a fight.

[dexterryu]

Are we talking pre LTT memories Rand or post?  Pre memory Rand would get trashed because everything he did was sort of a guess and instinct.  With LTT memories who knows what he can do.

 

For me I think Perin has the advantage for three reasons:

1. He can enter and leave at will, Egwene needs to channel.

2. I think his fights against Slayer better prepared him for a TAR fight.  Egwene might have more knowledge about TAR. 

3.  We saw in her fight in TAr and even at the last battle she is a tkle charge attack type.  Where you saw the wise ones blend into walls and such for ambushes.  I just think Egwene's mindset makes her easier to predict in a fight.

 

As far as Rand goes, it appears that he can only enter TAR in the flesh which makes it less likely that he would be anywhere near as skilled as either even with LTT memories. So unless he's bringing Calandor with him (as he did at the end of TDR) to completely brute force either of them I don't see him winning.

 

As far as we know, only a few of the Forsaken could enter the dream by dreaming. Those being Lanfear and Moghedian. Ishy definitely used TAR but it was never apparent if he was there in the flesh or dream. 

[Kesiera_Sedai]

True, but they each have strengths to counter each other's weaknesses, and importantly, they both have the ability to mimic others through observation....Rand would be toast, he's not a dream Walker like Egwene or Perrin, not inborn talent, some of the things they can do wouldn't even be possible for him without the OP, which is an insurmountable weakness. Remember Nyneave's weak spot in TAR? Certain things she couldn't do in TAR without being taught (like teleportation through thought)even though Elayne picked up on the trick instantly after seeing Egwene do it once...

[jack of shadows]

let's make it more complicated,i'm talking about rand post last battle,

with the ability to manipulate reality in the real world,so what would 

hapen in a fight between rand-perrin-egwene in tel'aran'rhiod?

[Sabio]

As far as we know only Slayer and Perin can enter TAR at will without the need to channel.  Another thing to consider is being there in the flesh makes one stronger. 

 

I won't say Rand would be toast because we have no idea how good LTT was.  I think it was mentioned LTT wasn't the best in TAR, but those memories still might give him an advantage.  I think manipulating Ishy's dreamshard shows he is at least no pushover. 

[Malkeri tourist]

Education vs intellect

[Kesiera_Sedai]

let's make it more complicated,i'm talking about rand post last battle,

with the ability to manipulate reality in the real world,so what would

hapen in a fight between rand-perrin-egwene in tel'aran'rhiod?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I don't think Rand's ability to manipulate the real world would help here....Changes made to the real world are permanent, this isn't so in TAR..

[Malkeri tourist]

Egwene's knowledge of the nuances and far reaching abilities of the dream world clearly surpass Perrins. Perrins animalistic primal abilities make him the superior combatant.

They are two sides of the same coin. Egwene destroyed the mind of one of the Forsaken through sheer strength of will. Perrin killed slayer (arguably the world of dreams dark one) with his own hands, guile and instinct.

Perrin deflected balefire that would've obliviated Egwene because he truly understood the dream and dismissed all preconceived notions of its bounds to reality because he always knew it wasn't.

If Egwene hadn't died at 22 years old who knows, but she did.

In their lifetimes together Perrin clearly outmatched her in the world of dreams in combat, alteration and acclimation.

Egwene surpassed him in metaphysical projection and location via necessity.

If BS went totally of the rails and had them fight each other Perrin would be the clear winner.

 

RIP Egwene. Lost to soon.

[jack of shadows]

when egwene died she was barely 20,not 22.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

At the end of the series - assuming Egwene lived - Perrin was stronger.

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod is more a home of wolves than humans. Wolves go there when they die, humans don't - excepting the HotH.

 

It is more natural for wolves, and thus wolfbrothers and sisters. Perrin could accomplish more than Egwene ever could, not necessarily because he is smarter - Egwene was a quick learner and more had ingenuity - but for the simple fact that - because of his wolf nature, his can achieve much greater symbiosis and have a greater understanding of T'a'R.

 

The fact that he has some kind of 'dual soul', part wolf part human, that allows him to jump from T'a'R to the real world in an instant is evidence that his wolf-powers give him greater ability in the Dream. For all we know it may be the first of many advantages. (Before anyone says the obvious: normal humans cannot learn this. It is an effect of having two souls, or two parts of a soul. Slayer because he was literally two souls, Perrin because he had half wolf half human.)

