An Aes Sedai queen in Andor

[Xcorpyo001]

An AS is bound by the same rules as any other member of the WT, although she has a fewer number of superiors. She has to obey the Amyrlin, never betray the WT, etc.

And she would have been named queen on the spot, whatever her rank in the WT was. But she was forced to stay in Salidar against her wishes, and Andor was without leadership for months, only because a bunch of rebel AS with no legal power and no Amyrlin believed it was for the best(which it wasn't, because Rand would have never used her).

And many AS(the Hall included) still don't recognize her as an AS(the only one truly accepted is Nynaeve). Elayne didn't passed the test for AS or even swore the oaths.

 

Think you are just looking at it in a far too black and white way. The Amrlyin needs to use a very sophisticated political "give and take" to get anything done and keep her reign strong.

 

My problem with everything you keep putting forth is you make a good deal of assumptions. Like they would have found the bowl with just Nyn, Elayne would have been named Queen etc. You do realize how important it was for Elayne to be seen not to take the Lion Throne from Rand? Not to mention Rand was only the Regent, he never conquered Andor and it was not his to give.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes, Dyelin would not have thrown her support for Elayne and she would never have gained the majority.

 

In addition before that he Andoran Nobles were ready to try and force Rand out...

LoC

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

and the general populace resented his position...

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

Add to this Bashere discussing how she couldn't use the Aiel or Rand's soldiers to take the throne and I hope you start to see it's not nearly as clear cut as her showing up and being named Queen.

 

In terms of the Salidar AS no idea why you keep making a point of them not having legal power. Once they split they had just as much authority as the WT. Just look at them standing on equal ground when dealing with rulers in Ebou Dar etc. Not to mention everyone of Eggy's decrees as Amrylin have stood and not been challenged. Most were pretty unpopular, if there was any question of legal uncertainty surely her opponents would have used that to do away with them. One of those was declaring Elayne AS and we know how she reacts when anyone questions her right to the claim...

KoD "House on Full Moon Street"

Elayne rose and stared down at Duhara. Usually, someone seated held the advantage over someone standing, but she made her stare hard and her voice harder. She wanted to slap the woman’s face! “I was raised Aes Sedai by Egwene al’Vere on the day she herself was raised Amyrlin. I chose the Green Ajah and was admitted. Don’t you ever say I’m not Aes Sedai, Duhara. Burn me if I’ll stand still for it!”

 

 

AS(rebels or not) not allowing her to go and take the throne for herself is a fact. And it was in conflict with her position as a daughter-heir/future queen. So this conflict of interests is a real problem.

Yes, Rand was regent, not king, hence the constant power struggles he had to quench while Elaine was kept in Salidar against her wishes and later in ED, this time on her own volition.

Rand had the troops(and the bloodline) to force the nobles of Caemlyn to recognize him as king(Morgasse opened that door with Gaebril) if he really wanted that position...the excuse Siuan used to keep her in Salidar(being able to lie worked like a charm for her while she was in Salidar)

I don't longer care about the bowl. It was a mistake to bring that up in the first place.

If she went there directly from Salidar, Rand would have left with his troops and let her take the throne by her own power, if she wished it so.

She may consider herself AS, but many full AS don't see it that way, not until she'll swear the oaths and take the test, just like Nynaeve.

And even a full AS has to abide by the laws of the WT, and follow the Amyrlin orders, so we have a conflict of interests.

 

And her statement that she took the throne without Rand's help is a little far-fetched. Rand ordered his troops to leave Caemlyn when she returned.

She had serious problems with soldiers outside the city. Trying to take the city by force from Rand's Aiel and Bashere and his troops would have been a real feat.

[Suttree]

Rand had the troops(and the bloodline) to force the nobles of Caemlyn to recognize him as king(Morgasse opened that door with Gaebril) if he really wanted that position...

 

This would have been a disaster per Dyelin's quote above and the sentiment of the general populace. Could Rand and his Aiel have defeated the nobels and commoners raised against him? Think it is clear he could have, but in significantly weakening the country with the largest Army in Randland with TG approaching it would have been the very definition of a phyrric victory.

[SuperFade]

Please let's not get into yet another debate over whether or not Rand 'gave' Andor to Elayne or whether he could have held it if he wished. Those arguments go on forever and never end well.

 

On-topic, I think it's inevitable that there will eventually be a conflict of interest between the White Tower and Elayne as Queen. There will also doubtless be discontent within the other noble houses should Elayne take advantage of her vastly longer lifespan to rule for hundreds of years as well, no matter how good of a job she does. And her children will channel as well, which brings up even more issues. I doubt any of these problems will be resolved with the little time we have left, though.

[Xcorpyo001]

Rand had the troops(and the bloodline) to force the nobles of Caemlyn to recognize him as king(Morgasse opened that door with Gaebril) if he really wanted that position...

