Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[ptolemy99]

One of the things I really hoped would occur when Egwene became the true Amyrlin was to remove the requirement of the oaths that bind all Aes Sedai. I understand why they are there, similar to Asimov's laws for robots. I think ascending to the title of Aes Sedai should be rewarded not punished.

 

Bindings like this used to punish channelers in the AoL that used their power against the laws during that age. I don't recall where in the books, but one of the Forsaken thinks about how she was going to be bound for transgressions (I think about hurting people she was healing).

 

Egwene was inclined to do away with the 3 oaths when she was first learning to use the One Power. Then she did a complete 180. I wonder if she came to this conclusion on her own gradually over time or whether it was introduced or amplified by Halima.

 

I'd really like to see Egwene to come back around and decide that the Aes Sedai will remove the oaths and work to earn back honored places among the peoples of Randland by their actions, rather than their underhanded politics.

[MasterAblar]

One of the things I really hoped would occur when Egwene became the true Amyrlin was to remove the requirement of the oaths that bind all Aes Sedai. I understand why they are there, similar to Asimov's laws for robots. I think ascending to the title of Aes Sedai should be rewarded not punished.

 

Bindings like this used to punish channelers in the AoL that used their power against the laws during that age. I don't recall where in the books, but one of the Forsaken thinks about how she was going to be bound for transgressions (I think about hurting people she was healing).

 

Egwene was inclined to do away with the 3 oaths when she was first learning to use the One Power. Then she did a complete 180. I wonder if she came to this conclusion on her own gradually over time or whether it was introduced or amplified by Halima.

 

I'd really like to see Egwene to come back around and decide that the Aes Sedai will remove the oaths and work to earn back honored places among the peoples of Randland by their actions, rather than their underhanded politics.

 

The forsaken you're thinking about is Semirhage.

[damandred]

I think Egwene only wanted the oaths removed when a AS retired, because the oaths some how shortened AS life span. I don't think she could abollish them completly as most AS see the oaths as being apart of who they are, it would be hard to overcome 3 thousand years of tradition. PS. The Forsaken who was going to be bound was Sem after she was found out doing experments on the people she was ment to be healing, its what made her turn to the shadow but she was always a sadist.

[MasterAblar]

I think Egwene only wanted the oaths removed when a AS retired, because the oaths some how shortened AS life span. I don't think she could abollish them completly as most AS see the oaths as being apart of who they are, it would be hard to overcome 3 thousand years of tradition. PS. The Forsaken who was going to be bound was Sem after she was found out doing experments on the people she was ment to be healing, its what made her turn to the shadow but she was always a sadist.

 

The oaths were only implemented after the Trolloc Wars I believe, so I think it's more like 2 thousand years.

[damandred]

Still a long time. No?

[MasterAblar]

Still a long time. No?

 

Of course, I just wanted to clarify.

[Luckers]

I would like to see the Oaths removed, but I'm thinking they won't--if the removal of the Oaths were in the notes, there have been plenty of moment to step towards that--for instance the Aes Sedai might have struggled more during the fight with the Seanchan on a purely Oath based level, or the issue with making gateways for soldiers could have been made to be a violation of the Oath against using the Power to make a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

For that matter there could have been a really neat little moment with Mesaana and the realisation that the Oath Rod could be gotten around--I mean look at the way Verin and Siuan reacted to the stories that Bornhold would have told after Egwene's little display in tDR--it could have been spun like 'word must never get out, the nations would never trust us' kind of moment (plus it might have given the Danelle reveal a bit of oomph).

 

Given Brandon's not played on any of these points (and don't get me wrong, to play on all of them likely would have been heavy handed) I get the feel thats not the way the story is going. You never know, he could be saving it for a big singular event--I've suggested before Cadsuane may choose to go against the Oaths once she learns the full reality of them, and she does have the strength to stand against the entire Tower, and push Egwene on the issue.

 

But yeah, it's not the feel I get.

