Lan vs Mat

[Hadilmir]

Just to stir things up a bit more what about a fight of Lan versus Rhuarc in a fight with just hands and feet, who would win, ha just kidding no one has to even address that.

Nope, I'm going to address it.

 

Go back and read aCoS chapter 12, I know for most of you this is blasphemy (tis and Egwene chapter after all), but if you note how Lan is described in the chapter you would realize how terrifying the man is. Rhuarc is (off the top of my head) my favorite side-character, but I still say Lan would end up winning; I cannot stress enough the point that Lan is the most lethal human in the WoT universe.

 

Not to belittle the rest of your post though. I understand your point of view, but I just disagree with it. I will agree Mat is probably the best suited to beating Lan if someone had to do it.

[Never]

I'm not that big a fan of Mat, and I would agree that Lan is probably a better fighter, but the Ashandarei does put Lan at a serious disadvantage.

 

I haven't played Pokemon for a long time, but even though a specific firepokemon might be more powerful in general than a specific waterpokemon, the waterpokemon might still win on the ground that IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE

[Dewairah]

I'm not even sure rand is technically a bladesmaster.

 

I thought there was a rule (possibly in the BWB?) that a person only became a bladesmaster if they bested another bladesmaster in the presence of a third.

 

Or something equally hard.

 

I remember people making hte point that rand killing turak didnt count as him becoming a bladesmaster.

[Never]

You need to kill one in front of witnesses. Rand had none.

[Xcorpyo001]

You need to kill one in front of witnesses. Rand had none.

 

I think RJ stated somewhere that he's blademaster.

And LTT was also a blademaster, as was Ba'al, Sammael, and probably Ishamael?!? They brought back the use of swords in the AoL.

And if Ishamael was a blademaster(don't know for sure), there were some witnesses at Falme.

[cmsnaith]

Before TG: The Pattern wouldn't let them fight because Lan would win.

 

After TG: Lan would win.

 

Interesting fact: Lan was 45 years old in tEotW.

[Never]

You need to kill one in front of witnesses. Rand had none.

 

I think RJ stated somewhere that he's blademaster.

And LTT was also a blademaster, as was Ba'al, Sammael, and probably Ishamael?!? They brought back the use of swords in the AoL.

And if Ishamael was a blademaster(don't know for sure), there were some witnesses at Falme.

 

 

The rules, afaik, is that you either have to kill a Blademaster in front of witnesses, or have an unanimous council of five Blademasters acknowledge you as one after you show of your skills in some way.

Rand did kill one, but not in front of witnesses, so he has no one that can vouch for him. Therefore he's not an official Blademaster. (Provided I'm right, which I believe I am).

 

And I doubt Elan was a man of the sword. He was an esoteric theologist and philosopher, not a soldier.

[Xcorpyo001]

You need to kill one in front of witnesses. Rand had none.

 

I think RJ stated somewhere that he's blademaster.

And LTT was also a blademaster, as was Ba'al, Sammael, and probably Ishamael?!? They brought back the use of swords in the AoL.

And if Ishamael was a blademaster(don't know for sure), there were some witnesses at Falme.

 

 

The rules, afaik, is that you either have to kill a Blademaster in front of witnesses, or have an unanimous council of five Blademasters acknowledge you as one after you show of your skills in some way.

Rand did kill one, but not in front of witnesses, so he has no one that can vouch for him. Therefore he's not an official Blademaster. (Provided I'm right, which I believe I am).

 

And I doubt Elan was a man of the sword. He was an esoteric theologist and philosopher, not a soldier.

 

 

Technically, none of them were soldiers prior to the creation of the Bore.

They had to 'reinvent' war and fighting, and even improve it in some areas. During that time, some of them became great generals/fighters/administrators/etc.

And again, RJ said that he is a blademaster.

 

On topic, Mat will have the weapon advantage of greater reach, familiarity with quarterstaff, and luck. Lan will probably lose his balance by stepping on a stone or something.

[Never]

What does it matter if none of them were soldiers before the bore? Many men were not soldiers prioer to WWII, that doesn't mean they were not soldiers. Sammael was a soldier, Be'lal revived the ancient art of swordfighting with LTT, while Ishamael went another way. So no, Elan would never be a blademaster.

 

And I'd like to see a quote on the "Rand is a Blademaster"-thing. I will accept a quote from RJ, but no less as it goes against what we've read in the series about how one becomes one.