 

This would have been a disaster per Dyelin's quote above and the sentiment of the general populace. Could Rand and his Aiel have defeated the nobels and commoners raised against him? Think it is clear he could have, but in significantly weakening the country with the largest Army in Randland with TG approaching it would have been the very definition of a phyrric victory.

 

 

His mother was loved in Andor and Daughter-Heir to boot.

When he'll tell them that she made the ultimate sacrifice just to make sure the Dragon Reborned is born, thus saving the world, they will beg him to take the throne. Don't forget the Axe Ta'veren effect.

Dyelin will probably want to have his babies if the Pattern demanded it to be so.

And he did had the troops to take it anyway if everything else failed. The peasants don't care who's on the throne as long they have stability and a just ruler...which Rand was. He proved that again and again.

 

But SuperFade is right. This isn't going anywhere.

I'll say it for one last time.

There was a conflict of interests way back in Salidar, there is one at the FoM, and if things remain like they are at the present(queen and AS), there will be more in the future.

[Suttree]

Rand had the troops(and the bloodline) to force the nobles of Caemlyn to recognize him as king(Morgasse opened that door with Gaebril) if he really wanted that position...

 

This would have been a disaster per Dyelin's quote above and the sentiment of the general populace. Could Rand and his Aiel have defeated the nobels and commoners raised against him? Think it is clear he could have, but in significantly weakening the country with the largest Army in Randland with TG approaching it would have been the very definition of a phyrric victory.

 

 

His mother was loved in Andor and Daughter-Heir to boot.

When he'll tell them that she made the ultimate sacrifice just to make sure the Dragon Reborned is born, thus saving the world, they will beg him to take the throne. Don't forget the Axe Ta'veren effect.

Dyelin will probably want to have his babies if the Pattern demanded it to be so.

And he did had the troops to take it anyway if everything else failed. The peasants don't care who's on the throne as long they have stability and a just ruler...which Rand was. He proved that again and again.

 

But SuperFade is right. This isn't going anywhere.

I'll say it for one last time.

There was a conflict of interests way back in Salidar, there is one at the FoM, and if things remain like they are at the present(queen and AS), there will be more in the future.

 

The point I'm trying to get at is all you keep doing is ignoring evidence from the books and presenting potential what if scenarios. I have provided quotes from the nobles and commoners showing their inclination to drive him out of Andor if he had attempted to take the throne. That is what actually happened in the story. Plus we have Bashere, one of the great captains who says point blank that Elayne couldn't use Rand's forces as they are viewed as outsiders. On top of all that you are severely underestimating the scars left over from the Aiel War. The pulse of the country is very clear on this point, both commoners and nobles would have risen against him.

 

Not sure why you keep mentioning he had the troops to take it, no one is disputing that but see my post above as to why that isn't feasible. Rand can not afford any phyrric victories that weaken the light at this point. Andor has the largest army in Randland, why decimate it with TG approaching?

[David Selig]

His mother was loved in Andor and Daughter-Heir to boot.

When he'll tell them that she made the ultimate sacrifice just to make sure the Dragon Reborned is born, thus saving the world, they will beg him to take the throne.

Imagine how this would go:

 

"Hey, I took over Caemlyn and now I want to rule Andor. But you shouldn't fight me, because I happen to be the son of a previous Daughter-Heir who disappeared without a trace. She went to the Aiel, became a Maiden of the Spear and then died on Dragonmount. A guy from Two Rivers found me as a newborn and adopted me. "

 

That's such an unlikely sounding story with zero evidence that every Andoran would think it's a fabrication by Rand to justify his takeover of Andor and would probably consider it insulting he didn't come up with a less ridiculous one. They'd accept him easier if he had just said "I have the armies so I am in charge from now on".

[JKN-SW]

Well, there have been numerous mentions of how much he looks like both his mother and uncle. That would probably give some backing for the story. And of course the Aiel know the story as well. So it's not all that far fetched, really. Not saying it would have been a good idea, but feasible.

[Suttree]

Was wondering is their any historical precedent in the WoT for a Queen that had issues within her country based on being AS?

 

Yes I know the example of Manetheren but that was hardly Eldrene's fault. It was an isolated incident based on Tetsuan's(who was stripped of "staff and stole") jealousy and outside of her control. David reminded me of the example of Mabriam en Shereed who was very successful and integral in bringing about The Compact of the Ten Nations. I'm looking for any instance in Randland history where there were the type of issues that people raise as potential stumbling block for Elayne?

[Xcorpyo001]

Was wondering is their any historical precedent in the WoT for a Queen that had issues within her country based on being AS?

 

Yes I know the example of Manetheren but that was hardly Eldrene's fault. It was an isolated incident based on Tetsuan's(who was stripped of "staff and stole") jealousy and outside of her control. David reminded me of the example of Mabriam en Shereed who was very successful and integral in bringing about The Compact of the Ten Nations. I'm looking for any instance in Randland history where there were the type of issues that people raise as potential stumbling block for Elayne?

