Lanfear/Cyndane Strength

[SBoydW]

but because she wanted to draw Lanfear up onto the wagon so that she could push her into the door.

 

That and she knew the effect it would have on the Ter'angreal. The whole melting thing.

[Meliane]

You think that's why it melted? Because of the bracelet?

 

Hmmmm...

[Cybertrolloc]

Is it clear that Moiraine winds up with the angreal instead of just knocking it away from Lanfear?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Suppressing a small bubble of hop - she could not allow herself that luxury - Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.

 

Thats the actual incident, for reference purposes (The Fires of Heaven, chapter 52 Choices). The phrase "clawing the bracelet away" seems to indicate success (otherwise it might have been rendered "trying to claw the bracelet away") However, since the entire wagon and everything in it is reduced to "a shapeless charred pile" (from the next chapter) there wasn't really any evidence left.

 

I think the placement of the angreal was, as Meliane said, bait. Moiraine was lining up her shot, drawing Lanfear to the spot where she could be conveniently tackled through the doorway.

[Thor]

I don't think so. In her pov just before she dived at Lanfear, she was thinking of how she disliked the angreal and there was no mentioning or any suggestion of using it as bait.

 

Also, I think Lanfear knew that Rand had the fat man angreal so there is no way that Lanfear could have just gone against Rand without having found the angreal first.

[Cybertrolloc]

Thanks, Robert. I hadn't been sure of the wording (I was thinking something like "knocked away.")

 

Thor, angreal as bait is in the passage Robert quoted, at most a few paragraphs back.

[Thor]

Fine, if RJ said it, then so be it. But I just want to say that it was not clear nor is it implied (not to me anyways) from Moiraine's pov.

[Cybertrolloc]

Fine' date=' if RJ said it, then so be it. But I just want to say that it was not clear nor is it implied (not to me anyways) from Moiraine's pov.[/quote']

US printing, first edition. Two paragraphs before Lanf and Mo go through the door: Mo didn't like the angreal...blah blah...but she still pulled it out of storage and left it in front of the door. I'm sorry your special edition copy doesn't have this line, perhaps it's the same one as Jonn's? ;)

[Thor]

My edition does have that line, but that still doesn't imply anything about a trap.

 

edit:

look at the chain of events.

 

Lanfear walks in to talk to dumb businessman, dumb businessman gives her some celebrity gossips. Lanfear gets urinated, proceeds with first step of making saussage with dumb businessman's skin. Lanfear walks out, gets her freak on at Rand.

 

There was no time between her exiting and starting to attack Rand to pick up the angreal. This means she found it before going in to talk with the DF.

 

Now how could Moiraine have known that Lanfear will pick up the angreal and then return to the same place?

 

Ofcourse, you will say that she saw it in the doorways.

 

But I still doubt it.

[SBoydW]

Now how could Moiraine have known that Lanfear will pick up the angreal and then return to the same place?

 

I Quote from FoH Chapter 52 (pg 892 paperback)

 

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean.

 

It was part of the future that that she got to see. That's how she knew.

 

but that still doesn't imply anything about a trap.

 

To answer that let's read on.

 

FoH pages 892-893 paperback.

 

Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless rand had his own angreal she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-darked ivory....She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet out of a stack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe

 

She knew that Lanfear would somehow end up on the wagonbed that held the redstone doorway ter'angreal, and that Lanfear would have the angreal that she ahd palced infront of it. She knew all this from the dreams that she had received from Rhuidean. It doesn't matter if Lanfear picked up the bracelet before or after he DF visit. Moiraine knew Lanfear would have it. Hence a trap.

[Thor]

That doesn't qualify to be a trap to me, Lanfear could have picked it up from anywhere even if Moiraine didn't put it there intentionally.

 

What Moiraine did was not trapping, she just did what she thought would give the best outcome. It was not, set bait, snap trap. It was more like, ooh I hope this work out well.

 

edit:

if Rand wasn't tavaren, he would be dead by Lanfear's hands regardless of Moiraine's actions.

[cloglord]

Thor if you read that section carefully it seems clear that Lanfear found the angreal in the middle of the battle. THe first half of the battle, Lanfear is trying to kill rand outright, Rand is trying to force her backwards. It is at the point that she backs up against the wagon, that Lanfear starts smiling, starts telling Rand it will be a slow death, and starts attempting to shield the strongest male channeler ever while he is holding the source.

 

Moraine put the angreal on the wagon. Lanfear found it during the fight.

[Thor]

It doesn't seem clear to me, there was no sudden increase in strength of Lanfear. And I must say, if Lanfear went into battle with Rand without having her angreal first, then she really must have gone out of her mind or was really really angry or she is stupid or she is arrogant/over-confident. Just shows how emotions can get the better of you sometimes.

[SBoydW]

Why else would Moiraine put the angreal right where she knew Lanfear would go?

