Machin Shin

[Luckers]

I havn't decided where i stand on this yet, but given that a hundred thousand Trollocs got through the ways intact in one group, and added to the fact that we know large groups attract Machin Shin faster, a mere thousand drawing it almost instantly, there is some possibility that it isn't around anymore.

 

This could be because of the destruction of the taint, though in truth i dont see how. We have never seen any evidence of a relationship between Machin Shin's continued existence and that of the taint. Additionally given that certain other effects of the taint linger on following its destruction, this seems even more unlikely.

 

Another possible explanation is that Machin Shin somehow escaped the Ways. We know that following its encounter with Fain it was changed. We see it waiting at entrances to the Ways, we see it push against the barrier, and force it to bulge. In each case this was halted... first by Rand, then by the closing of the gate, so we actually dont know if in its new state it couldn't have succeeded in escaping.

 

The question then become why we havn't seen it, if it escaped. In truth i don't have any idea why not... though if it has escaped... well the only true activity in the ways these days have been in the blight, and since it seems to need an open gate to even try escaping, well it seems likely that it would have escaped into the blight. Possibly it could have been leashed into service by the Dark One.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, we don't KNOW that the Trollocs came through in one group, Moridin just says the orders sent a hundred thousand Trollocs into the Ways, they could have come through in smaller groups and rejoined on the other side. Lord Algarin's manor is relatively remote.

 

Still, that kind of movement would not have been possible a year ago. I'm of the opinion that Machin Shin is slowly dying, losing strength because the taint on saidin has been cleansed. I believe it is this which allowed the larger groups (or possibly, group) of Trollocs to pass through relatively close to each other.

 

According the Aes Sedai's understanding, Machin Shin can't leave the Ways ... now admittedly, the Aes Sedai haven't proven to be infallible sources of information ... far from it. And waiting at the Waygates is a relatively new behavior. I guess since we haven't seen it since the cleansing, its difficult to say.

 

As for being leashed by the Dark One ... thats actually a real possibility, if it managed to get out. Unlike Mashadar, Machin Shin had its ultimate source in the Dark One's taint, so they are, at the most basic level, probably like evils, rather than opposite evils. I think the main question would be "How did it get out at all?".

 

An alternative possibility is that by interacting with Fain, the Black Wind altered in such a way as to be able to communicate on some level, and whoever ordered the attack was able to strike a bargain with it. That would be a worst-case scenario for the Light, opening the Ways to at least one Forsaken, keeping them perilous for the Light.

 

Since we haven't seen it since the cleansing, though, it is all very speculative. Right now, my opinion is, Machin Shin is dying.

[Trib4l]

I don't know about dying, but I would theorize that it's certainly not going to grow any larger.

 

The ogier refer to the Ways as a living organism several times throughout the series, so the reason Machin Shin kept growing is that the Ways are sustained constantly by saidin. Now that the taint is gone, the Ways remain, but by my guess so does the remains of the taint.

 

It's possible that Machin Shin was destroyed by the evil vs. evil battle at the cleansing, but I wouldn't count on that.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, its certainly not proven, but the passage of a hundred thousand Trollocs in a short period of time smacks of either weakness or accomodation.

[Xeonicus]

I just always figured since its run in with Fain, some part of Fain's hatred for al'Thor impressed itself upon Machin Sin. Perrin went through the ways after it had been behaving oddly and it wasn't waiting at the gate for him....

[Trib4l]

Since Fain is one of 3 DF people we know have the capability of locating Rand or a ta'veren, I'd say it's possible that Taim was responsible for the attack. That would at least explain the complicity of the BW in letting so many pass - if in fact it wasn't destroyed or weakened.

 

Heck, we still don't even know what affect the cleansing had on Fain. This may have been his revenge on Rand for destroying SL.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, Fain may have reached some accomodation with Machin Shin that caused it to be waiting for Rand at Barthanes' Manor and Stedding Tsofu. Those are the only times I think we have seen the Black Wind actually waiting, so that may not be anything more than a specific arrangement to prevent Rand from using the Ways to go to Falme.

 

 

Perrin took through, what, seven people, himself included? Seven people would not draw the Black Wind very quickly. But in order for a hundred thousand Trollocs (or a hundred groups of a thousand Trollocs) to make it through the Ways without catastrophic losses, something like Fain's accomodation must have been reached, or, Machin Shin must be weaker somehow.