 

 

Manetheren. And we do know how that ended up.

It's easy to put blame on a single person, but if the other AS really wanted to help, they could have punished her before of go there and help without the Amyrlin consent.

They knew it was a bad decision, and they went with it anyway.

And take her stove and still her...it's not that big punishment for letting an entire city in the hands of Shadowspawn.

It's like USA capturing Bin Laden(which is a heroin addict...just an example), and punish him by not giving him heroin anymore. And force him to wash dishes.

[David Selig]

Faile said at one point that every Queen of Manetheren had been an Aes Sedai, and the country was doing great for many centuries.

 

On the other hand, we have this tidbit from Moiraine:

 

But she still must keep the full extent of the girl’s potential secret. Would the people of Andor knowingly accept Elayne on the Lion Throne after Morgase if they knew? Not just a queen trained in Tar Valon according to custom, but a full Aes Sedai? In all of recorded history there had been only a handful of queens with the right to be called Aes Sedai, and the few who let it be known had all lived to regret it.

 

I never realised Mabriam was an Aes Sedai and a Queen at the same time until now, BTW. This looks like an exception to what Moiraine claimed...

[Xcorpyo001]

Faile said at one point that every Queen of Manetheren had been an Aes Sedai, and the country was doing great for many centuries.

 

On the other hand, we have this tidbit from Moiraine:

 

But she still must keep the full extent of the girl’s potential secret. Would the people of Andor knowingly accept Elayne on the Lion Throne after Morgase if they knew? Not just a queen trained in Tar Valon according to custom, but a full Aes Sedai? In all of recorded history there had been only a handful of queens with the right to be called Aes Sedai, and the few who let it be known had all lived to regret it.

 

I never realised Mabriam was an Aes Sedai and a Queen at the same time until now, BTW. This looks like an exception to what Moiraine claimed...

 

 

 

nice quote. Totally forgot about that one.

At the moment, Egwene and Elayne are close. But that can change. Maybe the next Amyrlin will not be the same. And we will have the Manetheren incident all over again(or a direct confrontation between WT and Andor+Cairhien).

Only this time the queen can use the Kin(maybe), Black Tower(they will probably go against AS), and dragons. My money is on Andor.

[Suttree]

Was wondering is their any historical precedent in the WoT for a Queen that had issues within her country based on being AS?

 

Yes I know the example of Manetheren but that was hardly Eldrene's fault. It was an isolated incident based on Tetsuan's(who was stripped of "staff and stole") jealousy and outside of her control. David reminded me of the example of Mabriam en Shereed who was very successful and integral in bringing about The Compact of the Ten Nations. I'm looking for any instance in Randland history where there were the type of issues that people raise as potential stumbling block for Elayne?

 

 

Manetheren. And we do know how that ended up.

It's easy to put blame on a single person, but if the other AS really wanted to help, they could have punished her before of go there and help without the Amyrlin consent.

They knew it was a bad decision, and they went with it anyway.

And take her stove and still her...it's not that big punishment for letting an entire city in the hands of Shadowspawn.

It's like USA capturing Bin Laden(which is a heroin addict...just an example), and punish him by not giving him heroin anymore. And force him to wash dishes.

 

Just to clarify, the fact is the other AS didn't know. Once Tetsuan's actions were discovered she was stripped of her title, stilled and forced to be a scullery maid in the WT. They did not know what she was doing ahead of time.

 

Given Faile's claim Manetheren isn't really an example. Wonder if there are any out there we are forgetting?

[David Selig]

I found another relevant passage, Elaida talking to Elayne:

 

TDR, Ch. 17

 

You will be the first Queen of Andor ever to be Aes Sedai. The first queen anywhere to be Aes Sedai in over a thousand years. You will be one of the strongest of us since the Breaking of the World, perhaps strong enough to be the first ruler since the Breaking to openly tell the world she is Aes Sedai.

Elaida claims there's been no queen ever who's openly acknowledged to be an Aes Sedai. Moiraine's thoughts, which I quoted earlier, are different - according to her there's been a few. Naturally I trust Moiraine much more since Elaida is an idiot plus Moiraine as someone who could've made a claim for a throne had a personal interest in learning all the history of the Aes Sedai queens. Plus those thoughts were repeated in New Spring too.

 

The weird thing is that IIRC Elayne never thinks of the history of Aes Sedai queens...

[MasterAblar]

Faile said at one point that every Queen of Manetheren had been an Aes Sedai, and the country was doing great for many centuries.

 

On the other hand, we have this tidbit from Moiraine:

 

But she still must keep the full extent of the girl’s potential secret. Would the people of Andor knowingly accept Elayne on the Lion Throne after Morgase if they knew? Not just a queen trained in Tar Valon according to custom, but a full Aes Sedai? In all of recorded history there had been only a handful of queens with the right to be called Aes Sedai, and the few who let it be known had all lived to regret it.

