Merrilor: A Big, Fat Red Herring

[Mats Spare Hat]

Crap, the whole scene could totally just dissolve into one big soap opera...

 

Rand: I promised Nynaeve I'd help Lan, to the Gap! *dramatic hair flip

Elayne: Ugh like, I can't go... *dramatic pause

 

*melodramatic background opinions on why she can't, why they're such a bad/good couple, and what EVERYbody thinks of this

 

*musical crescendo

 

Elayne: I can't go, because my land needs me!! *dramatic hair flip

Rand: OMG, but I promised, and besides you're pretty capable *disarming eyebrow furling

Elayne: If you loved me you would come with me ugh omg ugh ugh *sniffle sniffle *more hair flipping

Rand: I should, but I can't, alas, I am torn in twai- *Elayne Dramatic Interjection

ELAYNE: I'M HAVING YOUR BABIES!!!

RAND: OUUUWAAHHHH???!!!

 

 

Tune in next time, when... .. . *sounds of hard shell tacos being noisily crunched, soft drink being slurped loudly

[DemandredFO]

Egwene figured out Travelling from the TAR gateway so I don't think Moraine will. Moraine might be of help because the light's Demandred being in the middle nowhere offers an opportunity which someone should take advantage of.

[TreeJoe]

Moiraine may have witnessed lanfear channel a gateway from the finn world (don't even know if that' possible, but lets not ignore possibilities here). She has always been one of the wisest and more adaptable aes sedai. Or she could somehow come across an aes sedai who knows traveling. She's with Mat, who brings what he needs to him before he knows its needed.

[TreeJoe]

I find 95% of the posts here to be completely off base with regards to Rand.

 

He doesn't need any of the armies, or really any broad agreement. He may need some channelers. That's about it.

 

He has stated & inferred that it is time for him to remove himself from sovereign struggles and focus on his one battle - his fight with the Dark One. He's not going to be marshaling resources and directing activities at Merrilor towards nations and individual battles. He's going to declare his intentions, declare what he needs, and tell them they lead themselves.

 

The reason for Merrilor isn't for Rand - it's for the people. The only way to successfully battle a worldwide surge of Shadowspawn erupting through gateways is to NOT have standing armies in each place. But instead to disseminate precision strike forces from one central place as needed. He brought them altogether so that all the major resources of the land are in one spot.

 

He's created a headquarters for the world.

 

It doesn't matter what their priorities are - Tarmon Gai'don already started. Much like the Seanchan strike at the Tower showed each individual "leader" that they were woefully ill-equipped, Merrilor is going to teach each leader certain things.

 

And, I'm guessing that they are going to learn that Perrin needs to take his place as leader of them all (we've now seen several books of Perrin leading Asha'man, Aes Sedai, and multiple nations). Most likely Mat will be his lead general.

 

Perrin and Mat are going to leverage Merrilor to save the people of the world and provide Rand the space to fight for the world itself.

[lilltempest]

Why is everyone so certain that the people in Caemlyn and at the White Tower are going to, very first thing, run to fetch Elayne and Egwene? Much like the Borderlands, I would think that the people left behind would deal with it instead of running to get the "queens". Honestly, it would make the story better if they did it that way, and it would also show that there are some competent people in both the White Tower and in Caemlyn instead of a bunch of halfwits who can't find their asses with both hands and a flashlight (torch?) unless Egwene and Elayne are there to tell them.

 

Also, dramatically speaking, it would be more interesting if they find out when they're leaving FoM (maybe after both Egwene and Elayne refuse to support Rand and Rand has sent his people to the Borderlands and, attempting to send them to the BT only to find out they can't get in). Elayne can try to return to Caemlyn, which is now blocked by the dreamspike and Egwene can open a gateway to the WT only to find that the Seanchan have taken over it (or that they're still in the midst of a battle, possibly not just with the Seanchan, but with the Shadow, as well, leaving her to attempt a truce herself so they can drive off the Shadowspawn and Black Ajah). Having sisters show up just before the meeting to run get their mommy (because they can't handle anything themselves and have been properly chastised to the point where they don't feel they can kill a Trolloc without asking Egwene how) screams PLOT DEVICE (and seems like poorly written fan fiction), as does people rushing to get Elayne instead of just dealing with it. After all, they are two women, and while we've been shown how capable *coughPerfectAndSupposedlyUndefeatble* both of them are, it's about time some other people stepped up as well, which is what Rand was telling people after he handled the Shadowspawn invasion in ToM.

