Lan vs Mat

[KaptainKaos]

Hmm, not sure how this discussion is going on so long. The fact is as good as Lan is he doesn't have the hundred plus years of fighting experience that Mat has with his memories. Also Mat doesn't have the memories of some run of the mill everyday fighters, they are the memories of some of the most deadly and awe inspiring figures in the past 3000 years. These men were much like Lan even to the point of being kings or great fighting men of their people and their memories combined along with his own experiences outweigh Lan's by a fair margin. This is without including Mat's luck and his advantage in using the ashandarei over Lan's sword.

[KaptainKaos]

Well somehow I did the double post thing too, some type of lag caused mine.

[Never]

KapteinKaos, there's so much more to fighting than theory.

[KaptainKaos]

Not sure how to respond to that, any fight between Mat and Lan would most likely have to be exclusively theory since I don't seem them going at it anytime soon and I didn't mention any theories on Mat, it is known that he has these men's memories and can use them to deadly effect because its been going on throughout the entire series.

[Never]

No man, I didn't mean OUR theories, I mean the theory that comes from his memory. Thing is, he might remember how something is to be done, but as pointed out by someone above - reflexes, hand-to-eye-coordination, physical aptness, familiarity with certain types of moves; there are a lot of factors that are untouched by Mat's memories. Now, Mat is very skilled indeed, and I do think he would mostly beat Lan, but the memories of men with close to Lan's abilities will not make him able to fight at that level in themselves.

[KaptainKaos]

Oh I see, you are implying he only saw through their eyes so didn't actually have the full body experience but that doesn't seem to be the case because he handles the ashandarei naturally without having to remember how he saw it being handled in past lives. This among other things, says to me says that he didn't just see the world through their eyes but felt and lived it through their entire bodies giving him physical memory as well as mentally remembering.

 

Not the same as being them, I suppose, he doesn't have their muscles, stature and such but he caught the knife the gholam threw at him out of the air on instinct. This instinct is a prime example of his memories affecting him physically and enabling him physically to be as capable or more than those men from his memories.

[Entreri]

Not sure how to respond to that, any fight between Mat and Lan would most likely have to be exclusively theory since I don't seem them going at it anytime soon and I didn't mention any theories on Mat, it is known that he has these men's memories and can use them to deadly effect because its been going on throughout the entire series.

 

You have to realize that in this series, FARMERS are #1.

 

Jearom defeated by a mere farmer, probably very easily, 10 second fight? 2 seconds? 1 second?

 

Galad+Gawyn defeated by a half starving farmer. That 'fight' took at most 1 minute.

 

Shai'tan is going to be defeated by a FARMER. A sheepherder to be exact.

 

Farmer's market rule supreme. And I don't just mean the pumpkin pie.

 

 

Mat is a farmer, and the luckiest farmer alive. Almost always, luck goes his way. Certainly always in combat. If Rand is luckier than 10 men, Mat is luckier than a quadrillion men.

 

I was probably being too generous to Lan about the double KO. If Mat was ON HIS GAME, Lan+Jearom would get annihilated. Both of them would trip, get bugs in the eye etc when fighting Mat.

 

The only reason the gholam was alive against Mat is because of his inability to kill it, or the confrontation would have ended in book 7.

 

With a spear like weapon (ter'angreal crafted by Elayne), he could probably take on 2 gholam's and kill them both.

[KaptainKaos]

Lol Entreri, seriously I am still laughing. Although Mat wasn't really a farmer, his father was a horse trader among other things but I don't think he had a farm and I can't see Mat doing a hard days work as a farmer even when he did do work on the farms around Emond's Field.

[Kahsm]

No man, I didn't mean OUR theories, I mean the theory that comes from his memory. Thing is, he might remember how something is to be done, but as pointed out by someone above - reflexes, hand-to-eye-coordination, physical aptness, familiarity with certain types of moves; there are a lot of factors that are untouched by Mat's memories. Now, Mat is very skilled indeed, and I do think he would mostly beat Lan, but the memories of men with close to Lan's abilities will not make him able to fight at that level in themselves.

