Rand Kneeling to Empress (speculation)

[Mystica]

Light, Luckers. That would be a scene I'd LOVE to see. Caddy versus Fortuona. Would be epic to the umptieth degree that one. At least I hope..... (the Amyrlin's Anger chapter was quite a let down for me personally. The title promising something special but the scene turned out to be rather bland to me).

 

I get why most people from our world would be utterly disgusted with the Seanchan culture, given our own history with slavery. However, they may find our way to be barbaric in turn. Think about it. Our societies have crime the likes of which would not be possible in the Seanchan Empire. Their slaves have more rights than some of our free citizens, not to mention that the higher level slaves in Seanchan also have authority the likes of which most of our politicians can only dream of. Our concept of slavery is very much collored by the absolute dispicable way slaves were treated in our world (and we SHOULD be disgusted by it and never, EVER forget how disgusting it is!). But the Seanchan culture is so far from our history that the two simply can not be compared. Free men and women actively seek out to become da'covale because it's one of the few ways for commoners to rise in status and rank. How's that for a twist? Give up your freedom to gain status. The only part of the Seanchan culture that is on equal footing with our concept of slavery is the way they threat channelers. THAT is pure and outright slavery as we know it and every bit as dispicable as our own was.

 

There are many things that are 'wrong' in the Seanchan culture. But the same can be said of any other culture in Randland, where no country or culture is perfect or deprived of human failure. But what is absolutely undisputable, is that in the areas under Seanchan controle, people seem more content, at peace and safe than anywhere else. As Rand himself notices right before veins of gold. Despite their dispicable slavery, the Seanchan bring security, order and safety to it's people to such a point that the Tuatha'An, notorious for their wandering ways, for the first time in thousands of years decide to settle down in one spot and are being treated fairly by those we would call barabaric. Much more fairly than they've been treated by the 'enlightened' nations from Randland (including Andor and Tar Valon, neither of which made the Tinkers feel safe enough to settle in either place).

 

 

So personally, yes I'm beyond against the concept of their treatment of channelers. But I don't see the Seanchan concept of slavery the same as the one we are used to in our world. If people willingly and eagerly seek out to become property, that is a clear indication that it's not utterly evil. No one would willingly choose to be a slave otherwise. The only ones that don't have a choice are the channelers and hence why that element of Seanchan slavery is as dispicable as ours ever was in my opinion. But for the rest... No, I wouldn't call them barbaric at all.

[yoniy0]

Myst, that's overly simplistic. People sometimes willingly and eagerly sell their organs, even though laws exist against that in some countries. That doesn't mean that they're not being unfairly exploited.

[Din]

"The Empress has no equal!" the man who spoke was of the low Blood, his face tight with anger. Fortuona permitted herself no reaction to the words of the marath'damane.

 

"Indeed?" The woman, Cadsuane, spoke mildly, not looking up from her knitting. In truth she barely seemed to be paying attention. "An interesting concept; I wonder if it gave Radhanan any comfort when Semirhage was painting the Crystal Throne with her blood?"

 

For a moment there was shocked silence, then with an inarticulate roar of rage, the lord flung himself at the marath'damane, sword in hand as if it had always been there. But as fast as he moved one of those men in those eye-twisting coats moved faster, and the lords head flew clean. Blood rained down on the marath'daman, but she did not flinch. Calmly, using what she had been knitting, Cadsuane wiped the blood from her face. Fortuona could see what it was, now. A man, kneeling to a woman; only now the woman was covered in blood. Fortuona shivered, despite herself.

So.. uhh... I hear they hired you to write the remaining outrigger books...

[Luckers]

Lol. I don't regard the above as particularily well written, i was just making a point.

 

 

Thank you, though. :)

[ironisles]

Lol. I don't regard the above as particularily well written, i was just making a point.

 

 

Thank you, though. :)

 

It's as good as plenty of writer's put out.

[dmanmiller34]

This is how I think its going to go down. Now that Rand is not Dark and well... almost evil. I think that through using Mat, Rand will meet with Fortuna again. This time he will take Perrin, since he already has that one general in his pocket that he took Malden with. With three taveren in one plave anything could happen. I know this sounds stupid but I think Fortuna will be seated in her throne and Rand will approach her. NOW woth the three taveren in the room odds will be twisted to the fact that Rand will find the one uneven floor tile or carpet or something ands will trip and fall landing with one knee to the floor in front of Fortuna.

 

In this manner the she will see into his eyes and see a different person than the one she met before. Rand tripping in front of her and "kneeling" will fulfil the profecy without acknowledging her authroiry or submitting in anyway. From there The rest is in the bag. Just speculation on my part but Its jsut as likely as any other theroy.

[Winespring Patron]

Light, Luckers. That would be a scene I'd LOVE to see. Caddy versus Fortuona. Would be epic to the umptieth degree that one. At least I hope.....

 

Possibly, but I still think a Egwene vs Fortuona confrontation would have more fireworks, the Seanchan were already on Egwene's back-burner during her White Tower Consolidation Campaign. Now that they have dared to raid the the White Tower and collect marath'damane I expect that she will respond very strongly to anymore aggression. I'm still surprised that she didn't allow for the possibility of the Seanchan gaining the ability to Travel, maybe she could have High Lord Perrin move the Dreamspike (she already suspects his TAR ability) from the Black Tower to Tar Valon or have Elayne invent an anti-gateway ter'angreal?