 

As for the BT, it would be more interesting if Androl, Logain, and Pevara had to deal with it instead of Rand showing up in the nick of time. Let Perrin deal with the dreamspike while the battle goes down. I think, out of the three of them (Rand, Elayne, and Egwene), Rand would freak out the least of the three and realize that, while he had a hand in creating the mess at the BT by appointing Taim the "leader", Logain and the others were going to have to step up to the plate and prove themselves. With Androl, wouldn't it be more interesting if he did not escape and, instead, found a way to use his Talent with gateways as a weapon against Taim and his men? Perhaps he manages to find Logain, or Logain shows up or something (I really think this needs to be Logain's show, not Rand's or the Aes Sedai's) and leads them against Taim and his men.

 

Anyway, my point is that, while the idea that everyone runs to get Egwene and Elayne (and Rand) for help may set things up the way some people clearly wish it to be, it doesn't really make the most sense. Neither Egwene nor Elayne are generals - they are administrative figureheads/dictators - and though both of them are prone to hop to the front lines at every opportunity, it isn't their place and I would hope that the Aes Sedai (now that they are "united") and the armies in Caemlyn are capable of responding to a crisis without crying like babies and running for their masters. We've already seen that the Borderlanders are capable of that - of fighting like hell and handling it without the kings and queens telling them how to - even when they know they'll lose. It'd be nice if we saw the same from some others, for a change and have the dictators see that the people they lead are actually capable of dealing with things without them sniffing and looking down their noses at everyone for not being as awesome as their one-woman army show.

[FarShainMael]

But you never quote this

Why should I quote everything all the time? It has nothing to do with my post, so why should I quote it? But we've been through this before. That's why Rand has to be balefired.

 

But it is relevant to your post, as it shows Moiraine changing her mind about the need to kill Rand to save him from the Shadow - that killing him would instead hand him straight to the DO. As I pointed out, balefire probably won't help. There is a narrow window in which the DO can grab a dead soul, and balefire normally makes it impossible to hit that window - but since the DO's attention is totally focussed on Rand now, I'll bet It will indeed be able to grab his soul, balefire or no.

[Suttree]

Why should I quote everything all the time?

 

Isn't that what a quotemistress does?

[David Selig]

Why is everyone so certain that the people in Caemlyn and at the White Tower are going to, very first thing, run to fetch Elayne and Egwene? Much like the Borderlands, I would think that the people left behind would deal with it instead of running to get the "queens". Honestly, it would make the story better if they did it that way, and it would also show that there are some competent people in both the White Tower and in Caemlyn instead of a bunch of halfwits who can't find their asses with both hands and a flashlight (torch?) unless Egwene and Elayne are there to tell them.

 

Also, dramatically speaking, it would be more interesting if they find out when they're leaving FoM (maybe after both Egwene and Elayne refuse to support Rand and Rand has sent his people to the Borderlands and, attempting to send them to the BT only to find out they can't get in). Elayne can try to return to Caemlyn, which is now blocked by the dreamspike and Egwene can open a gateway to the WT only to find that the Seanchan have taken over it (or that they're still in the midst of a battle, possibly not just with the Seanchan, but with the Shadow, as well, leaving her to attempt a truce herself so they can drive off the Shadowspawn and Black Ajah). Having sisters show up just before the meeting to run get their mommy (because they can't handle anything themselves and have been properly chastised to the point where they don't feel they can kill a Trolloc without asking Egwene how) screams PLOT DEVICE (and seems like poorly written fan fiction), as does people rushing to get Elayne instead of just dealing with it. After all, they are two women, and while we've been shown how capable *coughPerfectAndSupposedlyUndefeatble* both of them are, it's about time some other people stepped up as well, which is what Rand was telling people after he handled the Shadowspawn invasion in ToM.