 

Fighting the sand people bubble of evil in Rhuidean, Rand says he uses it like a Q-Staff but adding the blade, so the physical capabilities are probably similar. And just after Rhuidean when the trollocs attack the Jindo, in Matt's PoV he thanks the memories for their help using the weapon.

 

Also, "reflex" is often termed muscle memory, it's just a passive type of memory. No reason to think he doesn't get those as well, even if they aren't really accessible like other sense-based things. He doesn't need to think, "let me try and remember how I used this before", he just uses it because he remembers how on a instinctual level. Similar to Rand channeling things via LTT memories even though he doesn't know what they are or what they're called or even how he did it.

[MasterAblar]

Lan is better, but Mat would win. You can't beat pure luck.

 

This is as long as the pattern doesn't do anything to change the outcome of course.

[Entreri]

Lol Entreri, seriously I am still laughing. Although Mat wasn't really a farmer, his father was a horse trader among other things but I don't think he had a farm and I can't see Mat doing a hard days work as a farmer even when he did do work on the farms around Emond's Field.

 

LOL.

 

Mat and hard work are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. He hasn't even read a single book. He has the attention span of a 12 year old.

[Entreri]

Lan is better, but Mat would win. You can't beat pure luck.

 

This is as long as the pattern doesn't do anything to change the outcome of course.

 

 

Yes.

 

Lan might trip over something and kill himself with his own sword...

 

Aside from the 3 ta'avern, everybody else had to go through long and rigorous training.

 

Lan, blademaster as a teenager, Ryne probably same thing, both training for numerous years. Valda was a blademaster as a young man (18?, 20?), according to Galad.

 

Galad, Gawyn, intensive training as youth. Riatin, no doubt the same thing. Same would likely apply to Sleet, Hammer, Bryne and any other blademaster, including Jearom.

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Somebody mentioned that Gawyn may surpass Galad and even Lan. Very unlikely.

 

Gawyn became a blademaster at a later stage in life than Lan and he lacks both the physical and mental attributes of Lan. Galad is always described as being the better of the two. The gap is far too large to overcome. Warder bond does not increase one's speed or abilities with the sword.

 

Lan >> Rand > Galad > Gawyn

 

If Gawyn was at Rand's level currently, then given time, maybe he can be = Lan.

[Never]

Oh I see, you are implying he only saw through their eyes so didn't actually have the full body experience but that doesn't seem to be the case because he handles the ashandarei naturally without having to remember how he saw it being handled in past lives. This among other things, says to me says that he didn't just see the world through their eyes but felt and lived it through their entire bodies giving him physical memory as well as mentally remembering.

 

Not the same as being them, I suppose, he doesn't have their muscles, stature and such but he caught the knife the gholam threw at him out of the air on instinct. This instinct is a prime example of his memories affecting him physically and enabling him physically to be as capable or more than those men from his memories.

 

 

The only differences between using an Ashandarei and a quarterstaff would be the balance and the blade. Since it's a powerwrought weapon, it will not break, and the full utilization of the blade I would suppose goes something like "slash instead of pound", which is rather different but still not an unfamiliar motion to one used to a quarterstaff.

 

So no, his instant abilities with the Ashandarei does not prove anything. Any farmer would be able to use it to a good effect, and Mat is better than most with a staff, providing him mostly all of the agility and dexterity needed to master a two-sided weapon.

 

I don't think the memories give him any superpowers when it comes to catching knifes out of the air either. Mat is a skilled juggler and as Thom notes, he has extremely fast reflexes and I believe that instinct to be his own.

 

 

Fighting the sand people bubble of evil in Rhuidean, Rand says he uses it like a Q-Staff but adding the blade, so the physical capabilities are probably similar. And just after Rhuidean when the trollocs attack the Jindo, in Matt's PoV he thanks the memories for their help using the weapon.