[Xcorpyo001]

What does it matter if none of them were soldiers before the bore? Many men were not soldiers prioer to WWII, that doesn't mean they were not soldiers. Sammael was a soldier, Be'lal revived the ancient art of swordfighting with LTT, while Ishamael went another way. So no, Elan would never be a blademaster.

 

And I'd like to see a quote on the "Rand is a Blademaster"-thing. I will accept a quote from RJ, but no less as it goes against what we've read in the series about how one becomes one.

 

 

I can't find the site with the Q&A now, but I'll keep looking.

In TGS, when they are in Falme, he tells Nynaeve about that fight with a Blademaster, and Nynaeve tells him that the act itself matters, and he does have the right to wear the heron marked sword. Small chances to accept that, hmmm? It can be said to be the author's thoughts on that matter, but it would carry a lot more weight coming from a blademaster rather than a biased AS.

And there were witnesses during his fight at Falme. The two servants in the same room and those outside that 'felt' it and killed themselves.

[Never]

In that scene with Nynaeve you speak of, Rand himself says he is not a Blademaster.

 

And dead servants count not as witnesses, no more than the second killed in a double homicide.

[Xcorpyo001]

In that scene with Nynaeve you speak of, Rand himself says he is not a Blademaster.

 

And dead servants count not as witnesses, no more than the second killed in a double homicide.

 

 

His father also stated that he doesn't consider himself a blademaster, although he did it by the book. And that the price was to high(also in TGS).

Gawyn also seem to think he's not a blademaster, but other blademasters/warders disagree.

And maybe you should explain the entire process better.

How many witnesses? How much do they have to live after they see the fight?

Do they have to grade the fight at the end? Do they have to sign in the white book of blademasters?

Or give statement before the Blademaster High Council?

Tam is a blademaster, and we don't know how many witnesses he had, or how long they survived.

Gawyn is also considered a blademaster by the Warders, and we don't know if he had witnesses, how many or if they all survived the fight to tell their story.

 

 

edit:

Anyway, returning to Mat. I thing BS made a Lan>Rand(two hands)>Galad>Gawyn statement around here(Q&A section probably)

Galad and Gawin are both considered blademasters(or at least killed blademasters in 1 vs 1 fights)

Mat managed to defeath both of them with a staff, and he was very weak(maybe the guys didn't took him seriously, but that was their problem).

Do you think Lan can defeat both of them at once without receiving any wounds?

[Kahsm]

You need to kill one in front of witnesses. Rand had none.

 

I think RJ stated somewhere that he's blademaster.

And LTT was also a blademaster, as was Ba'al, Sammael, and probably Ishamael?!? They brought back the use of swords in the AoL.

And if Ishamael was a blademaster(don't know for sure), there were some witnesses at Falme.

 

 

The rules, afaik, is that you either have to kill a Blademaster in front of witnesses, or have an unanimous council of five Blademasters acknowledge you as one after you show of your skills in some way.

Rand did kill one, but not in front of witnesses, so he has no one that can vouch for him. Therefore he's not an official Blademaster. (Provided I'm right, which I believe I am).

 

And I doubt Elan was a man of the sword. He was an esoteric theologist and philosopher, not a soldier.

 

 

Technically, none of them were soldiers prior to the creation of the Bore.

They had to 'reinvent' war and fighting, and even improve it in some areas. During that time, some of them became great generals/fighters/administrators/etc.

And again, RJ said that he is a blademaster.

 

On topic, Mat will have the weapon advantage of greater reach, familiarity with quarterstaff, and luck. Lan will probably lose his balance by stepping on a stone or something.

 

IIRC, and I may not so don't quote me, they still had sword fighting in tournaments of sorts? Most AoL channelers find swords quite useless. As does Taim (assuming he's not an AoL channie). So while LTT was considered one of the best, I doubt he used it much in battle at all. It was more of a "no one could beat him when we were screwing around with primitive weaponry".

[Never]

 

IIRC, and I may not so don't quote me, they still had sword fighting in tournaments of sorts? Most AoL channelers find swords quite useless. As does Taim (assuming he's not an AoL channie). So while LTT was considered one of the best, I doubt he used it much in battle at all. It was more of a "no one could beat him when we were screwing around with primitive weaponry".

 

I believe it was LTT and Be'lal who "reinvented" this sport. I do believe you're correct, pretty sure they had tournaments.

