Using the True Power to seal the Bore

[Never]

Hey.

 

I got to thinking today, that what if what Rand needs to do is to close the Bore with the True Power. The Dark One's own touch would then backlash into his own power.

 

It seemed pretty obvious when I thought of it, so I figure it would be a pretty old theory by now.

[Luckers]

It's been suggested before, but the main issue is that channeling the True Power requires the Dark One's direct permission, and its unlikely that the Dark One would give permission for that.

 

Of course we don't know for sure what's going on with Rand's previous channeling of the True Power--it seems very likely the Dark One did it to taint Rand, and to drive him into a darker state, but the exact interaction of permission has been something Brandon's been cautious about speaking of.

 

Still, I reguard it as unlikely myself.

[francy]

I thought about that too, when Rand first touched the TP.

 

But I agree now that it won't be the TP, but Saidin and Saidar being wielded together that will seal the bore. The True Power would be cut off from Rand as soon as the DO understood Rand's intention, if the DO did allow Rand access again...

 

I doubt that Rand will be able to channel the True Power again. The DO's scheme didn't work, Rand came back from the brink on the side of the Light, rather than the Dark.

 

Yay Rand!

 

:-)

[Never]

But it has been determined that Rand does still have the ability, isn't that so?

 

Also, can we be sure that Rand's TP-use doesn't come from his link with Moridin/do we know the exact nature of the process in which a person is allowed access to the TP? Or the Dark One's reaction time?

 

I'm thinking, Rand breaks once again, or dies and is resurrected by the Dark One, transmigrated into another body or whatever. The DO thinks him a servant of the dark, but Rand suddenly uses the TP to slam the prison shut.

[Lacanos]

But it has been determined that Rand does still have the ability, isn't that so?

No, it hasn't. It's been theorised, but to be clear no-one knows whether Rand still has access to the TP. Various people read the mention in ToM in different ways, some believe it implies he no longer has access, some think it merely refers to his state of mind and he still could use the TP.

 

I think the fundamental problem with this idea is that the TP is described by LT in tGS as being the essence, if you will, of the Dark One. The exact quote is "It is HIM"; thereby suggesting the power is actually "channeling" the Dark One in some way. It's almost certain the DO has a great enough degree of control over this power to prevent it being used to seal him away, whether it be withdrawing access or simply over-ruling the use of his power.

 

It's like trying to tie a very strong man up with his own arms. It's pretty much impossible to begin with, and he's strong enough to make it impossible.

[Never]

Ah, I see. Assuming Rand still has access to TP though, he wouldn't exactly have to bind the Dark One. If he touched the Dark One directly with the TP, as LTT did with Saidin, the backlash would perhaps affect the Dark One's own power. The result could in such a case be very interesting.

[Never]

the exact interaction of permission has been something Brandon's been cautious about speaking of.

 

 

Now, you probably know Brandon's approach to these matters much better than I do, so I want to ask; couldn't this suggest that there is in fact something very important regarding the TP to be discovered in aMoL?

[Luckers]

Brandon was similarily resistant about confirming Cyndane was Lanfear, despite the Winters Heart making it clear. It very well could mean absolutely nothing.

[Never]

Ah, I see.

 

I checked through your FaQ, but I can't seem to find any theories as to exactly how Rand is to seal the bore. Are there any prominent theories on the subject out there? I can't remember reading any, but it would seem one of the hottest topics to discuss while awaiting the book in which the event that has been awaited since book one will occur.

[Xcorpyo001]

But it has been determined that Rand does still have the ability, isn't that so?

No, it hasn't. It's been theorised, but to be clear no-one knows whether Rand still has access to the TP. Various people read the mention in ToM in different ways, some believe it implies he no longer has access, some think it merely refers to his state of mind and he still could use the TP.