 

I never realised Mabriam was an Aes Sedai and a Queen at the same time until now, BTW. This looks like an exception to what Moiraine claimed...

 

 

 

nice quote. Totally forgot about that one.

At the moment, Egwene and Elayne are close. But that can change. Maybe the next Amyrlin will not be the same. And we will have the Manetheren incident all over again(or a direct confrontation between WT and Andor+Cairhien).

Only this time the queen can use the Kin(maybe), Black Tower(they will probably go against AS), and dragons. My money is on Andor.

 

The BT would have to have a real good reason to set themselves against the WT. I don't think either would want a direct confrontation between the two.

[Xcorpyo001]

Was wondering is their any historical precedent in the WoT for a Queen that had issues within her country based on being AS?

 

Yes I know the example of Manetheren but that was hardly Eldrene's fault. It was an isolated incident based on Tetsuan's(who was stripped of "staff and stole") jealousy and outside of her control. David reminded me of the example of Mabriam en Shereed who was very successful and integral in bringing about The Compact of the Ten Nations. I'm looking for any instance in Randland history where there were the type of issues that people raise as potential stumbling block for Elayne?

 

 

Manetheren. And we do know how that ended up.

It's easy to put blame on a single person, but if the other AS really wanted to help, they could have punished her before of go there and help without the Amyrlin consent.

They knew it was a bad decision, and they went with it anyway.

And take her stove and still her...it's not that big punishment for letting an entire city in the hands of Shadowspawn.

It's like USA capturing Bin Laden(which is a heroin addict...just an example), and punish him by not giving him heroin anymore. And force him to wash dishes.

 

Just to clarify, the fact is the other AS didn't know. Once Tetsuan's actions were discovered she was stripped of her title, stilled and forced to be a scullery maid in the WT. They did not know what she was doing ahead of time.

 

Given Faile's claim Manetheren isn't really an example. Wonder if there are any out there we are forgetting?

 

 

Nope. Egwene just managed to get her hands on the eyes-and-ears of the Blue Ajah. Which is good in a way.

But the heads of the Ajah and the head of spy network for the Ajahs will know first hand about it. They will just relay the info to the Amyrlin.

And the king of Man sent help requests to every country. Each had an AS adviser(which probably advised against). They knew.

[Thrasymachus]

I think entirely too much is being made of the potential for conflicts of interest between Andor and the White Tower. These conflicts are no greater or lesser than would exist in politically arranged marriages between the ruling families of competing nations. Fast forward 500 years, Elayne has had a daughter who marries Darlin and Moiraine's cousin's kid, who then have a daughter who becomes Daughter-heir. That kid would have competing interests between Andor and Tear. These sorts of conflicts are inherent in any monarchical system.

 

But in the case of the White Tower as a potentially competing interest, the consequences of conflicts are even less pressing than the sorts of conflicts that would arise out of a mixed parentage. The is because the White Tower has virtually no enforcement mechanism on the Aes Sedai who are its members other than ostracism. The split in the White Tower and the incompetence of Elaida's faction are the perfect example of this. Elaida and the Tower Hall have no power to compel Sisters to return to Tar Valon, and they can set all the penances they like, if the Sister in question is not there to be forced to serve them, they're worth about as much as the paper they're printed on. If the Aes Sedai ruler of a nation felt like they needed to tell the Amrylin and the Hall to go jump in a lake, there's jack-all the White Tower could do about it. They can't go to war, because of the Oaths. They only control trade along the river, and there are multiple other routes for trade to get through. Other nations aren't going to want to get between a dispute between Aes Sedai, so these relations would largely remain unchanged for fear of appearing to take a side. Manetheren is a very unique case, the world was enmeshed in the Trolloc Wars for crying out loud. How often is the White Tower going to be in a position to "punish" a wayward Aes Sedai ruler by letting an enemy army crush their country?

 

The reason historical Aes Sedai rulers have kept their Aes Sedai title relatively secret has more to do with the attitudes of the general population towards channelers and Aes Sedai generally. They don't trust them, and they blame them for the devastation of the Breaking, and not without reason. The Whitecloak philosophy was either dominant or at least held major social sway. And if the Sister in question was weak enough in the Power, not only would she lack sufficient capacity to protect herself against the inevitable assassination attempt, but it would be difficult to convince the nobles and other leaders that the Queen is independently sovereign from the White Tower. When you are a goddess among Aes Sedai, it's easier to convince others that you won't let other Aes Sedai push you around. More than that, the White Tower itself may not desire the connection to be public. If your ruler is an Aes Sedai, then every social or climate problem is suddenly the "witches" fault. Either they didn't do enough or they're doing too much, but the Light alone knows what they're doing. But if the ruler is powerful enough, they can allow the connection to be publicized because it becomes much easier to foist blame off on the ruler herself, rather than being carried by the whole White Tower. Indeed, it is more than likely this dynamic that has caused previous Aes Sedai rulers who allowed the connection to be made public to have unfortunate ends. The White Tower doesn't want to take responsibility for the state of affairs in the country, but the ruler in question is not strong enough politically or with the Power to meet the pressures of the connection being made public. The Tower will clearly allow a ruler to fail or fall rather than tarnish the effectiveness and influence of the Tower as a whole among all nations, and they are probably less forgiving with Aes Sedai rulers than with normals to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