 

It's the armies they need mostly, not the leaders. The majority of both Andor's and Tower's forces are at Merrilor. It makes sense to summon them for help, especially if the attacks are as massive as expected - Verin's letter claimed the only way to stop the invasion of Caemlyn was to destroy the Waygate IIRC, even though she knows Andor has a really big army by Randland standards.

[lilltempest]

I find 95% of the posts here to be completely off base with regards to Rand.

 

He doesn't need any of the armies, or really any broad agreement. He may need some channelers. That's about it.

 

Agreed. And I don't think he's there to "ask" anything. His POV indicated that he's going to do what he feels necessary and that everyone at the FoM will hear his demands. Demands, not requests. And he isn't there to say, "Will all of you do this so I can break the seals?". He's breaking the seals. End of story. But he's going to tell them how it's going to be and what they will have to do.

 

He has stated & inferred that it is time for him to remove himself from sovereign struggles and focus on his one battle - his fight with the Dark One. He's not going to be marshaling resources and directing activities at Merrilor towards nations and individual battles. He's going to declare his intentions, declare what he needs, and tell them they lead themselves.

 

The reason for Merrilor isn't for Rand - it's for the people. The only way to successfully battle a worldwide surge of Shadowspawn erupting through gateways is to NOT have standing armies in each place. But instead to disseminate precision strike forces from one central place as needed. He brought them altogether so that all the major resources of the land are in one spot.

 

He's created a headquarters for the world.

 

Not sure about a headquarters for the world. I see it more as a starting point for planning and coordination/cooperation. Every leader is going to want his/her own land to be safe, that's a given. But it's not possible. They're going to have to choose where to strike and realize that not every area can be defended.

 

It doesn't matter what their priorities are - Tarmon Gai'don already started. Much like the Seanchan strike at the Tower showed each individual "leader" that they were woefully ill-equipped, Merrilor is going to teach each leader certain things.

 

And, I'm guessing that they are going to learn that Perrin needs to take his place as leader of them all (we've now seen several books of Perrin leading Asha'man, Aes Sedai, and multiple nations). Most likely Mat will be his lead general.

 

Perrin and Mat are going to leverage Merrilor to save the people of the world and provide Rand the space to fight for the world itself.

 

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) and may not cooperate at first. In fact, I can see it becoming a pissing contest between various groups. (Elayne has her explosives she wants to hoard and keep for only Andor, and she won't like it if non-Andoran armies start using them since that may risk other armies developing them for themselves, and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Personally, I'd like to think Egwene's dream of Rand cutting ropes refers to this very thing. At the meeting, he makes his demands ("Work together, you morons, and I'm leaving Perrin and Mat to coordinate how things will go while I do what I have to") and ends up cutting the ropes the Aes Sedai have holding the world (the 23 three stars represents the Hall). The "peace" that they've kept (a delicate peace held in place with the strings they've used to puppeteer the thrones of the land) will be shattered by Rand's demands when some separate themselves from the Tower and agree to follow Perrin and Mat's lead. Rand has to break it to form something stronger (stronger bonds and alliances that are held in place by firm belief in what Rand tells them can minimize the damage the Shadow will cause rather than resentful fear of the WT's wrath, which is what has kept the peace in the past).

[Suttree]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

[lilltempest]

It's the armies they need mostly, not the leaders. The majority of both Andor's and Tower's forces are at Merrilor. It makes sense to summon them for help, especially if the attacks are as massive as expected - Verin's letter claimed the only way to stop the invasion of Caemlyn was to destroy the Waygate IIRC, even though she knows Andor has a really big army by Randland standards.

 

Egwene took most of the Tower's forces with her? The Aes Sedai? Or the Tower guard? I know Bryne is there, but I don't remember mention of Egwene bringing most of the Tower with her. As for Elayne, I remember she brought some of her army with her (not Cairhien's) but did not realize it was the majority.