 

I think the fundamental problem with this idea is that the TP is described by LT in tGS as being the essence, if you will, of the Dark One. The exact quote is "It is HIM"; thereby suggesting the power is actually "channeling" the Dark One in some way. It's almost certain the DO has a great enough degree of control over this power to prevent it being used to seal him away, whether it be withdrawing access or simply over-ruling the use of his power.

 

It's like trying to tie a very strong man up with his own arms. It's pretty much impossible to begin with, and he's strong enough to make it impossible.

 

 

 

“You don’t know how close you came to doom,” Rand said softly. “If I had come to you but a short

time earlier, I’d have returned those slaps with balefire.”

“Inside the Guardian?” Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

“The Guardian blocks the One Power,” Rand whispered. “The One Power only.”

He was also pretty sure he can just walk out of the Wt even if he was shielded by more than 40 AS.

 

Rand seems to think he can use it. Actually, he seems sure of it, so he must still feel it just out of his reach. I don't think Moridin realized that his link with Rand will let the later use his precious gift from the DO, and since he is using Moridin like some sort of buffer(he used the TP, but doesn't have those black dots in his eyes), he doesn't have the effects of its use.

 

But if he will use the TP again, maybe Moridin will realize the truth and the DO will cut Rand off, even if he has to cut Moridin as well(so even if Moridin knows about it, he won't be crazy enough to tell the DO-which proved before that he doesn't knows everything).

 

So if Rand keeps this secret(and the AS/Chosen/other users of OP don't force him to use it before the LB), he may have a short window to use it in the Last Battle, before the DO will realize what happened and negate him access.

And maybe even then he can wrestle a little portion of that power and use it regardless of the DO's will.

[Lacanos]

But it has been determined that Rand does still have the ability, isn't that so?

No, it hasn't. It's been theorised, but to be clear no-one knows whether Rand still has access to the TP. Various people read the mention in ToM in different ways, some believe it implies he no longer has access, some think it merely refers to his state of mind and he still could use the TP.

 

I think the fundamental problem with this idea is that the TP is described by LT in tGS as being the essence, if you will, of the Dark One. The exact quote is "It is HIM"; thereby suggesting the power is actually "channeling" the Dark One in some way. It's almost certain the DO has a great enough degree of control over this power to prevent it being used to seal him away, whether it be withdrawing access or simply over-ruling the use of his power.

 

It's like trying to tie a very strong man up with his own arms. It's pretty much impossible to begin with, and he's strong enough to make it impossible.

 

 

 

“You don’t know how close you came to doom,” Rand said softly. “If I had come to you but a short

time earlier, I’d have returned those slaps with balefire.”

“Inside the Guardian?” Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

“The Guardian blocks the One Power,” Rand whispered. “The One Power only.”

He was also pretty sure he can just walk out of the Wt even if he was shielded by more than 40 AS.

 

Rand seems to think he can use it. Actually, he seems sure of it, so he must still feel it just out of his reach. I don't think Moridin realized that his link with Rand will let the later use his precious gift from the DO, and since he is using Moridin like some sort of buffer(he used the TP, but doesn't have those black dots in his eyes), he doesn't have the effects of its use.

 

But if he will use the TP again, maybe Moridin will realize the truth and the DO will cut Rand off, even if he has to cut Moridin as well(so even if Moridin knows about it, he won't be crazy enough to tell the DO-which proved before that he doesn't knows everything).

 

So if Rand keeps this secret(and the AS/Chosen/other users of OP don't force him to use it before the LB), he may have a short window to use it in the Last Battle, before the DO will realize what happened and negate him access.

And maybe even then he can wrestle a little portion of that power and use it regardless of the DO's will.

 

I've seen this argument before, and it stills fails to convince me. I suggest you search out one of the many threads where this has been debated before. In brief, the problem with using that quote as proof: “If I had come to you but a short time earlier". We already know Rand could use the TP before, but this doesn't mean that he still can.

The WT argument is generally rebutted by pointing to his Ta'veren affect as displayed in the tower. He had all the Sitters unable to speak, and he seems to have a considerable control over the effect now.