[Asgard Thorin]

 

Well' date=' truthfully, thats not the problem. The ter'angreal doorways and the treaty governing them were made after the Age of Legends, so if Lanfear went to 'Finn-land during the AoL, she wouldn't have used the ter'angreal doorway.

 

The problem is ... thats just a totally unsupported idea.[/quote']

 

They could not have been made after the Age of Legends. No Ter'angreal west of the Spine and east of the Aryth Ocean where made after the Age of Legends until Ilyena(Elayne)returned. They probably predate the Age of Legends. The Finngreals must have been present(at least the ones for the Foxfinns) on the Daishain journey to Rhuidean, which happened after the Breaking began, before the Tower was founded.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They could not have been made after the Age of Legends. No Ter'angreal west of the Spine and east of the Aryth Ocean where made after the Age of Legends until Ilyena(Elayne)returned. They probably predate the Age of Legends. The Finngreals must have been present(at least the ones for the Foxfinns) on the Daishain journey to Rhuidean, which happened after the Breaking began, before the Tower was founded.

 

You are correct. I misinterpreted something else I read, and so reached an incorrect conclusion. For the Eelfinn doorway to be in Rhuidean as it was, it had to exist before the Breaking.

 

I still don't think Lanfear got her looks and strength in the Power from the Eelfinn though.

 

 

 

That doesn't qualify to be a trap to me, Lanfear could have picked it up from anywhere even if Moiraine didn't put it there intentionally.

 

Thats exactly what made it a trap. Moiraine didn't put it just "anywhere". She put it in a specific place, that she foresaw in the rings of Rhuidean, so that Lanfear would be in a specific place, not just "anywhere".

 

What Moiraine did was not trapping, she just did what she thought would give the best outcome.

 

LOL. What do you call it when you put out bait, hoping for a specific outcome? A TRAP.

 

if Rand wasn't tavaren, he would be dead by Lanfear's hands regardless of Moiraine's actions.

 

What does that have to do with Moiraine's intentions?

 

There was no time between her exiting and starting to attack Rand to pick up the angreal. This means she found it before going in to talk with the DF.

 

No it doesn't. It means that she was pretty sure she could handle Rand without an angreal, just like she had every single time they met before.

 

Now how could Moiraine have known that Lanfear will pick up the angreal and then return to the same place?

 

Ofcourse, you will say that she saw it in the doorways.

 

But I still doubt it.

 

Then you doubt what it says IN THE BOOK.

 

It doesn't seem clear to me, there was no sudden increase in strength of Lanfear.

 

I'm sorry, did you have a power-meter listing for Lanfear during the fight? If it didn't increase her Power, why did she bother to pick it up?

 

And I must say, if Lanfear went into battle with Rand without having her angreal first, then she really must have gone out of her mind or was really really angry or she is stupid or she is arrogant/over-confident.

 

Lets see ... has Lanfear ever been arrogant or overconfident before ... hmmmmmmmmm

 

YES. THOSE ARE PRACTICALLY HER DEFINING CHARACTERISTICS!

 

Besides, she wasn't really OVER-confident about Rand. She knew Rand wouldn't kill her, and he didn't. She was only over-confident when it came to thinking Moiraine had been dealt with. She fell victim to MOIRAINE'S TRAP.

[SBoydW]

Wondering when you would show up rob... :)

[Thor]

Robert, this time, you have no proof of anything, sorry.

 

Reading that again, there was still no sudden increase in her power, not by anyone's descriptions or reactions.

 

And how could she have known that Rand wouldn't kill her? She doesn't know about Rand's inhibitions. LTT would never have hesitated and in her mind, Rand is LTT. Also, people always measure others using themselves as a guide, she would have killed herself in the same scenario, there is no reason for her to think that Rand wouldn't do likewise.

 

No, what Moiraine did was not trapping, it was more like circumstances of the pattern clicking together with te help of a tavaren.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert, this time, you have no proof of anything, sorry.

 

Odd that everyone else thinks I do. Oh wait, thats not odd at all.

 

Reading that again, there was still no sudden increase in her power, not by anyone's descriptions or reactions.

 

Like I said, the book doesn't ever have a "power-meter" for you to guage. But tell me this: why else would she pick up the angreal? Give me one good reason why she would climb a wagon in the middle of a fight to pick up an angreal, other than boosting her power.

 

And how could she have known that Rand wouldn't kill her? She doesn't know about Rand's inhibitions. LTT would never have hesitated and in her mind, Rand is LTT.

 

Really? Thats funny, because in the prologue to the book where all this happens, Lanfear says:

 

He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself.

(from the Prologue to The Fires of Heaven)

 

You might want to re-think the whole "in her mind, Rand is LTT" thing.

 

And she knows all about his "inhibitions". She watched him more closely than all the other Forsaken. In the very same prologue, she has a conversation with Graendal, and knows more about Rand than Graendal does. And Graendal talks to Sammael about Rand not liking to kill women (Lord of Chaos, chapter 23). If Graendal knew, of course Lanfear knew. She had traveled with Rand as Selene and heard him say things like, "A man who will not die to save a woman is no man." (thats from The Great Hunt, chapter 16 In the Mirror of Darkness, and Rand said it to Lanfear)

 

Also, people always measure others using themselves as a guide, she would have killed herself in the same scenario, there is no reason for her to think that Rand wouldn't do likewise.