[lilltempest]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

 

Gareth Bryne swore fealty to her, personally, so she has complete control over him and can force him to change his tactics/orders as she pleases. I don't see Mat or Perrin doing that.

[Suttree]

I like this and can see it as well. I think there will be some who don't like it at all (can you imagine Egwene's reaction to the idea that any Aes Sedai has to take orders from a man?) .... and Egwene will refuse to allow any man to give orders to "her" Aes Sedai) and at least the Aes Sedai and Andor walking away from it (taking with them any nations whose leaders think the WT should lead the world).

 

Are you speaking from a military perspective? She didn't seem to have much of a problem doing it with Gareth Byrne...

 

Gareth Bryne swore fealty to her, personally, so she has complete control over him and can force him to change his tactics/orders as she pleases. I don't see Mat or Perrin doing that.

 

Come now, you have to admit she gave him full reign when it came to the army and it's planning. That was the only way Byrne was on for the job. She never showed any indication that she would meddle with him when it came to military strategy.

[lilltempest]

Come now, you have to admit she gave him full reign when it came to the army and it's planning. That was the only way Byrne was on for the job. She never showed any indication that she would meddle with him when it came to military strategy.

 

Um, no she did not. He told her how to quickly end the "war" against the Tower in the beginning and she, in no uncertain terms, refused because she didn't want Aes Sedai to die in the battle. The siege was not Bryne's first choice, it was Egwene's. It was only after her games at the WT ended and Gawyn/Siuan/Gareth rescued her that she decided to finally take Bryne's advice and proceed with his original plans. So yes, she will meddle when it pleases her to do so and she will overrule him. Given that she values Aes Sedai and the White Tower more than anything else in the world, there's no doubt that, if Mat or Perrin made choices that were not in the WT's best interests, she would have problems with it.

 

This is exactly why Mat and Perrin are the best choices for making the military choices for the Final Battle. Each leader - Egwene included - is, understandably, only interested in his/her section of the world. If someone told Egwene - if you let Tear burn to the ground, the White Tower will be defended - then she would let Tear burn and declare it was "necessary" even if, in the bigger picture, it was more strategically important to save Tear (I'm just using a random example here). That's why it would not do to have someone sworn to her running things, and it's also why she'd have a problem allowing someone not sworn to her directing Aes Sedai.

[TreeJoe]

Yes, Egwene continues to work towards the tower's benefit. But the tower no longer follows the "servants of all" - it seperates itself from mankind (as Nynaeve points out).

 

Rand will most likely bend them.

 

Also, I really want to see Egwene get schooled by Rand on what true channeling looks like, and schooled again by Perrin on what a dreamwalker can do. I don't even dislike her character - I just think her raw arrogance towards her "friends" is overwhelming, and needs to be brought low before the series ends.

 

As Bair once said of Kiruna, "Once she learns that she owns her pride and that her pride does not own her, she will be very strong."

[Suttree]

Come now, you have to admit she gave him full reign when it came to the army and it's planning. That was the only way Byrne was on for the job. She never showed any indication that she would meddle with him when it came to military strategy.

 

Um, no she did not. He told her how to quickly end the "war" against the Tower in the beginning and she, in no uncertain terms, refused because she didn't want Aes Sedai to die in the battle. The siege was not Bryne's first choice, it was Egwene's. It was only after her games at the WT ended and Gawyn/Siuan/Gareth rescued her that she decided to finally take Bryne's advice and proceed with his original plans. So yes, she will meddle when it pleases her to do so and she will overrule him. Given that she values Aes Sedai and the White Tower more than anything else in the world, there's no doubt that, if Mat or Perrin made choices that were not in the WT's best interests, she would have problems with it.

 

This is exactly why Mat and Perrin are the best choices for making the military choices for the Final Battle. Each leader - Egwene included - is, understandably, only interested in his/her section of the world. If someone told Egwene - if you let Tear burn to the ground, the White Tower will be defended - then she would let Tear burn and declare it was "necessary" even if, in the bigger picture, it was more strategically important to save Tear (I'm just using a random example here). That's why it would not do to have someone sworn to her running things, and it's also why she'd have a problem allowing someone not sworn to her directing Aes Sedai.