[Quazie89]

This is going to be a tough choice for me, because Mat and Lan are two of my favorite characters, and I would love to see either one win, but if I had to choose, I would say Mat would win with the help of his luck, but he wouldn't be able to kill Lan, because he would feel bad about it, and Lan would call it a truce, out of respect for Mat's decision to let him live, so I'm going to vote for a draw, but mostly because I wouldn't be able to choose between the two anyway.

[Entreri]

Rand > Riatin

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

No. Riatin was the only one to score a blow and that makes him the winner. How Rand approaches a fight are his responsibility.

Saying 'oh well he would have won if he hadn't handicapped himself' is like a child complaining that 'you only won the race cos you're bigger than me'.

 

It was practice and he landed the blow after Rand stopped fighting and he was not even looking at him. Rand was just toying with him, obviously a mistake.

 

Real fight, Rand would win 100/100 times. According to RJ and Brandon, the #1 blademaster in the series is Lan, #2 blademaster is Rand.

 

Minus ta'avern ability Rand > Riatin and given ta'veren, no way Riatin would ever win a real fight (Rand >> Riatin). Lan destroyed Riatin with ease.

 

If not for ta'avern, Lan would destroy Mat. Lan will likely trip over a rock (etc) and Mat will run him through.

[MasterAblar]

Rand > Riatin

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

No. Riatin was the only one to score a blow and that makes him the winner. How Rand approaches a fight are his responsibility.

Saying 'oh well he would have won if he hadn't handicapped himself' is like a child complaining that 'you only won the race cos you're bigger than me'.

 

It was practice and he landed the blow after Rand stopped fighting and he was not even looking at him. Rand was just toying with him, obviously a mistake.

 

Real fight, Rand would win 100/100 times. According to RJ and Brandon, the #1 blademaster in the series is Lan, #2 blademaster is Rand.

 

Minus ta'avern ability Rand > Riatin and given ta'veren, no way Riatin would ever win a real fight (Rand >> Riatin). Lan destroyed Riatin with ease.

 

If not for ta'avern, Lan would destroy Mat. Lan will likely trip over a rock (etc) and Mat will run him through.

 

I'm pretty sure Riatin injured Lan in their fight.

[Entreri]

Rand > Riatin

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

No. Riatin was the only one to score a blow and that makes him the winner. How Rand approaches a fight are his responsibility.

Saying 'oh well he would have won if he hadn't handicapped himself' is like a child complaining that 'you only won the race cos you're bigger than me'.

 

It was practice and he landed the blow after Rand stopped fighting and he was not even looking at him. Rand was just toying with him, obviously a mistake.

 

Real fight, Rand would win 100/100 times. According to RJ and Brandon, the #1 blademaster in the series is Lan, #2 blademaster is Rand.

 

Minus ta'avern ability Rand > Riatin and given ta'veren, no way Riatin would ever win a real fight (Rand >> Riatin). Lan destroyed Riatin with ease.

 

If not for ta'avern, Lan would destroy Mat. Lan will likely trip over a rock (etc) and Mat will run him through.

 

I'm pretty sure Riatin injured Lan in their fight.

 

A little cut to the side.

 

Compare that to type of injuries Lan and others have sustained facing off against true uber blademasters (Valda, Ryne). And Rand would have beaten either Valda or Ryne, being #2.

[Thor]

lan.

 

mat's luck won't work against lan. the pattern won't let him use his luck.

[Kahsm]

Just to stir things up a bit more what about a fight of Lan versus Rhuarc in a fight with just hands and feet, who would win, ha just kidding no one has to even address that.

Nope, I'm going to address it.

 

Go back and read aCoS chapter 12, I know for most of you this is blasphemy (tis and Egwene chapter after all), but if you note how Lan is described in the chapter you would realize how terrifying the man is. Rhuarc is (off the top of my head) my favorite side-character, but I still say Lan would end up winning; I cannot stress enough the point that Lan is the most lethal human in the WoT universe.

 

Not to belittle the rest of your post though. I understand your point of view, but I just disagree with it. I will agree Mat is probably the best suited to beating Lan if someone had to do it.

 

In tSR, Lan partakes in the "hands and feet" training that Rhuarc gives Rand because Lan knew "a little" or "some" or something to suggest 'not much', according to Rand's PoV. So I would absolutely put my money on Rhuarc if it was hands and feet only. Which makes sense, I mean no one's going to fight up in the blight using hands and feet.