 

As for the specific instance of Elayne not being allowed to return to Caemlyn prior to being made AS, and then going to Ebu Dar for the Bowl once she was, others have explained the motivations here. The politics of the situation would have made things at least as difficult for Elayne to show up when Rand was occupying Caemlyn as they were when she finally did get there after using the Bowl. Even when Elayne doesn't agree with the decision to leave her behind, she acknowledges the reasoning behind it. And it's a good thing she did because it allowed her to go get the Bowl and fix the weather. Andor wasn't suffering for the lack of a monarch puttering around in the palace, but it was suffering from the extended heat wave and drought. And my gut tells me that if Elayne had shown up in Caemlyn with the rebel's delegation, she would have been assassinated by one of the other claimants to the throne, and the Second War of Succession would have been even longer and bloodier and devastate far more of Andor than it had. Elayne needed to let Rand abandon Caemlyn so the competing heads of the noble houses would retire back to their estates before she could come in and safely occupy the capitol. And at the time the decision to leave Elayne behind was made, Elayne was not the Queen and was still just Accepted. She did not have the authority, or more importantly, the means to override that decision. As Queen, she has both the authority and the means to assert and enforce her sovereignty.

[Suttree]

Was wondering is their any historical precedent in the WoT for a Queen that had issues within her country based on being AS?

 

Yes I know the example of Manetheren but that was hardly Eldrene's fault. It was an isolated incident based on Tetsuan's(who was stripped of "staff and stole") jealousy and outside of her control. David reminded me of the example of Mabriam en Shereed who was very successful and integral in bringing about The Compact of the Ten Nations. I'm looking for any instance in Randland history where there were the type of issues that people raise as potential stumbling block for Elayne?

 

 

Manetheren. And we do know how that ended up.

It's easy to put blame on a single person, but if the other AS really wanted to help, they could have punished her before of go there and help without the Amyrlin consent.

They knew it was a bad decision, and they went with it anyway.

And take her stove and still her...it's not that big punishment for letting an entire city in the hands of Shadowspawn.

It's like USA capturing Bin Laden(which is a heroin addict...just an example), and punish him by not giving him heroin anymore. And force him to wash dishes.

 

Just to clarify, the fact is the other AS didn't know. Once Tetsuan's actions were discovered she was stripped of her title, stilled and forced to be a scullery maid in the WT. They did not know what she was doing ahead of time.

 

Given Faile's claim Manetheren isn't really an example. Wonder if there are any out there we are forgetting?

 

 

Nope. Egwene just managed to get her hands on the eyes-and-ears of the Blue Ajah. Which is good in a way.

But the heads of the Ajah and the head of spy network for the Ajahs will know first hand about it. They will just relay the info to the Amyrlin.

And the king of Man sent help requests to every country. Each had an AS adviser(which probably advised against). They knew.

 

For whatever reason you have a habit in your posts of creating potential scenarios in your head and not going off what the story actually says. Everyone knew Manetheren needed help, what they didn't know is Tetsuan intervened to stop it coming. The records we have on this talk about her being punished once her actions were discovered by the Hall.

[Himiko]

I think entirely too much is being made of the potential for conflicts of interest between Andor and the White Tower. These conflicts are no greater or lesser than would exist in politically arranged marriages between the ruling families of competing nations. Fast forward 500 years, Elayne has had a daughter who marries Darlin and Moiraine's cousin's kid, who then have a daughter who becomes Daughter-heir. That kid would have competing interests between Andor and Tear. These sorts of conflicts are inherent in any monarchical system.

 

I appreciate the rest of your points, and understand what you mean by the WT having little real practical authority to punish people (I'll get to this later), but I don't agree that these two are exactly the same things. The Queen of Andor being AS means that the Queen of Andor is under the direct rule of the Amyrlin Seat. I hope that Elayne would always rule in Andor's best interests, even if not necessarily in the interests of the WT and the AS, but bear in mind, if Egwene is replaced by a new Amyrlin, who is not Elayne's friend, or even if Egwene remains in the seat- the WT have sent AS to put pressure on rulers before. Even the Amyrlin Seat does, sometimes. And those rulers were not members of the tower, and under no real authority from the WT or its leader. Elayne is. Whether or not the WT has a right to have a political say in how Andor is ruled, does not necessarily mean that they will see it that way. Even Egwene is likely to want to gain some advantage from having an AS queen there, though the fact Elayne is her friend might stop her from putting the pressure on too much.