 

Thats just silly. Intelligent people know that other people don't always act the same way they would.

 

No, what Moiraine did was not trapping, it was more like circumstances of the pattern clicking together with te help of a tavaren.

 

If it makes you feel better, you can keep believing that. But its silly. Everything Moiraine did was done in accordance with her foreknowledge of the situation. She saw the whole thing in the rings of Rhuidean. When you know whats going to happen, and deliberately set it up so they happen that way, its called a trap. Thats what Moiraine did.

[Cybertrolloc]

Rand's point of view: mostly standoff, she backs toward the wagon, then he kind of zones. Next he knows, she's on the wagon and he's getting beat down. It's not great, but it's what we have.

 

The weird thing is why go to the docks? Mo dragged them there, and didn't give Rand a reason before the fight. We didn't get much more from her PoV before disappearing besides what's in the letter (the "it always led to the docks part").

 

Even with the Aiel "you'll see things in the ring that must happen and must not happen" stuff, it rings a little hollow. But it's written...lyrically...those are always the hardest parts for us to agree on what's happening.

[Thor]

To RAW: you think Lanfear is intelligent? power mad maybe, but not intelligent.

 

And there are power gauges, Aviendha and Egwene were right there, they would have said that Lanfear suddenly got stronger instead of just "she was so strong" or something like that.

 

And as Cybertrolloc pointed out (and I forgot), the fight didn't start with Lanfear standing in front of the doorway, she was far from it. It is still because of Rand's avareness that things happened the way they did.

 

If that's a trap, then it is a scooby doo trap that went wrong but somehow worked. and such only happens in stories, hence it is not a trap.

[Gentled Ben]

To RAW: you think Lanfear is intelligent? power mad maybe, but not intelligent.

 

I'm not RAW. I'm perhaps even a bit over-cooked, but please allow me to respond. According to the BWB, she was a scientist at the Colaam Daan in the AOL. She is either intelligent, or the job listing read something like, "Wanted: One mad scientist to wield vast amounts of the OP in experimental ways. Ambition considered more important than intelligence. Inquire in person."

 

 

Aviendha and Egwene were right there,

Yeah, screaming and losing consciousness from the pain.

 

they would have said that Lanfear suddenly got stronger

 

Or they would have gone from screaming to unconsciousness.

 

And as Cybertrolloc pointed out (and I forgot), the fight didn't start with Lanfear standing in front of the doorway, she was far from it.

 

And as Cybertrolloc also pointed out, the fight went from a stand off, to Rand beating her back, to her backing up against the wagon (where the angreal had been placed), to suddenly, Lanfear beating Rand down. That's your sudden increase in power, Thor. That's when the needle on your meter jumped. That's when she got stronger, when she backed up against the wagon, and then rallied, having seized the angreal.

 

such only happens in stories, hence it is not a trap.

 

Dude, it's a story, hence, it's a trap.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To RAW: you think Lanfear is intelligent? power mad maybe, but not intelligent.

 

I guess thats because you couldn't see her number on the "intelligence-meter" right? -shaking my head-

 

And there are power gauges, Aviendha and Egwene were right there, they would have said that Lanfear suddenly got stronger instead of just "she was so strong" or something like that.

 

Yes of course! I mean, they weren't busy screaming in agony at the moment. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH LIGHT IT HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURTS ... um Rand, her power just went up ... AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

And as Cybertrolloc pointed out (and I forgot), the fight didn't start with Lanfear standing in front of the doorway, she was far from it. It is still because of Rand's avareness that things happened the way they did.

 

No, its because she saw the angreal that Moiraine purposely put out that she moved. Rand's "avareness" had nothing to do with it.

 

If that's a trap, then it is a scooby doo trap that went wrong but somehow worked. and such only happens in stories, hence it is not a trap.

 

Maybe you should go have some scooby snacks and think about that statement.

[cloglord]

We do have a Lanfear power meter.

 

It is nearly impossible to shield someone holding the power, unless you are much stronger than that person. Lanfear doesn't start trying to shiled Rand until she bumps into that wagon.

 

If she had the angreal before the fight, why didn't she start off by trying to shield Rand? She clearly thought that it was a winning strategy, so why does she switch from trying to kill Rand to trying to shield him? The simple answer is that she found the angreal, and assumed that that would be enough of an increase to allow her to shield the srongest male channeler ever.

[SBoydW]

If that's a trap, then it is a scooby doo trap that went wrong but somehow worked. and such only happens in stories, hence it is not a trap.

 

Last time I checked Wheel of Time is a story... and just because a trap may not go as planned, (even though this one did) but still works.... it's still a TRAP.