[Kahsm]

I would like to see the Oaths removed, but I'm thinking they won't--if the removal of the Oaths were in the notes, there have been plenty of moment to step towards that--for instance the Aes Sedai might have struggled more during the fight with the Seanchan on a purely Oath based level, or the issue with making gateways for soldiers could have been made to be a violation of the Oath against using the Power to make a weapon for one man to kill another.

 

For that matter there could have been a really neat little moment with Mesaana and the realisation that the Oath Rod could be gotten around--I mean look at the way Verin and Siuan reacted to the stories that Bornhold would have told after Egwene's little display in tDR--it could have been spun like 'word must never get out, the nations would never trust us' kind of moment (plus it might have given the Danelle reveal a bit of oomph).

 

Given Brandon's not played on any of these points (and don't get me wrong, to play on all of them likely would have been heavy handed) I get the feel thats not the way the story is going. You never know, he could be saving it for a big singular event--I've suggested before Cadsuane may choose to go against the Oaths once she learns the full reality of them, and she does have the strength to stand against the entire Tower, and push Egwene on the issue.

 

But yeah, it's not the feel I get.

 

Yeah. And if you wanted to rebuild AS trust, I think you'd do that BEFORE you remove the oaths, not the other way around. And that would take a long time and put us well out of the scope of these books.

 

But particularly on Egwene's attack on the whitecloaks, that was really brushed aside. When I read that I was thinking international catastrophe, but apparently not. At least a mention of Siuan writing letters to various leaders explaining a run-away accepted was recaptured or something would have been nice. Though I guess most people think AS get around all the oaths one way or another anyhow.

 

Also, it's probably not a stretch to believe an AS's life was actually in danger when they come in contact with whitecloaks.

[randsc]

I am concerned that my daughter is walking home through a dangerous part of town, and has not listened to good advice to be more careful. So I have a couple of my friends grab her off the street, drag her into an alley, and tear her clothes. As a result, my daughter learns an important lesson, and never again walks home through the dangerous part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

I am concerned that my daughter is walking home through a dangerous part of town, and has not listened to good advice to be more careful. Also, I am getting a regular piece on the side, and she lives in that part of town, and I am concerned that my daughter may discover that fact and reveal it to my wife. So I have a couple of my friends grab her off the street, drag her into an alley, and tear her clothes. As a result, my daughter learns an important lesson, and never again walks home through the dangerous part of town, and my secret is safe.

 

Am I a good father?

 

There is a reasonable counterpoint to most of the anti-Egwene arguments (wrong, but reasonable ) But not here. Egwene's conduct is outrageous, and indefensible, and it takes some serious blinders and willful blindness to try to defend it.

[Luckers]

Frankly, in neither scenario are you a good father. Nor have you addressed Egwene and Nynaeve's situation in any meaningful way... but you asked about your potential to be a father, so this is what I have answered.

[capuga]

Frankly, in neither scenario are you a good father. Nor have you addressed Egwene and Nynaeve's situation in any meaningful way... but you asked about your potential to be a father, so this is what I have answered.

 

Actually, his analogy is an almost exact comparison to what Egwene did to Nynaeve in TAR. He wouldn't be a good father and Egwene is not a good friend (in this particular situation). Defending Egwene's actions in this particular situation is completely incomprehensable to me.

[Luckers]

Frankly, in neither scenario are you a good father. Nor have you addressed Egwene and Nynaeve's situation in any meaningful way... but you asked about your potential to be a father, so this is what I have answered.

 

Actually, his analogy is an almost exact comparison to what Egwene did to Nynaeve in TAR. He wouldn't be a good father and Egwene is not a good friend (in this particular situation). Defending Egwene's actions in this particular situation is completely incomprehensable to me.

 

His analogy presuposes a parental figure sending a child into what ammounts to a rape alley.

 

Egwene, as one adult to another, gave Nynaeve a harsh lesson--of which she was in complete and utter control.

 

A more accurate presentation would be to say...