 

Basically, Elayne might find herself pressured by the WT, whether they have any right to have a say in her rule or not- that's how they've operated for many years, for better or worse, and with far less claim than they have in this case. Elayne seems to think that it will be simple enough to rule Andor whilst still following all laws and customs of the WT herself, but that doesn't depend just on her- it depends whether the WT decide they have a stake in events in Andor, it depends what political decisions she will have to make, it might even depend on what her people think of having a monarch bound to serve another monarch (even if Elayne doesn't see it that way, she IS openly Aes Sedai, and her people might well see it that way, regardless of what is actually the case). Of course it won't end in all out way, but I CAN see Elayne either "retiring" into the Kin, out of the White Tower, or possibly leaving the throne to her children, once they've grown, to return to the WT and be AS.

[Xcorpyo001]

For whatever reason you have a habit in your posts of creating potential scenarios in your head and not going off what the story actually says. Everyone knew Manetheren needed help, what they didn't know is Tetsuan intervened to stop it coming. The records we have on this talk about her being punished once her actions were discovered by the Hall.

 

 

Manet sent request for aid everywhere. In the Trolloc Wars there was an entire alliance of nations, most likely led by the WT.

Now, the story.

-the king was winning a battle somewhere.

-they found out there is a big force heading towards Manet.

-they started going there themselves; they probably sent requests for help to Allaince HQ, WT, every king, lord, etc

-they get to Man before the Trollocs(barely)

-they receive a message that help is on the way from someone they trust....they have to hold for 3 days.

-they fight for almost two weeks, they are loosing, nobody is sending any help.

They sacrifice themselves to allow some citizens to escape. The End.

So during all this time, not even a single sister other than the Amyrlin found out about this?!?

 

-the Sitters and head of spy networks(run by the Ajahs, not Amyrlin) had to know

-the leaders of the nations had to know

-soldiers, entire regions that the Trollocs passed through to get to Manet(600 leagues from the Blight?!?...maybe closer because they were attacking anywhere)

-all the AS coordonating the fight against the Shadow.

-all the AS advisors following the leaders.

All the AS sent to convince the other leaders to not send any help, although Manet soldiers helped them every single time

And not one single AS knew about this until after the fight was over?!? Very unlikely, potential scenarios aside.

 

 

 

@Thrasymachus

From what I understand from your post, Elayne can simply chose to disobey the orders of the WT. But that will make her a rebel, and the Amyrlin can just take her ring away, which it be just a fashion statement if she can't follow the rules of the WT.

Elaida didn't forced the Salidar rebels to return because they were too many.

But she ordered the spies to kidnap most of the lonely As they could find, and nobody had a problem with that.

 

Elayne was forced to stay in Salidar(before the bowl) because Siuan believed Rand will use her to take the thrones. Which was plain stupid.

When she returned as a semiAS, he was still in control. If Rand happened to be in Cairhien, that is another matter. But his flag was in Caemlyn, his troops outside and inside the city, just as the first time. His troops left the city because he wanted them out(he told them to remain there until her retur), not because they were afraid of Elayne and her invisible and non-existent army.

[Thrasymachus]

She'd have to have access to her hand to take her ring away, and Elayne is far too strong in the Power to be overwhelmed by anything other than a circle of three. The Salidar Sitters decided not to send Elayne for multiple reasons. 1. They knew about her romantic interest in Rand, and didn't want Elayne to become an obstacle in their negotiations with him. 2. Elayne had rediscovered how to make ter'angreal and invert weaves and hide channeling, they wanted her at Salidar to continue to teach the Sisters. 3. The political stability of Andor was itself in question with Rand in control of Caemlyn and the legitimacy of a hand-over of power, but stable enough. Rand had all but abandoned Caemlyn by the time Elayne gets back there. He had to sneak back in just so they could do the three-way bonding and Elayne could get knocked up.

 

And it's also a mistake to think that the Amrylin Seat rules the Aes Sedai. She rules the Island and City of Tar Valon, together with the Hall, and has the status of being leader of a club for the AS. Sisters almost always have a choice in whether to accept a penance or go into exile if they've ticked off the Amrylin for some reason, unless they break Tower Law, and often even then they have a choice to go into exile. Indeed, it's strongly implied that sisters often self-impose exile during the rule of an Amrylin they dislike or politically disagree with, sometime choosing to return after a regime change with no other consequences. Elaida's forcible recall of wayward sisters not only goes against Tower custom, but strongly skirts Tower Law itself, and is a major factor in the division within the White Tower when she controls it. The Aes Sedai themselves are a far more democratic organization than any of the monarchies it influences. As such, the White Tower would have no greater influence over an Aes Sedai ruler than it would over any other ruler. The only thing it truly gains is a ruler who is not automatically disposed to distrust them and/or conceal their influence. They would send advisers and try to manipulate and influence the political situation regardless, but if the Amrylin tried to give a direct order to an Aes Sedai ruler, that Aes Sedai has all the authority she needs merely being Aes Sedai to ignore it if she so chooses.