[KaptainKaos]

We currently don't have enough information to come up with a certain conclusion but I have one that follows a simple circle of thought although I'm not sure if the way I describe it below sounds too hopeful of a conclusion but I would like to walk into a Waygate walk for a day or so in a sunny paradise like world with grass so soft it sleeps like a bed then come out another Waygate at one of the 'coffee shops' in Amsterdam then go back into the Waygate and just 'enjoy' the walk home

 

-Ways are created and according to Loial were sunny and all around pleasant to travel in.

-A while later due to the taint on the Power that created the ways they start getting darker and the grass that used to be there to lay in while traveling goes away.

-The Ways are completely dark Machin Shin hunts, the bridges and walkways start eroding.

-Then a little while after the taint on the power that created the ways is destroyed by Rand the Ways start to get lighter, maybe some grass growing, Machin Shin either losing power or starting to disappear completely.

-After a while to recover the Ways may regrow their bridges if it is even possible but at least have the sunlight and green grass that was there originally. It just makes no sense for the Ways to remain dark and evil if the element (the taint) that made the Ways evil is no longer around.

[Trib4l]

This is all conjecture, but the diminishing of the taint in the Ways assumes these things:

 

1. The damage that has already been done by the taint will diminish now that the taint is removed.

2. Somehow the taint being pulled from saidin into SL also pulled it from the Ways.

3. That the Ways are not separated from their source, like Rand's wounds, or Fain's existence as Mordeth; that somehow they are actively connected to the thing that has caused their decay.

 

Since the Ways seem to continuously rely on saidin for their existence, it's entirely possible that they were cleansed as well.

 

Hopefully we'll find out at some point.

[aznprince001]

sounds pretty good

[Guest Majsju]

The cleansing did not cause Machin Shin to disappear, Machin Shin was caused by the taint, but exists independently from it. When I've got more time I will go digging for RJ's exact words on this.

 

Edit: Ah, and there it was.

 

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of Saidin.

RJ: No. It’s like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it’s feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

[aznprince001]

Well bacteria needs to eat since it is an organism. Viruses however, are not even counted as living since it does not eat or adapt to its surrondings. Its like a robot in a sense because it can't "evolve" to adjust to its surroundings.

 

 

 

If i understand RJ correctly he is saying that

 

 

Machin Shin was created by Saidin's taint as a by-product. So now that the taint is gone, what holds Machin Shin together? Is it more like a virus that does not need to feed or adapt?

 

But since this is a fantasy story it cant be explained in scientific terms.

:?

[Luckers]

Well, we don't KNOW that the Trollocs came through in one group, Moridin just says the orders sent a hundred thousand Trollocs into the Ways, they could have come through in smaller groups and rejoined on the other side. Lord Algarin's manor is relatively remote.

 

It took Isam weeks to gather the force he used against the Two River. Given the need to avoid Ishy's notice, and the timeframe of him telling the Forsaken and the attack we know that the Trolloc exodus must have taken little more then a day, maybe two. That nessesitates that there must have been thousands in the ways at any one time... indeed, it suggests that the entire force must have been in the ways at the same time.

 

According the Aes Sedai's understanding, Machin Shin can't leave the Ways ... now admittedly, the Aes Sedai haven't proven to be infallible sources of information ... far from it. And waiting at the Waygates is a relatively new behavior. I guess since we haven't seen it since the cleansing, its difficult to say.

 

The Aes Sedai knowledge is based on an understanding of Machin Shin as it was. As you'll recall they also stated that Machin Shin did not wait at waygates either, with a comprable level of shock. That, as well as pushing the boundaries between the Ways and the real world are both new behaviour, only encountered since Machin Shin encountered Fain.

 

My belief is that it has been steadily changing since then. Growing and altering with the infection of the Dark One's influence on Fain, and Mordeth.

 

I think the main question would be "How did it get out at all?".

 

Well we have seen it pushing the boundaries, and each time it was stopped by a third party. In point of fact since its nature has begun to change, we have not seen it try to escape and fail on its own accord. Given that it could push the boundary as far as it did we can conclude that it CAN exert a force in the effort to escape now (note that before its encounter it just turned the gate black, it did not force it to bulge in any way).

 

The cleansing did not cause Machin Shin to disappear, Machin Shin was caused by the taint, but exists independently from it. When I've got more time I will go digging for RJ's exact words on this.

 

Edit: Ah, and there it was.

 

Quote:

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of Saidin.

RJ: No. It’s like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it’s feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Thanks Maj, i thought i remembered reading that, but i wasn't sure so i didn't want to say it.

[algspkr]

Maj, you killed my theory before I could even post it.