 

 

My bad...if it happened around CoT my memory prob isn't the best. So Byrne had a whole plan laid out and decided on and Egwene refused, changed it and came up with her own plan for a siege?

 

I thought it was still Byrne's plan after it was decided sister on sister fighting would do more harm than good. Byrne only had total control over the army after all and this would only be an issue in this one specific case. It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in.

[randsc]

Come now, you have to admit she gave him full reign when it came to the army and it's planning. That was the only way Byrne was on for the job. She never showed any indication that she would meddle with him when it came to military strategy.

 

Um, no she did not. He told her how to quickly end the "war" against the Tower in the beginning and she, in no uncertain terms, refused because she didn't want Aes Sedai to die in the battle. The siege was not Bryne's first choice, it was Egwene's. It was only after her games at the WT ended and Gawyn/Siuan/Gareth rescued her that she decided to finally take Bryne's advice and proceed with his original plans. So yes, she will meddle when it pleases her to do so and she will overrule him. Given that she values Aes Sedai and the White Tower more than anything else in the world, there's no doubt that, if Mat or Perrin made choices that were not in the WT's best interests, she would have problems with it.

 

This is exactly why Mat and Perrin are the best choices for making the military choices for the Final Battle. Each leader - Egwene included - is, understandably, only interested in his/her section of the world. If someone told Egwene - if you let Tear burn to the ground, the White Tower will be defended - then she would let Tear burn and declare it was "necessary" even if, in the bigger picture, it was more strategically important to save Tear (I'm just using a random example here). That's why it would not do to have someone sworn to her running things, and it's also why she'd have a problem allowing someone not sworn to her directing Aes Sedai.

 

 

My bad...if it happened around CoT my memory prob isn't the best. So Byrne had a whole plan laid out and decided on and Egwene refused, changed it and came up with her own plan for a siege?

 

I thought it was still Byrne's plan after it was decided sister on sister fighting would do more harm than good. Byrne only had total control over the army after all and this would only be an issue in this one specific case. It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in.

 

liltempest has it right.

 

And this: "It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in" is untrue. There are a number of reasons why Egwene might "step in," one of which liltempest outlined at some length.

[Suttree]

Come now, you have to admit she gave him full reign when it came to the army and it's planning. That was the only way Byrne was on for the job. She never showed any indication that she would meddle with him when it came to military strategy.

 

Um, no she did not. He told her how to quickly end the "war" against the Tower in the beginning and she, in no uncertain terms, refused because she didn't want Aes Sedai to die in the battle. The siege was not Bryne's first choice, it was Egwene's. It was only after her games at the WT ended and Gawyn/Siuan/Gareth rescued her that she decided to finally take Bryne's advice and proceed with his original plans. So yes, she will meddle when it pleases her to do so and she will overrule him. Given that she values Aes Sedai and the White Tower more than anything else in the world, there's no doubt that, if Mat or Perrin made choices that were not in the WT's best interests, she would have problems with it.

 

This is exactly why Mat and Perrin are the best choices for making the military choices for the Final Battle. Each leader - Egwene included - is, understandably, only interested in his/her section of the world. If someone told Egwene - if you let Tear burn to the ground, the White Tower will be defended - then she would let Tear burn and declare it was "necessary" even if, in the bigger picture, it was more strategically important to save Tear (I'm just using a random example here). That's why it would not do to have someone sworn to her running things, and it's also why she'd have a problem allowing someone not sworn to her directing Aes Sedai.

 

 

My bad...if it happened around CoT my memory prob isn't the best. So Byrne had a whole plan laid out and decided on and Egwene refused, changed it and came up with her own plan for a siege?

 

I thought it was still Byrne's plan after it was decided sister on sister fighting would do more harm than good. Byrne only had total control over the army after all and this would only be an issue in this one specific case. It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in.

 

liltempest has it right.

 

And this: "It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in" is untrue. There are a number of reasons why Egwene might "step in," one of which liltempest outlined at some length.