[Suttree]

For whatever reason you have a habit in your posts of creating potential scenarios in your head and not going off what the story actually says. Everyone knew Manetheren needed help, what they didn't know is Tetsuan intervened to stop it coming. The records we have on this talk about her being punished once her actions were discovered by the Hall.

 

 

Manet sent request for aid everywhere. In the Trolloc Wars there was an entire alliance of nations, most likely led by the WT.

Now, the story.

-the king was winning a battle somewhere.

-they found out there is a big force heading towards Manet.

-they started going there themselves; they probably sent requests for help to Allaince HQ, WT, every king, lord, etc

-they get to Man before the Trollocs(barely)

-they receive a message that help is on the way from someone they trust....they have to hold for 3 days.

-they fight for almost two weeks, they are loosing, nobody is sending any help.

They sacrifice themselves to allow some citizens to escape. The End.

So during all this time, not even a single sister other than the Amyrlin found out about this?!?

 

-the Sitters and head of spy networks(run by the Ajahs, not Amyrlin) had to know

-the leaders of the nations had to know

-soldiers, entire regions that the Trollocs passed through to get to Manet(600 leagues from the Blight?!?...maybe closer because they were attacking anywhere)

-all the AS coordonating the fight against the Shadow.

-all the AS advisors following the leaders.

All the AS sent to convince the other leaders to not send any help, although Manet soldiers helped them every single time

And not one single AS knew about this until after the fight was over?!? Very unlikely, potential scenarios aside.

 

Obviously more than the Armylin knew. But much like Elaida's idiotic schemes it must have been a small inner circle. The wording is clear, once the Hall found out she was punished. Based on that the Sitters did not know that the Amrylin stepped in to intervene and stop help coming.

 

Are you suggesting that the entire WT was complicit in secretly orchestrating Manetheren's fall? To what end?

[Xcorpyo001]

 

 

Obviously more than the Armylin knew. But much like Elaida's idiotic schemes it must have been a small inner circle. The wording is clear, once the Hall found out she was punished. Based on that the Sitters did not know that the Amrylin stepped in to intervene and stop help coming.

 

Are you suggesting that the entire WT was complicit in secretly orchestrating Manetheren's fall? To what end?

 

 

I'm saying they should have acted sooner. At least send some sisters who weren't completely under the Amyrlin's control(I don't think that only the inner-circle found out about it, unless it was a huge one).

If they deliberated for several days about what to do, how to have the votes to take her down from the Amyrlin seat, they lost a lot of time.

Maybe they believed that that AS queen needed to be taught a lesson, but that Manetheren will still win the fight, even by themselves, but with heavy casualties, and the queen would have been brought down by a peg or three.

And she was the only one punished. What about the many others that followed those orders blindly? When they do something good, every single AS jumps to take credit. When they mess up badly, only the Amyrlin is responsible.

The slow response(or lack of) of the WT put the future of the world in danger on more than one occasion.

 

 

 

She'd have to have access to her hand to take her ring away, and Elayne is far too strong in the Power to be overwhelmed by anything other than a circle of three. The Salidar Sitters decided not to send Elayne for multiple reasons. 1. They knew about her romantic interest in Rand, and didn't want Elayne to become an obstacle in their negotiations with him. 2. Elayne had rediscovered how to make ter'angreal and invert weaves and hide channeling, they wanted her at Salidar to continue to teach the Sisters. 3. The political stability of Andor was itself in question with Rand in control of Caemlyn and the legitimacy of a hand-over of power, but stable enough. Rand had all but abandoned Caemlyn by the time Elayne gets back there. He had to sneak back in just so they could do the three-way bonding and Elayne could get knocked up.

 

And it's also a mistake to think that the Amrylin Seat rules the Aes Sedai. She rules the Island and City of Tar Valon, together with the Hall, and has the status of being leader of a club for the AS. Sisters almost always have a choice in whether to accept a penance or go into exile if they've ticked off the Amrylin for some reason, unless they break Tower Law, and often even then they have a choice to go into exile. Indeed, it's strongly implied that sisters often self-impose exile during the rule of an Amrylin they dislike or politically disagree with, sometime choosing to return after a regime change with no other consequences. Elaida's forcible recall of wayward sisters not only goes against Tower custom, but strongly skirts Tower Law itself, and is a major factor in the division within the White Tower when she controls it. The Aes Sedai themselves are a far more democratic organization than any of the monarchies it influences. As such, the White Tower would have no greater influence over an Aes Sedai ruler than it would over any other ruler. The only thing it truly gains is a ruler who is not automatically disposed to distrust them and/or conceal their influence. They would send advisers and try to manipulate and influence the political situation regardless, but if the Amrylin tried to give a direct order to an Aes Sedai ruler, that Aes Sedai has all the authority she needs merely being Aes Sedai to ignore it if she so chooses.