 

 

Exactly. Mat has all the primary skills needed for use of the Ashandarei, and he knows how it is to be used. The combination of the former, skills, and the later, knowledge, causes him to master the weapon almost instantly. I'm not suggesting that the memories doesn't make Mat a lot better, I'm saying that the memories makes him better because he already understand the basics of the weapon. Many of the people of his old memories probably knows how to use a blade very well - still, I don't think anyone would argue that Mat is a better swordsman than Lan or Rand.

 

Also, "reflex" is often termed muscle memory, it's just a passive type of memory. No reason to think he doesn't get those as well, even if they aren't really accessible like other sense-based things. He doesn't need to think, "let me try and remember how I used this before", he just uses it because he remembers how on a instinctual level. Similar to Rand channeling things via LTT memories even though he doesn't know what they are or what they're called or even how he did it.

 

 

Yes, we have a reason to think he doesn't get those. Take me and you, Kael. We probably walk very differently. If your mind was somehow perfectly transmigrated into my body, people would probably not that some mannerisms, like my walking and my stance, would be different. If Mat adapted other people's muscle memories, he would be walking a hundred different ways at once. He doesn't, so why should he adapt other people's reflexes and general muscle memory?

 

Rand and LTT is somewhat different, as Rand IS LTT, while Mat just remembers other people's lives as his own.

In tGS, Tuon notes that Rand has the mannerisms of a king, and she wonders who taught him. While Elayne and Gawyn probably has been taught to stand up straight since they were little, I don't think that all of Rands mannerisms could be explained simply by some late form of socialization, but rather as the old LTT's way of moving becoming instinctual to Rand because he IS LTT. Mat shows no sign of such. In fact, the memories seem not to directly influence the way he generally behaves; Mat still acts like Mat, not like a general or king from Manetheren.

[Never]

I came up with an example. I play the guitar, and if I were given the memories of Page, Hammet, Gilmour and Slash the same way Mat gets his memories, I would probably almost instantly become a better guitarist. If you gain the same memories, however, do you think you would be able to make the same of them in the same amount of time as I do (provided you do not play :p).

[Arkane101]

hmm, you seem to be assuming that muscle memory is the same as regular memory, muscle memory generally is something physical, it's not that your muscles actually remember, it's that your body has done something before (generally several times) and that it physically has adapted itself so it can do it again easier/quicker/stronger.

 

But all in all the fight goes down in 2 ways, if it were a training fight with no life on the line Lan would win, because he is a better fighter, but most likely if it were a real fight to the death Mat would win because he is Ta'veran/the luckiest man in the world.

[Never]

Thanks, but no, I did not.

 

And you say that like it's the truth. It's an opinion, and not really backed up.

 

 

Anyways, I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

[Dewairah]

I think Lan is like Dimebag and Matt is like Hammett.

[Din]

Rand > Riatin

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

No. Riatin was the only one to score a blow and that makes him the winner. How Rand approaches a fight are his responsibility.

Saying 'oh well he would have won if he hadn't handicapped himself' is like a child complaining that 'you only won the race cos you're bigger than me'.

[MasterAblar]

Rand > Riatin

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

No. Riatin was the only one to score a blow and that makes him the winner. How Rand approaches a fight are his responsibility.

Saying 'oh well he would have won if he hadn't handicapped himself' is like a child complaining that 'you only won the race cos you're bigger than me'.

 

Rand didn't really have a choice but to handicapp himself so as to not reveal his identity. In a real fight to the death between the two he probably wouldn't be bothering with that. And Riatin landed the hit because Rand stopped fighting.

[KaptainKaos]

Yeah I wouldn't say Rand lost to Riatin, obviously if it was real swords Rand's attention wouldn't have be diverted so easily. Rand was thinking of it in terms of two guys playing video games against each other at home when suddenly a stampede of elephants bursts through one wall, Riatin is the nerd that is still trying to win the video game.