 

But there is historical precedent for AS being integrated to military units and under the control of Generals. Greens surely have studied the Trolloc Wars and know that was the "pinnacle" of military strategy.

 

BWB

At this time the military formed "banners," which consisted of roughly fifteen hundred horse, primarily archers, or three thousand infantry. These "banners" combined into armies under the command of a general, often a noble, and were usually accompanied by a small complement of Aes Sedai.

 

Why would TG be any different?

 

As for the scenario outlined above, it is oversimplifying to say the least in presenting an either/or situation like that. I would be surprised if Egwene steps in and refuses AS to be under the advice of whomever leads the armies in TG.

 

It's the armies they need mostly, not the leaders. The majority of both Andor's and Tower's forces are at Merrilor. It makes sense to summon them for help, especially if the attacks are as massive as expected - Verin's letter claimed the only way to stop the invasion of Caemlyn was to destroy the Waygate IIRC, even though she knows Andor has a really big army by Randland standards.

 

Egwene took most of the Tower's forces with her? The Aes Sedai? Or the Tower guard? I know Bryne is there, but I don't remember mention of Egwene bringing most of the Tower with her. As for Elayne, I remember she brought some of her army with her (not Cairhien's) but did not realize it was the majority.

 

The army with her is Byrne's 50,000+. The WT guard I believe is till back in TV.

 

ToM "Something Wrong"

Outside, the late afternoon sun was hidden by gray clouds. Byrne's soldiers worked busily on a palisade. His army had swelled during the last few weeks, and they dominated the eastern side of the wide, forest-rimmed grassland that had once been known as Merrilor.

 

& for Elayne

The Cairhienin were Elayne's now, by reports, and were coming through with the Andorans and a large number of men from the Band of the Red Hand.

 

So yeah safe to say the armies present are considerable.

[sleepinghour]

And this: "It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in" is untrue. There are a number of reasons why Egwene might "step in," one of which liltempest outlined at some length.

Add to that Egwene's passionate hatred of the Seanchan, who are going to be one of the biggest players in the Last Battle. Perrin has already worked with the Seanchan before, Mat is married to their Empress, while Egwene has declared she would "as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan." Which is fine if she wants to make that choice for herself, but what if refusing to work with the Seanchan also means depriving others of the chance to be saved?

[Suttree]

And this: "It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in" is untrue. There are a number of reasons why Egwene might "step in," one of which liltempest outlined at some length.

Add to that Egwene's passionate hatred of the Seanchan, who are going to be one of the biggest players in the Last Battle. Perrin has already worked with the Seanchan before, Mat is married to their Empress, while Egwene has declared she would "as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan." Which is fine if she wants to make that choice for herself, but what if refusing to work with the Seanchan also means depriving others of the chance to be saved?

 

Think that quote is foreshadowing. Recall the dream where she gets help or the WT and Seanchan will be working together.

Crossroads of TwilightEdit Crossroads of Twilight

 

Chapter 20

“She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.”

[lilltempest]

And this: "It would be far different verse shadowspawn and Eggy would have no reason to step in" is untrue. There are a number of reasons why Egwene might "step in," one of which liltempest outlined at some length.

Add to that Egwene's passionate hatred of the Seanchan, who are going to be one of the biggest players in the Last Battle. Perrin has already worked with the Seanchan before, Mat is married to their Empress, while Egwene has declared she would "as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan." Which is fine if she wants to make that choice for herself, but what if refusing to work with the Seanchan also means depriving others of the chance to be saved?

 

I agree that she won't want Mat or Perrin giving Aes Sedai orders, but the Seanchan are a whole other ballgame.