 

As for escape, it could have left through the gate at Fal Dara, it lacks a door.

 

It may have been "baited" by Perrin or Mat, but I see this as unlikely. When Perrin left Tear he went through the exit closest to Rand, and did not draw Machin Shin until he was at the Mantherin gate.

 

And Luckers I think your timeline may be a tad bit off, I thought a week or two had passed between us learning of the Trolloc expidition and the attack, further it is appearant that Moridin did not have a complete picture when that occured, he said that there were tens of thousands, well under the actual size of the attack anyway.

[Diefett]

It was changed in it's experience with Fain almost certainly, as we see with it's aggressiveness towards Rand.

 

It may have picked up Fains ability to detect Rand's presence, and thus for the most part preoccupied in going to the waygates closest to Rand, allowing people and beasts safer but not garenteed passage through the ways.

 

Anyways that's an idea that popped into the ol' noggin when I came across the question myself.

[Luckers]

As for escape, it could have left through the gate at Fal Dara, it lacks a door.

 

Ah but that was also the place it found Fain, and subsequently fled from. Concider Moiraine's words: "Some greeted him as like to them, some feared him. No sooner had the Wind enveloped him than it fled."

 

Combined with the changes witnessed in the Wind following that, and that to some degree it seems to be obeying Fain. This indicates that it experienced, at the least, a profound change at that moment near the Fal Dara gate, and its entirely possible that it now fears that incident, or the power Fain has, enough to obey Fain. This to me might suggest that it is avoiding that place... or could be. Conjecture, i know.

 

As for my timeline, we have little knowledge as to the exact time difference between when we witness the attack and when Moridin reports it, but Moridin's wording indicates that it is a relatively recent event. It is an emergency session to deal with something that has just happened, not a session to discuss something that took place a week ago...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks Maj, I hadn't seen that quote ...

 

Now I'm gonna have to think about that some more ...

[WarkWark]

In much the same way that the taint of Shadar Logoth is not gone from the world until Fain and the Dagger are also gone, I think that the taint on Saidin is close to the same thing, and that it won't be truly gone until certain other things that still hold some of the taint, and objects that were created with the taint were destroyed. That leads me to believe that Machin Shin probaly isn't gone quite yet anyways. What I don't exactly understand though, is if Machin Shin was created due to the taint on Saidin, wouldn't it be more likely to be controlled by the DO over Fain? Yet so far Fain has been the only person capable of fending off the voices, that we have seen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here's my reasoning on that.

 

Machin Shin resulted from the taint. The taint was a side effect of the DO's last desperate attempt to prevent the Sealing. So, Macnin Shin, itself, is a side effect of a side effect, existing at two removes from the DO. Additionally, it has had thousands of years of existing on its own.

 

Thus it is an entirely separate thing, not really subject to anyone/anything's control. It's almost alive. It grows and adapts and changes over time.

 

What its interaction with Fain contained, we don't really know. What seems apparent is that it behaves differently now than it did before.

[WarkWark]

I know this is a long shot, but could Machin Shin be a reflection of Mashadar on the worlds grown from the Waygates?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I really doubt it. The Ways are described in living terms. They were grown, not simply built. Tainted saidin was one of the agents used in growing them. The taint then seems to have outgassed ( for lack of a better term ) from the resulting growth and taken on a kind of life of its own.

 

Mashadar seems to be the distillation of all the hate for the DO that grew out of one man's obsession. IOW, something entirely different.

[Trib4l]

From Loial's description the Ways predate the 10 nations, so it's unlikely that it would be related to Mashadar in any way. Also, Mashadar has been described as a slow and unthinking blob where we've seen Machin Shin display intelligence. It moves and works like a hungry, hunting animal.

 

Since RJ has stated that Machin Shin is a result of the taint, and that Mashadar is evidently a result of the suspicious evil generated in Aridhol by Mordeth, we can say I think without a doubt that they aren't related.

[WarkWark]

You guys are right, I was only thinking along those lines because of Fain having the I guess.. power of Aridhol and also being able to control MS that it might be something like that.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

THis is my theory on it. MC is a creation of the taint. With the taint gone now it must venture out from the ways as without the taint it can no longer be sustained there. I think we may see something along these lines play out in MoL. I do not think they can heal however. Removing the taint stopped maddness but did not retract it, therefore the ways will forever remain desolate unless they are cleansed. I doubt that is important enough to cover in MoL considering all of the storylines that RJ has to tie up or at least leave marginally open. It may stay a mystery forever...sad I would have like to have known in any case