[Hadilmir]

Yeah I wouldn't say Rand lost to Riatin, obviously if it was real swords Rand's attention wouldn't have be diverted so easily. Rand was thinking of it in terms of two guys playing video games against each other at home when suddenly a stampede of elephants bursts through one wall, Riatin is the nerd that is still trying to win the video game.

...exactly? The 'nerd' is the winner is this case. Is he better? Who knows, but we do know he won the game. Rand lost to Riatin in this instance, regardless of whether or not Rand would have won under different circumstances.

 

Either way, I fail to see how Mat is leading by 9 votes. He may be my (Read: everyone's) favorite character, but that doesn't mean he would win against Lan just because of his Ta'veren factor.

[KaptainKaos]

Sorry Hadilmir but the video game world series rulebook states on page 6 line 34 that if a stampede of elephants charges through the game area, play is officially suspended and an immediate rematch is necessary. In the event that an immediate rematch cannot be possible within 24 hours the first person that reacted to the life threatening stampede is deemed to have more common sense and better reflexes therefore they are the winner by default. I know you must not have access to the rulebook because it does not exist.

 

Yeah there's no way to argue this point, I shouldn't even have said anything but everyone knows there are glitches or cheats in games to beat them. You might be someone who believes the person who takes advantage of those glitches or cheats actually beat the game, I am not.

 

As for the argument of Mat versus Lan, I already said my piece on that in previous posts and there's more to say but I don't have time or the patience right now to say it. Fair warning/challenge: maybe more tomorrow unless someone can sum up what I want to say for me.

[sleepinghour]

...exactly? The 'nerd' is the winner is this case. Is he better? Who knows, but we do know he won the game. Rand lost to Riatin in this instance, regardless of whether or not Rand would have won under different circumstances.

 

Either way, I fail to see how Mat is leading by 9 votes. He may be my (Read: everyone's) favorite character, but that doesn't mean he would win against Lan just because of his Ta'veren factor.

Because people don't like the idea of someone like Riatin being a better swordsman than Rand, or anyone beating Mat at anything. And I totally get that (hey, I was annoyed when Alivia showed up and was stronger than Nynaeve), but the main characters aren't the best at everything, nor would I want them to be. That way lies the road to Mary Sue-ness and Gary Stu-dom. Rand is already the strongest/most skilled channeler and Mat the best general, so it's not like they don't have their own fields in which they are the best.

 

Back and forth in beauty, and whatever Rand thought, Toram clearly wished his blade was steel. Cold rage burned on his face, and he pressed harder, harder. Still no blade touched anything but another, yet now Rand backed away constantly, sword darting to defend, and Toram moved forward, attacking, eyes glittering with icy fury.

Rand wasn't losing only because he wore gloves; Riatin was better. And even Mat thinks Lan would wipe the floor with him.

 

"Those bloody flaming women," Mat muttered.

"I hope you don’t include my wife," Lan said coldly, one hand gripping the hilt of his sword, and Mat quickly raised his own hands.

"Of course not. Just Elayne and . . . and the Kin."

After a moment, Lan nodded, and Mat breathed a small sigh of relief. It would be just like Nynaeve to get him killed by her husband — her husband! — when sure as bread was brown, she would have hidden the fact that one of the Forsaken might be in the city.

[Hadilmir]

Sorry Hadilmir but the video game world series rulebook states on page 6 line 34 that if a stampede of elephants charges through the game area, play is officially suspended and an immediate rematch is necessary. In the event that an immediate rematch cannot be possible within 24 hours the first person that reacted to the life threatening stampede is deemed to have more common sense and better reflexes therefore they are the winner by default. I know you must not have access to the rulebook because it does not exist.

 

Yeah there's no way to argue this point, I shouldn't even have said anything but everyone knows there are glitches or cheats in games to beat them. You might be someone who believes the person who takes advantage of those glitches or cheats actually beat the game, I am not.