 

Don't forget her dream. A Seanchan woman (or army) will help her. She knows this from her dream. Still, there are only two things that could prompt her working with the Seanchan: saving the White Tower from certain destruction and getting Rand under her control. If the Shadow attacks the Tower while the Seanchan are attacking the Tower, Egwene would do her best to try to get them to work with her instead of against her. Or, it could be that the Seanchan realize the same thing and offer her a helping hand (reflecting her dream of a Seanchan helping her as she falling off the rocks). Once the crisis is over, it would likely be "back to the drawing board" unless she saw an opportunity to get whoever is leading them at the time to listen to her, which is quite possible if they just fought together to drive out Shadowspawn. If she thought she could negotiate a treaty so that no more Aes Sedai would be collared, using Rand as a poker chip, she'd do it in a heartbeat. I can see her telling Tuon that they just managed to drive off a threat from the Shadow that neither of them could have managed alone, and that there is another threat that neither of them can handle alone: Rand. Ally with the WT and we can stop him, get him under control, blah blah blah, all the while thinking that she, as Amyrlin, would be the one calling all the shots. Tuon would be thinking the same, of course.

 

Egwene is not stupid - she may walk away from Rand and everyone at FoM who doesn't agree to let the WT take the lead in the Last Battle so her Aes Sedai don't have to be ordered about by men who aren't bound by oath to take orders from her personally, but if the Tower is about to fall and the Seanchan are there offering help despite them being in the middle of an attack, she's going to jump at it so her precious Tower isn't harmed any more than necessary. And, once she has the Seanchan helping hand, she'll take the whole arm (remember what Rand said about negotiating with her - he made it sound worse than making a deal with the Sea Folk) and use it to beat Rand and the rest of the world into submission.

 

Given how Egwene is written (can out-manipulate the smoothest manipulator, makes everyone drool with awe over how incredible she is, and turns everyone else into a halfwit with her mere presence), I won't be the least bit surprised if Tuon agrees to let her armies follow Egwene or allows Egwene to take over everything personally if she can help get Rand under control (I still think Egwene will collar him "to protect the world from him", though I don't see her needlessly torturing him). There would be those in the Seanchan army who rebelled at an alliance with the AS, I would think, but that'd quickly be put down. And, if Mat was in charge of everyone else's armies, under Perrin's leadership (after an agreement at FoM), Tuon could use her influence on Mat to force him into line...so Egwene ends up with just what she wants anyway, and getting there the long way ensures that the Seanchan fall into line as well.

[David Selig]

Egwene wrote this to Darlin:

The Dragon Reborn must see our full forces marshaled to oppose his brash intentions. If he sees this as halfhearted, we will never dissuade him from his course. Please come with all of your troops.

This implies that she most likely brought most of the Tower Troops and Aes Sedai with her too and convinced Elayne to do the same.

[sleepinghour]

Think that quote is foreshadowing. Recall the dream where she gets help or the WT and Seanchan will be working together.

I agree. And I do think Egwene will in the end decide to work together with the Seanchan, but it will take both her and Tuon some time to reconcile with that idea, maybe even most of the book given how strong their convictions are (and then in the epilogue they will be drinking tea and trading stories about Mat ). Rand probably knows how strongly she feels about the Seanchan, so I think he'll try to minimize the risk of that becoming a problem by handing over the reins to Mat or Perrin instead.

[Sharaman]

I doubt that simply linking by saidin+saidar will be enough to Gate past the Spike's restrictions.

Too many AoL channelers of both sexes who knew linking to make the Spike very effective if it's that easy.

We don't know enough about the Spike though to be certain what it can do - Graendal thinks of it as useful in many ways. It could have other properties as well.

[Terez]

But you never quote this

Why should I quote everything all the time? It has nothing to do with my post, so why should I quote it? But we've been through this before. That's why Rand has to be balefired.

 

But it is relevant to your post, as it shows Moiraine changing her mind about the need to kill Rand to save him from the Shadow

No, it doesn't. It's foreshadowing for godsake, not a real determination on Moiraine's part to kill Rand. Just a willingness to do so if it's necessary.

 

As I pointed out, balefire probably won't help. There is a narrow window in which the DO can grab a dead soul, and balefire normally makes it impossible to hit that window - but since the DO's attention is totally focussed on Rand now, I'll bet It will indeed be able to grab his soul, balefire or no.

RJ said it's impossible unless the amount of balefire is really small. Which it won't be.