 

I am concerned that my friend is walking home through a dangerous part of town. Seriously, there are rapist all around us. I've warned my friend of the dangers time and time again, but she stubbornly refuses to listen. Perhaps if i fake a situation in an entirely controlled enviroment, showing her the completely real and genuine threat she is in, she will understand the true danger. It's a horrible thing to do, but if it saves her life, I'll wear that.

 

Of course that isn't entirely accurate--there was an entirely selfish element to Egwene's actions after being caught out in the Dream where she shouldn't be, and with Nynaeve threatening to expose her--I've no desire to protect Egwene, but sensationalistic extrapolation such as offered by randsc achieves nothing.

[capuga]

That mostly reads as semantics to me to put a shinier face on Egwene's actions. And we've seen how easily dreams can get out of control in TAR. Having your friends rough up your daughter gives you about as much control over their actions as Egwene has over the dream. Or substitute "my wife's friend" for "daughter" if that's the part that bothers you. It's still an accurate analogy. If it sounds awful, it should, because Egwene's actions here were awful.

 

Of course that isn't entirely accurate--there was an entirely COMPLETELY selfish element to Egwene's actions after being caught out in the Dream where she shouldn't be, and with Nynaeve threatening to expose her--I've no desire to protect Egwene, but sensationalistic extrapolation such as offered by randsc achieves nothing.

 

And here is the important part of the situation (although I adjusted yours a little). Egwene had zero/zip/nada/zilch interest in teaching Nynaeve a lesson here. She didn't go into that encounter with the goal of teaching Nynaeve and her motivation for her treatment of Nynaeve was not for Nynaeve's benefit but her own (she doesn't even think that she's helping Nynaeve in her own mind). She just tells Nynaeve it is a lesson about TAR, because "I just dream mugged you to hide my own wrong doing" sounds kinda mean. I don't give people credit for unintended beneficial side-effects of their negative actions.

 

And, yes, I know that you weren't really arguing this point. This was more of a generalized response to those that have been defending Egwene's actions in this situation.

[Luckers]

Ok, let me ask this. Do you deny that she had a valid point? Whatever her goal in delivering it, was Egwene's point about the dangers of Nynaeve's cavalier attitude towards moving about in tel'aran'rhiod accurate?

[capuga]

Ok, let me ask this. Do you deny that she had a valid point? Whatever her goal in delivering it, was Egwene's point about the dangers of Nynaeve's cavalier attitude towards moving about in tel'aran'rhiod accurate?

 

Sure. But that wasn't the point of her actions.

 

Let's say you rob a bank and flee the scene. During the getaway you crash into another car, killing the other driver. It turns out that the other driver was a murderer and child molester on his way to do something terrible. Are you a hero for preventing this crime? No, of course not. Because that wasn't your intention. You were just trying to get away with your own crime.

 

Another extreme example to illustrate Egwene's situation. The fact that Nynaeve needed a lesson (debatable) and maybe benefitted by being more cautious in TAR after this, is irrelevant because Egwene was never actually trying to teach her anything. It was merely a side-effect of her cover up.

[Luckers]

My point is that Nynaeve is an adult. Worse, she's an adult whose walked into a neighbourhood of people armed with guns, weilding nothing but a pointy stick, arrogantly certain she can take care of herself. Whereupon Egwene put a gun to Nynaeve's head and told her to fuck off. It was perhaps the most decent thing she's ever done.

 

From there... yes, Egwene had her own reasons for doing it. Selfish reasons. Who cares? Nynaeve was not a child--she's not even an innocent or unknowing adult. She chose to be in TAR. She accepted the risks. Essentially, Nynaeve chose to hang out in the big boy playground, and Egwene got prissy with her and they had a wrestle, for which Nynaeve was massively unprepaired.

[Xcorpyo001]

Ok, let me ask this. Do you deny that she had a valid point? Whatever her goal in delivering it, was Egwene's point about the dangers of Nynaeve's cavalier attitude towards moving about in tel'aran'rhiod accurate?