 

"Rand seems to think he can use it. Actually, he seems sure of it, so he must still feel it just out of his reach. I don't think Moridin realized that his link with Rand will let the later use his precious gift from the DO, and since he is using Moridin like some sort of buffer(he used the TP, but doesn't have those black dots in his eyes), he doesn't have the effects of its use." Evidence?

 

 

 

Ultimately it doesn't matter. The TP is the Dark One. The Dark One is an embodiment of this power. That's what Mierin and Beidomon detected in the AoL, that's what caused the Bore - detecting the DO as a source of power. You cannot seal a power away with itself.

[KaptainKaos]

Yeah, everybody can interpret things differently but it seems Rand's comment "If I had come to you but a short

time earlier, I’d have returned those slaps with balefire” and then his quiet acknowledgement that the Guardian only blocks the One Power is proof that what he could have done and would have done prior to Dragonmount is no longer relevant or in line with what he will do. His eyes were opened, using the true power or even needing to use it is no longer an issue and this is highlighted in his confrontation with Egwene in the White Tower. The other Aes Sedai are amazed that Egwene could speak with Rand for instance, his natural abilities seem to be enough to keep him safe.

 

I mean if he can see Darkfriends just by looking in their eyes and lessen the Dark One's touch on the world without even channeling its not really that far of a stretch to say that the Aes Sedai were physically and mentally unable to hold him in the White Tower against his will. Meaning that he had no need to even think of the True Power, by that time he has something far more powerful, the power of the Creator.

 

Also I just wanted to mention Rand was also allowed to use the True Power on a Forsaken (Semirhage) that had angered the Dark One and Moridin by not only getting captured and coming close to the point of being broken but also taking Rand's hand and attempting to kill him (Moridin especially didn't seem to like this second part). In a sense by using the True Power at that point he was helping himself and Min escape but really he was helping the Dark One out by disposing of a tool that had lost its use and could possibly be turned against him.

[Majsju]

One huge problem with the idea that Rand could use TP to eal the Bore...In TOM he pretty much flat out states that he does not have a clue how to seal the Bore. Now, how would he go from that, to coming up with a solution that allows him to seal the Bore in the few seconds it at most would take the DO to figure out what is going on?

 

That would be storytelling on the level of 'It was just a dream'.

[jsbrads]

Rand did not think he could walk away from all those AS if they really wanted to shield him. He knew Egwene and she would not allow him to be held against his will. Also he knew his Taveren ability would maximize the doubt of the AS who were unsure if they should (or even could) shield and hold him etc. We all know 13 could hold him but with him staring at them with his 3000yr old eyes they could doubt the reality they knew to be true...

 

New Rand with all the memories of LTT would not touch TP so the arguement is moot

 

Obvious to me he was implying that he could channel anything (e.g. a fireball propelled toward them) from the outside and the guardian would not protect them. Also I think Bale fire is essentially a super heat ray (circa Ray Bradbury) with the additional weave necessary to affect a time displaced destruction of the threads, the guardian would block the weave but the remaining heat ray would still burn all to ash instantly.

[Xcorpyo001]

But it has been determined that Rand does still have the ability, isn't that so?

No, it hasn't. It's been theorised, but to be clear no-one knows whether Rand still has access to the TP. Various people read the mention in ToM in different ways, some believe it implies he no longer has access, some think it merely refers to his state of mind and he still could use the TP.

 

I think the fundamental problem with this idea is that the TP is described by LT in tGS as being the essence, if you will, of the Dark One. The exact quote is "It is HIM"; thereby suggesting the power is actually "channeling" the Dark One in some way. It's almost certain the DO has a great enough degree of control over this power to prevent it being used to seal him away, whether it be withdrawing access or simply over-ruling the use of his power.

 

It's like trying to tie a very strong man up with his own arms. It's pretty much impossible to begin with, and he's strong enough to make it impossible.