[sleepinghour]

In tSR, Lan partakes in the "hands and feet" training that Rhuarc gives Rand because Lan knew "a little" or "some" or something to suggest 'not much', according to Rand's PoV. So I would absolutely put my money on Rhuarc if it was hands and feet only. Which makes sense, I mean no one's going to fight up in the blight using hands and feet.

You really think someone like Lan wouldn't know how to fight without weapons?

 

Suddenly one of the guards vanished. One minute there were two dim shapes, the next the night swallowed one of them. The second guard turned, the beginning of a cry on his lips, but before the first syllable was uttered there was a solid tchunk and he toppled over like a felled tree.

Byar spun, swift as a striking viper, the axe whirling in his hands so fast that it hummed. Perrin’s eyes bulged as the night seemed to flow into the lantern light. His mouth opened to yell, but his throat locked tight with fear. For an instant he even forgot that Byar wanted to kill them. The Whitecloak was another human being, and the night had come alive to take them all.

Then the darkness invading the light became Lan, cloak swirling through shades of gray and black as he moved. The axe in Byar’s hands lashed out like lightning . . . and Lan seemed to lean casually aside, letting the blade pass so close he must have felt the wind of it. Byar’s eyes widened as the force of his blow carried him off balance, as the Warder struck with hands and feet in rapid succession, so quick that Perrin was not sure what he had just seen. What he was sure of was Byar collapsing like a puppet.

[Never]

 

 

Compare that to type of injuries Lan and others have sustained facing off against true uber blademasters (Valda, Ryne). And Rand would have beaten either Valda or Ryne, being #2.

 

When did Lan face Valda?

[Never]

In tSR, Lan partakes in the "hands and feet" training that Rhuarc gives Rand because Lan knew "a little" or "some" or something to suggest 'not much', according to Rand's PoV. So I would absolutely put my money on Rhuarc if it was hands and feet only. Which makes sense, I mean no one's going to fight up in the blight using hands and feet.

 

 

I think Lan knew a little about how the Aiel fought with hands and feet (which is described as "strange", iirc). I would say Lan > Rhuarch, but only due to fanboism and the lack of evidence either way. Lan vs Rhuarch, both armed, I would say Lan. The aiel bucklers won't keep Rhuarc from breaking his arm if he blocks (unless it shatters, also likely), and while the spear may have some advantage in speed, its use is limited mostly to stabs, while a sword is far more versatile.

[Dastion]

There are some important aspects to consider:

 

Mat beat really only beat Galad. His health at the time caused the two to not be cautious enough and so allowed Mat to lay out Gawyn before the fight even really started. Then it was just a matter of beating Galad.

 

Yes, Gawyn and Galad had trained professionally with swords for years while Mat only practiced the quarterstaff with his father for feastday events. But you have to keep in mind the advantages of a quarter staff versus a swordsman. Gawyn and Galad trained with practice swords, not versus people with quarter staves. They were unfamiliar with how to defend against something that has a vastly different reach and trajectory. It's also significantly harder to parry a quarterstaff with your sword than a fellow sword. Quarterstaves also have the nifty bonus of turning their downswing into an upswing (as you swing one side towards them, you can turn it into a thrust with the other end).

 

 

As to Lan vs. Mat.. I'd guess it would end up like one of those situations where two people try to sidestep one another to get out of the others way, but go the same direction and continue to do so. Except each would find themselves countering the other exactly. If I had to say who would win, my primary concern would be what was best for the pattern. If the cause was such that Mat needed to win, he'd win. If it was such that Mat killing Lan wasn't worth the cost of his loss, Mat would lose.

[Aleator77]

With Mat's attitude, I doubt that he trained intensely in the use of the staff or bow. He took things far too lightly for that. At best he may have trained for week or two in a year. This is against formal training the prince's received.

 

A week or two a year? Highly unlikely considering it's one of the things Mat would have enjoyed doing to escape the drudgery of farm work.

 

Again the staff is a farmers weapon, used in daily life on a regular basis. Mat's father won the contest at Bel Tine ever year. It is perfectly reasonable to think he would have trained his son a great deal more than what you put forth and started him out at a young age.

 

What kind of farmer uses any kind of weapon on a daily basis? Even if mat's da did teach him anything, comparing it to formal training given to a prince by blademasters and warders is silly.