 

 

Do you deny that she's teaching the lesson while doing the same thing herself?(the episodes with Moghe and Gawyn's dream are just two of the examples, not to mention the headaches)

Or telling Nynaeve that she lied to her only once, and lying is bad, while lying to her again?

The lesson is a good one, and even the part about not lying/not telling the whole truth to your friends.

But doing it to cover the same thing, while lying to Nynaeve, makes everything just a big joke.

 

 

From there... yes, Egwene had her own reasons for doing it. Selfish reasons. Who cares? Nynaeve was not a child--she's not even an innocent or unknowing adult. She chose to be in TAR. She accepted the risks. Essentially, Nynaeve chose to hang out in the big boy playground, and Egwene got prissy with her and they had a wrestle, for which Nynaeve was massively unprepaired.

 

Really now?

While Nynaeve captured Moghedien and helped Rand kill Rahvin in TaR, Egwene managed to get trapped in Gawyn's dream.

Nyn chose to be in TaR as well, and she knows part of the risks. At least she saw when Moghe attacked her. Egwene was oblivious to it.

Big boys playground indeed. LOL.

[Luckers]

Do you deny that she's teaching the lesson while doing the same thing herself?(the episodes with Moghe and Gawyn's dream are just two of the examples, not to mention the headaches)

 

Interesting question. Do I deny she's making the lesson whilst doing the same thing herself? Yes. She is entirely in control within that scene.

 

Do i deny that she has not had the same failings Nynaeve displays in this scene? No--indeed the scene between herself and Amys where Amys plays the monster is markedly similar, and for much the same reasons--a talented dreamwalker reigning in an arrogant amatuer in a harsh manner for their own good.

 

Her headaches, by the way, are the doing of Lanfear and Aran'gar, and have nothing to do with this.

 

Or telling Nynaeve that she lied to her only once, and lying is bad, while lying to her again?

The lesson is a good one, and even the part about not lying/not telling the whole truth to your friends.

But doing it to cover the same thing, while lying to Nynaeve, makes everything just a big joke.

 

 

I do not, and have never, denied Egwene's childishness.

 

I simply deny the expansion of that to touch on everything she does.

[Xcorpyo001]

Do you deny that she's teaching the lesson while doing the same thing herself?(the episodes with Moghe and Gawyn's dream are just two of the examples, not to mention the headaches)

 

Interesting question. Do I deny she's making the lesson whilst doing the same thing herself? Yes. She is entirely in control within that scene.

 

Do i deny that she has not had the same failings Nynaeve displays in this scene? No--indeed the scene between herself and Amys where Amys plays the monster is markedly similar, and for much the same reasons--a talented dreamwalker reigning in an arrogant amatuer in a harsh manner for their own good.

 

Her headaches, by the way, are the doing of Lanfear and Aran'gar, and have nothing to do with this.

 

Or telling Nynaeve that she lied to her only once, and lying is bad, while lying to her again?

The lesson is a good one, and even the part about not lying/not telling the whole truth to your friends.

But doing it to cover the same thing, while lying to Nynaeve, makes everything just a big joke.

 

 

I do not, and have never, denied Egwene's childishness.

 

I simply deny the expansion of that to touch on everything she does.

 

 

She is to weak after the 'fight' with Lanfear.

But the headaches are because she enters TaR, when she should be resting. She has headaches in the mornings, after being in TaR in her weaken state.

 

I wasn't asking if she is in control then. I was talking in general.

Do you deny that in the episode in which she 'tutors' Nynaeve about lying and being alone in TaR, she was trying to cover up the fact that she was lying to Nynaeve and was breaking her promises to the WO by going in TaR alone, whitout knowing all the dangers(Moghedien, Gawyn)?

She has more knowledge than Nynaeve, but not enough to be on her own. But she's sure she can handle everything, which she's proven wrong on more than one occasion in that book.

 

And one of the reasons for which Nynaeve and Elayne have to learn on their own is because she doesn't want to teach them.