 

That said, while Perrin would be more of a master of T'a'R overall, there would be areas where Egwene may indeed do better. I wouldn't say Perrin would be greater than her in EVERY aspect, just overall.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I got the impression that he was basically a dream Walker, and his thing with wolves was similar to the bond with who channel and cats...wondering if that could be why Aes Sedai were convinced he could channel...and too we don't know the Aiel Wise Women didnt know how to go to dream physically, just that there things they didnt or wouldn't show/teach Egwene about, only to say they were evil.

[Sabio]

I'm sure they knew how, after all didn't take much for Egwene to figure it out.

[Orderofolde]

 

At the end of the series - assuming Egwene lived - Perrin was stronger.

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod is more a home of wolves than humans. Wolves go there when they die, humans don't - excepting the HotH.

 

It is more natural for wolves, and thus wolfbrothers and sisters. Perrin could accomplish more than Egwene ever could, not necessarily because he is smarter - Egwene was a quick learner and more had ingenuity - but for the simple fact that - because of his wolf nature, his can achieve much greater symbiosis and have a greater understanding of T'a'R.

 

The fact that he has some kind of 'dual soul', part wolf part human, that allows him to jump from T'a'R to the real world in an instant is evidence that his wolf-powers give him greater ability in the Dream. For all we know it may be the first of many advantages. (Before anyone says the obvious: normal humans cannot learn this. It is an effect of having two souls, or two parts of a soul. Slayer because he was literally two souls, Perrin because he had half wolf half human.)

 

That said, while Perrin would be more of a master of T'a'R overall, there would be areas where Egwene may indeed do better. I wouldn't say Perrin would be greater than her in EVERY aspect, just overall.

 

Exactly.  Perrin was hands down better in the dream but Egwene was a quick learner.  Perrin and the Wise Ones, especially at the Battle of the White Tower in T'A'R opened her eyes to think outside the box.  It was that which made her able to defeat Messana.  While Perrin unknowingly created the windows that showed posibilities of the future, he wasn't a dreamer in the dreamer sense.  That award goes to Egwene.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

 

At the end of the series - assuming Egwene lived - Perrin was stronger.

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod is more a home of wolves than humans. Wolves go there when they die, humans don't - excepting the HotH.

 

It is more natural for wolves, and thus wolfbrothers and sisters. Perrin could accomplish more than Egwene ever could, not necessarily because he is smarter - Egwene was a quick learner and more had ingenuity - but for the simple fact that - because of his wolf nature, his can achieve much greater symbiosis and have a greater understanding of T'a'R.

 

The fact that he has some kind of 'dual soul', part wolf part human, that allows him to jump from T'a'R to the real world in an instant is evidence that his wolf-powers give him greater ability in the Dream. For all we know it may be the first of many advantages. (Before anyone says the obvious: normal humans cannot learn this. It is an effect of having two souls, or two parts of a soul. Slayer because he was literally two souls, Perrin because he had half wolf half human.)

 

That said, while Perrin would be more of a master of T'a'R overall, there would be areas where Egwene may indeed do better. I wouldn't say Perrin would be greater than her in EVERY aspect, just overall.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

You have to remember too that we don't really know what each one's ultimate potential is, and that though each knows things the other doesn't, but part of Perrin's skill is his ability to mimic things he sees the others do. This can be used against him too, because he doesn't really understand the mechanics of what he's doing, but the sheer force of his will may help that....In the end, though, Egwene will always have one advantage over him, the ability to channel. One can argue that weaves have no effect on Perrin, but that's not true. He could see the balefire and DEFLECTED it, he didn't destroy it. He can't see or feel weaves and Moghedien said in FoS that there weaves that only worked in TAR but we're permanent, i.e. stayed that way when u woke. Also, Egwene discovered at during her fight with Mesaana that it was actually easier to do certain things if u channeled instead of just using your will....Could Perrin fight off a Dreamer with the ability to channel in TAR? The Slayer couldn't channel, and Lanfear, who was actually the one who told Perrin how to go to TAR in the in the flesh, that this was the one wish TAR couldn't grant, to give someone the ability to channel even for the duration of a dream, it's not about the body, it's the soul.