 

 

Elayne is 'strong' enough to be ko-ed by a cup of tea(with forkroot). If the WT wants her, they'll have her.

Any leader of a country is bound by obligation to come to WT if summoned(even the leader of the Children of the Light). And once there...

Her connection with Rand is not such a big issue. It will actually be an asset because Rand actually trusts Elayne. And they still send someone in love with the guy with their delegation(Siuan knew about that).

He left Caemlyn, His troops didn't.

And about the secret visit: he wanted to visit Nynaeve in secret, not Elayne&co. And he had good reasons..he was hiding from a Asha'man hit squad, and he wanted some alone time to put some plans in motion. The babies+bonding came as a surprise to him.

 

 

Elaida forced some rules, but she also made a precedent. Now other Amyrlin can make the same decisions, because there were made in the past, and they didn't made lows to stop others from repeating them.

And since Egwene became Amyrlin, the position gained more power. Use of the Ajah spies, sole prosecution with dealings with the rulers, etc. The last one will be very cool in the future. If they defeat the DO for good, the rest of the WT will have nothing to do, because only the Amyrlin can deal with the rulers(so can stop/start wars, slap them around Cads way, etc).

 

 

And let's leave the WT out of it for a second.

An AS as a queen. Bye bye any chance to an aliance with Amadicia or any other country in which the Children have control.

A marat'damane as queen? Not very good considering half the map is under Seachan control. I don't see a lot of love between Andor and the Seachan territories in the future.

Not to mention that some neutral countries will keep their distance from Andor because they'll not want to piss off the Seachan.

It was Tear or Illian where AS where not very loved? So a lot of cold from those regions as well.

Oh, and most of the villages in Andor believe some stories about AS being Darkfriends(remember the fight between Rand and Egwene before Baerlon). I don't think a war in which some female Dreadlords will kill many of them can improve their view on the matter.

 

Bottom line...I still think queen and AS is a bad combo. So many things can go very wrong.

[Suttree]

 

 

Obviously more than the Armylin knew. But much like Elaida's idiotic schemes it must have been a small inner circle. The wording is clear, once the Hall found out she was punished. Based on that the Sitters did not know that the Amrylin stepped in to intervene and stop help coming.

 

Are you suggesting that the entire WT was complicit in secretly orchestrating Manetheren's fall? To what end?

 

 

I'm saying they should have acted sooner. At least send some sisters who weren't completely under the Amyrlin's control(I don't think that only the inner-circle found out about it, unless it was a huge one).

If they deliberated for several days about what to do, how to have the votes to take her down from the Amyrlin seat, they lost a lot of time.

Maybe they believed that that AS queen needed to be taught a lesson, but that Manetheren will still win the fight, even by themselves, but with heavy casualties, and the queen would have been brought down by a peg or three.

And she was the only one punished. What about the many others that followed those orders blindly? When they do something good, every single AS jumps to take credit. When they mess up badly, only the Amyrlin is responsible.

The slow response(or lack of) of the WT put the future of the world in danger on more than one occasion.

 

Slight risk of the thread getting off track but as it relates rulers I think it fits. The many times the WT have saved the world far outweighs this issue with Manetheren. Again instead of speculating lets look to the facts, Tetsuan had the issue with Eldrene. There is no other record of any trouble between Manetheren and the WT, so it was not an issue of them trying to take her down a peg. The Hall did not know, there was no deliberation, those are the facts.

 

As for a slow response I assume you are referring to Malkier? A DF coup caused it's fall, all the AS did was cover up the fact they couldn't reach in time despite every effort to do so. They did not know travelling an the Shadowspawn invasion was timed to fit with Cowin Gemallan's plans that stripped the border forts. This can not be laid at the feet of AS in anyway.

[Durinax]

Slight risk of the thread getting off track but as it relates rulers I think it fits. The many times the WT have saved the world far outweighs this issue with Manetheren. Again instead of speculating lets look to the facts, Tetsuan had the issue with Eldrene. There is no other record of any trouble between Manetheren and the WT, so it was not an issue of them trying to take her down a peg. The Hall did not know, there was no deliberation, those are the facts.

The Hall must have known something, do you think that they would allow a trolloc army to march halfway across the world, be held at a river for however many days, without any eyes and ears from some random sister/ajah finding out? The fact is they all failed Manetheren, its just they used tetsuan as a scape goat

[FarShainMael]

A couple of points:

 

The Salidar Sitters ... knew about her romantic interest in Rand,

 

Did they? Who aside from the three women and Birgitte know? Many still think that Elayne is pregnant by Daved Hanlon.

 

An AS as a queen. Bye bye any chance to an aliance with Amadicia or any other country in which the Children have control.

 

Don't forget that the Lord Captain Commander of the CotL is Elayne's half-brother Galad. Though ISTR she used not to like him very much!