After that episode with Nynaeve, she never talks to them in TaR. She comes, talks very fast so the girls can't ask anything, or yells at them and runs before they can talk back(Sheriam's study) or runs the second she sees them(when Nyn and Elayne are looking for the Bowl).

 

And yet, while stumbling by her own, and with help from Elayne, Nynaeve captures Moghedien, helps in killing Rahvin and finds the Bowl of the Winds(or its location).

What does Egwene manages to do while training with the WO and by herself, during that timeline?!?

Nynaeve+Elayne>>>>>>>>>>>>Egwene+WO+AS in TaR(I'm not talking about experience, although they managed well by themselves, but results).

No offence, but by that time, Egwene is all talk, and she uses her vast experience in TaR to make out with Gawyn in his dreams.

Later yes, she's better than all, but at that time(until the end of LoC) she should have listened to her own advice. Both about lying, and being alone in TaR.

[Himiko]

His analogy presuposes a parental figure sending a child into what ammounts to a rape alley.

 

Egwene, as one adult to another, gave Nynaeve a harsh lesson--of which she was in complete and utter control.

 

A more accurate presentation would be to say...

 

I am concerned that my friend is walking home through a dangerous part of town. Seriously, there are rapist all around us. I've warned my friend of the dangers time and time again, but she stubbornly refuses to listen. Perhaps if i fake a situation in an entirely controlled enviroment, showing her the completely real and genuine threat she is in, she will understand the true danger. It's a horrible thing to do, but if it saves her life, I'll wear that.

 

Of course that isn't entirely accurate--there was an entirely selfish element to Egwene's actions after being caught out in the Dream where she shouldn't be, and with Nynaeve threatening to expose her--I've no desire to protect Egwene, but sensationalistic extrapolation such as offered by randsc achieves nothing.

 

No offence, but your presentation is pretty much exactly the same as randsc's first suggestion, except that you have exchanged the word "friend" for "daughter", and then gone on about the great motivations your hypothetical person has for doing so. Except, as you then admit, Egwene's motivations aren't really anything to do with that, thus making your own scenario just as invalid. If your issue is the parent/child dynamic with the earlier examples, then fair enough. If we take this into account, added to the fact that most people in this discussion agree that Egwene was mostly, if not solely, motivated in her actions by trying to cover her own arse, whilst also agreeing that some of the points she made were fair ones, then perhaps a better scenario would be thus:

 

"I hang out in this dodgy area of town. I am aware of its dangers, but choose to hang out here anyway, because I'm seeing someone who lives here, and I know my parents would try and stop me if they found out. Recently, my friend began walking through this area on her way home from college- we know each other pretty well, and she sometimes talks to my parents. I was worried that if she found out that I was seeing this guy and hanging out here a lot without permission, she'd tell my parents. So, I got some of my boyfriends friends to grab her when she was walking home to scare her. They scratched her up a bit, and tore her clothes, and she ran off. She's doesn't walk down here anymore, so my secret's safe! But I realised afterwards that I probably did her a favour, because it WAS a dangerous area, after all, so its not like she wasn't at risk."

 

Admittedly, still not entirely accurate, as whilst Nynaeve avoids Egwene after this encounter, she doesn't avoid TAR, but by and large, would we agree that this is a reasonable comparison?

 

Don't get me wrong, I can understand that sometimes people can do bad/unfriendly things (ie. insulting and attacking Nynaeve) for the right reasons (to teach her a lesson in TAR). Except that we know from Egwene's own POV that her bad/unfriendly actions were motivated by much dodgier reasons of wanting her friend to keep quiet and keep herself out of trouble, and the "teaching of a lesson" was just a beneficial side effect. Especially galling given that, as others have said, she was doing exactly what she was chastising Nynaeve for (wandering TAR without permission or adequate training, whilst covering up the truth to make herself look better), IMO. (This last bit isn't really aimed at you, Luckers, I know you already said that you didn't deny this aspect of it)

[Xcorpyo001]

One more thing.