First, I lol'd. Second, no I'm perfectly in agreement against cheating and exploitations, but those are video games. A better analogy would be Lee vs Grant in the American Civil War. Lee was arguably the better general (Please don't make an argument of this) but Grant won because he had more men to toss into the meat-grinder. Is this fair? Not at all. Did Grant win? Yes, there is no doubt about this.

Fair warning/challenge: maybe more tomorrow unless someone can sum up what I want to say for me.

I look forward to it.

 

Because people don't like the idea of someone like Riatin being a better swordsman than Rand, or anyone beating Mat at anything. And I totally get that (hey, I was annoyed when Alivia showed up and was stronger than Nynaeve), but the main characters aren't the best at everything, nor would I want them to be. That way lies the road to Mary Sue-ness and Gary Stu-dom. Rand is already the strongest/most skilled channeler and Mat the best general, so it's not like they don't have their own fields in which they are the best.

I agree, I just didn't want to be that accusatory. My point was the silliness of the Ta'veren clause, it isn't as if the two would fight under normal circumstances anyway, why throw that in the mix? Still, I think you may be right about fandom trumping logic in this case, but I suppose that's the point of these polls.

[KaptainKaos]

Okay first Rand and Riatin. Sleepinghour, no one is afraid of Riatin being a better swordsman than Rand, they were practice swords, to prove Riatin is a better swordsman they would have had to fight with real swords.

 

The main characters aren't best at everything but its kind of hard for Rand to not be highly skilled with a sword with all the experiences he has had (I am not going to go over them or how impressive they have been, everyone knows). He is also one of the best blademasters of the Age of Legends reborn which people tend to forget. Lews Therin has already helped Rand with channeling consciously and unconsciously, his quick wrists, natural talent and quick learning that Lan recognizes are most likely there but also partially the result of Lews Therin's influence.

 

In other words its okay for Rand to be a above average Blademaster prior to losing his hand and perfectly reasonable to assume Rand is a better blademaster than Riatin and was just caught off guard by reality crumbling around him including women being killed. If you want to believe Riatin is better because he landed a cheap shot that is your choice. Just because Rand was forced to back away and defend himself while Riatin was getting all excited wishing it was a real sword doesn't mean a thing. We see the characters on the defensive throughout the series just as they turn the tide and beat their opponent, its called dramatic storytelling.

 

Now for Mat versus Lan, we will start at the beginning and go forward with Mat. He defeated Galad and Gawyn two on one with a quarterstaff in Tar Valon, he didn't only defeat them, he beat them precisely making sure they weren't killed or harmed too the point of death. He did the same with the High Lord Darlin in the Stone of Tear except this was in a confined area against a much better swordsman than Galad and Gawyn (at the time Mat fought them) combined. He then defeated Couladin, the leader of the Shaido Aiel, in single combat although he did have the ashandarei and the memories of how to use it properly at that time. Among the numerous Aiel and Shadowspawn he has fought by this time he also survives several encounters with a gholam afterwards, eventually succeeding in killing it, a feat once assumed to be impossible.

 

All of this experience and accomplishment is tied in with the memories in his head which are remembered as if he was that man. He was the one swinging the sword or in many cases the ashandarei. He was the one giving the commands hence him speaking the Old Tongue involuntarily and if he can do that who's to say that he doesn't involuntarily fight with the skill of the men in his memories combined just as he combines his different dialects of the Old Tongue (rhetorical question).

 

This kind of experience added to the advantages of his ashandarei against a sword (even a Blademaster's sword) along with Mat's commonly recognized luck really does put him in the realm of a fair opponent for Lan in combat. No one can say that Lan wouldn't trip and fall on his own sword killing himself in a fight with Mat but that doesn't have to happen for Mat to win. He definitely has the edge over most other characters in a fight against Lan except for channelers using the Power obviously.

 

Just to stir things up a bit more what about a fight of Lan versus Rhuarc in a fight with just hands and feet, who would win, ha just kidding no one has to even address that.