 

 

 

“You don’t know how close you came to doom,” Rand said softly. “If I had come to you but a short

time earlier, I’d have returned those slaps with balefire.”

“Inside the Guardian?” Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

“The Guardian blocks the One Power,” Rand whispered. “The One Power only.”

He was also pretty sure he can just walk out of the Wt even if he was shielded by more than 40 AS.

 

Rand seems to think he can use it. Actually, he seems sure of it, so he must still feel it just out of his reach. I don't think Moridin realized that his link with Rand will let the later use his precious gift from the DO, and since he is using Moridin like some sort of buffer(he used the TP, but doesn't have those black dots in his eyes), he doesn't have the effects of its use.

 

But if he will use the TP again, maybe Moridin will realize the truth and the DO will cut Rand off, even if he has to cut Moridin as well(so even if Moridin knows about it, he won't be crazy enough to tell the DO-which proved before that he doesn't knows everything).

 

So if Rand keeps this secret(and the AS/Chosen/other users of OP don't force him to use it before the LB), he may have a short window to use it in the Last Battle, before the DO will realize what happened and negate him access.

And maybe even then he can wrestle a little portion of that power and use it regardless of the DO's will.

 

I've seen this argument before, and it stills fails to convince me. I suggest you search out one of the many threads where this has been debated before. In brief, the problem with using that quote as proof: “If I had come to you but a short time earlier". We already know Rand could use the TP before, but this doesn't mean that he still can.

The WT argument is generally rebutted by pointing to his Ta'veren affect as displayed in the tower. He had all the Sitters unable to speak, and he seems to have a considerable control over the effect now.

 

"Rand seems to think he can use it. Actually, he seems sure of it, so he must still feel it just out of his reach. I don't think Moridin realized that his link with Rand will let the later use his precious gift from the DO, and since he is using Moridin like some sort of buffer(he used the TP, but doesn't have those black dots in his eyes), he doesn't have the effects of its use." Evidence?

 

 

 

Ultimately it doesn't matter. The TP is the Dark One. The Dark One is an embodiment of this power. That's what Mierin and Beidomon detected in the AoL, that's what caused the Bore - detecting the DO as a source of power. You cannot seal a power away with itself.

 

 

I don't think he used that '“If I had come to you but a short time earlier"'b to explain the lack of TP.

He is talking about his brush with a complete meltdown. He almost balefired his father when the guy just mentioned Cadsuade's name. Slapping him for no obvious reason at that time would have been clearly suicidal.

And he got the entire set of LTT's memories only after Dragonmount. So if he would have met the Borderlanders before, he couldn't know the answer to their question, so they would have tried to kill him right there, which in turn will lead to balefire yet again.

 

I always tried to puzzle which part the Creator plays in this world. LTT or maybe Moridin seems to think he's not doing anything. But since we found out that the DO is just a sentient form of power, saidin and saidar merged together, then maybe the Creator is alike, let's say a representation of saidin and saidar, but apart and in balance. Since nothing can keep the DO in check beside divine intervention, maybe the Creator used part of himself to create the prison, or he himself is the prison, and has to spend all of his time fighting the DO. . And even if he's not actively meddling in the affairs of the world, he allowed humans to use part of his power, how they see fit, or they found a way to use it even without his consent.

So if people can use power from the Creator(saidin or saidar) to do good or evil, maybe people can use the power of the DO to do bad or good things. Maybe it's not the source of the power that dictate the term of usage, but the user himself. Of course, TP is extremely hard to control, so many will lose control, and let the DO take control.

 

But I'm not saying the TP will be the only thing required to seal the Bore. But since last time LTT used only half of the Creator's power, that power wasn't enough to hold him completely, and slowly the DO gained the upper hand. Now, maybe even if the good guys can use both saidin and saidar, they can find out that they can only match the power of the DO. So then, even a very small use of TP from Rand will tip the balance in favor of the good guys. If the DO will use that moment to take over Rand right before he can be sealed and the good guys have to 'help him die', that's a different matter entirely.