All who go on the 'she did her a favor' road seem to forget one very important thing.

The only sure way to make any woman in this series(especially Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, etc) to do something is to tell her not to do it.

Since that incident, Nyn tried to hide from Egwene(this way limiting the chances she can learn from her), but continued to walk through TaR anyway.

[WilsonC]

While it turned out that Egwene was in control of the situation, Egwene's superior knowledge of the dangers of TAR makes her actions worse in this situation. She knows how dangerous a nightmare can be, and she knows that her teachers, who she acknowledges as being more knowledgeable on the topic, have been quite clear that she's not ready to be in TAR safely on her own yet. Egwene was confident in her ability, and as she was correct that she could control the situation - however, what right does she have to gamble her friend's life on that confidence before the Wise Ones agree that she has enough control to be in TAR safely?

 

That's a major difference between when Egwene does this to Nynaeve and when Amys does the same to Egwene. Amys is a recognized master of TAR, whereas Egwene has talent and some training, but her teachers do not yet recognize her as someone who should be in TAR unsupervised; regardless of whether she was correct in her assessment of her own level of control, it did not fall to her to make that assessment, and had she been overestimated herself she would be placing her friend's life at risk.

[randsc]

The apologists seem to be losing track of the fact that Egwene has, in other contexts, INSISTED that Nynaeve move about in T'aR.

[Suttree]

That mostly reads as semantics to me to put a shinier face on Egwene's actions. And we've seen how easily dreams can get out of control in TAR. Having your friends rough up your daughter gives you about as much control over their actions as Egwene has over the dream. Or substitute "my wife's friend" for "daughter" if that's the part that bothers you. It's still an accurate analogy. If it sounds awful, it should, because Egwene's actions here were awful.

 

Of course that isn't entirely accurate--there was an entirely COMPLETELY selfish element to Egwene's actions after being caught out in the Dream where she shouldn't be, and with Nynaeve threatening to expose her--I've no desire to protect Egwene, but sensationalistic extrapolation such as offered by randsc achieves nothing.

 

And here is the important part of the situation (although I adjusted yours a little). Egwene had zero/zip/nada/zilch interest in teaching Nynaeve a lesson here. She didn't go into that encounter with the goal of teaching Nynaeve and her motivation for her treatment of Nynaeve was not for Nynaeve's benefit but her own (she doesn't even think that she's helping Nynaeve in her own mind). She just tells Nynaeve it is a lesson about TAR, because "I just dream mugged you to hide my own wrong doing" sounds kinda mean. I don't give people credit for unintended beneficial side-effects of their negative actions.

 

And, yes, I know that you weren't really arguing this point. This was more of a generalized response to those that have been defending Egwene's actions in this situation.

 

 

Hiring friends/thugs with independent thought and Egwene creating this "dream vision" aren't even remotely similar. Yes dreams get out of control in Tar but not when one person is actively creating the illusion. Don't think we have ever seen one of those get away from the person creating them and they can always make them vanish with a thought. So there is zero comparison between the two.

 

For the second part instead of committing adultery or having some other immoral intention Egwene is attempting to quickly learn skills that will help her fight the Shadow. What she did wasn't right but comparing the two scenarios is rather silly.

[capuga]

Hiring friends/thugs with independent thought and Egwene creating this "dream vision" aren't even remotely similar. Yes dreams get out of control in Tar but not when one person is actively creating the illusion. Don't think we have ever seen one of those get away from the person creating them and they can always make them vanish with a thought. So there is zero comparison between the two.

 

Again, shiny semantics. The analogy doesn't break down because your friends might, hypothetically get out of control. The key to the comparison is that Egwene was covering her wrong doing and the lesson was unintended.

 

For the second part instead of committing adultery or having some other immoral intention Egwene is attempting to quickly learn skills that will help her fight the Shadow. What she did wasn't right but comparing the two scenarios is rather silly.

 

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.