 

Anyway, I digress from the original topic: Egwene meeting the Supreme Seanchan Leader who not only advocates leashing women who can channel but brags about doing it personally is liable to be the one thing that trips her fuse and send her ballistic. All her Aes Sedai calmness and reserve will go out the window when she has a flashback of her Falme experience.

[FarShainMael]

Myst, re slavery in our world.. I read somewhere that Roman Empire slaves often preferred slavery to freedom because of the perks. History is most definitely not my strong point; is there someone out there who could enlighten us? Did RJ model this aspect of Seanchan society on the Romans?

 

Also, I'd like to ask a question. I'm rather nervous about doing so because of the VERY high risk that my reasons will be misunderstood.. but my question is a serious request for information about something that has genuinely puzzled me as an Aspie* for a very long time. It's this: the word 'ignorant' simply neans 'not knowing'. No-one can possiby know everything, so why is it so often used in a pejorative sense? What am I missing in the subtext?

 

*someone with Asperger's Syndrome

[Aspar]

Anyway, I digress from the original topic: Egwene meeting the Supreme Seanchan Leader who not only advocates leashing women who can channel but brags about doing it personally is liable to be the one thing that trips her fuse and send her ballistic. All her Aes Sedai calmness and reserve will go out the window when she has a flashback of her Falme experience.

 

But Egwene passed that test - she was colared again and remained calm enough to free herself.

[Hybrid]

It's this: the word 'ignorant' simply neans 'not knowing'. No-one can possiby know everything, so why is it so often used in a pejorative sense?

 

As far as I know, when "ignorant" used pejoratively what is "not known" is considered to be an obvious or basic truth by the accuser.

[FarShainMael]

OK, what obvious or basic truth are the Seanchan unaware of? (That is not intended to be in any way a hostile comment.) They are, after all, a culture which has been split off from Randland for centuries. How is anything that happens there in any way obvious to them?

 

On the subject of slavery, as I've said, it can be beneficial - it doesn't have to be the cruel, tyrannical, debasing slavery that a lot of the white races inflicted a lot of the black, refusing even to see them as human.* A benevolent system of owning the perhaps less bright or skilled is something the Seanchan might see as normal, natural, even desirable. I'm not saying it is, only that they might see it that way - I'm playing devil's advocate here.

 

I must search out that thing about the Romans..

 

*Actually, that wasn't exactly obvious either. They were so different. They looked different, they acted different, they even smelled different (as we did to them!) They didn't even talk proper like what we did. Who would imagine they could possibly be human? A few more enlightened souls looked at them more closely - and were shocked by what they found.

[Suttree]

I get why most people from our world would be utterly disgusted with the Seanchan culture, given our own history with slavery. However, they may find our way to be barbaric in turn. Think about it. Our societies have crime the likes of which would not be possible in the Seanchan Empire. Their slaves have more rights than some of our free citizens, not to mention that the higher level slaves in Seanchan also have authority the likes of which most of our politicians can only dream of. Our concept of slavery is very much collored by the absolute dispicable way slaves were treated in our world (and we SHOULD be disgusted by it and never, EVER forget how disgusting it is!). But the Seanchan culture is so far from our history that the two simply can not be compared. Free men and women actively seek out to become da'covale because it's one of the few ways for commoners to rise in status and rank. How's that for a twist? Give up your freedom to gain status. The only part of the Seanchan culture that is on equal footing with our concept of slavery is the way they threat channelers. THAT is pure and outright slavery as we know it and every bit as dispicable as our own was.

 

 

The problem here Mystica, is your perception is a bit off in terms of the reality of slavery in Seanchan culture. The only group that could potentially have more rights than commoners in Randland are so'jhin to the High Blood. This is an extremely small group when looking at the over all whole. The lives of ordinary slaves are every bit as horrific as in our own history. The covale or "property" can be "bought and sold along with animals and household goods". Families are torn apart with no say and given the outfits slaves wear sexual abuse is most likely rampant:

 

WH A Matter of Property CH21 Pg487 in PB

 

"And now he was so'jhin. There was nothing wrong with bedding your own so'jhin, of course, so long as you did not flaunt the fact"

 

 

Seanchan is a place in which:

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks. That is not to say that there are no power struggles, only that almost all of them are between members of the same class. The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

 

Far from being a good thing as you seem to imply, people selling themselves and future generations are doing so out of desperation. The class structure is so stratified that without any other way to move forward people:

 

BWB

It is a rare honor for a commoner of free birth to be chosen as a high-level servant, but one that is eagerly sought, for it is one of the few ways to advance beyond one's station of birth. The loss of freedom, even for future generations, is believed a very small price to pay for such advancement.

 

So even though the honor is "rare" people sell "future generations" freedom away for the mere chance at advancement. Not sure how a society where this is your only option could be looked on in a favorable light.

[Mystica]

Myst, that's overly simplistic. People sometimes willingly and eagerly sell their organs, even though laws exist against that in some countries. That doesn't mean that they're not being unfairly exploited.

 

So is it overly simplistic to call the Seanchan barbaric. There is nothing 'simple' about the Seanchan and they are perhaps the most complicated culture in the entire books. Layers upon layers of hierarchy, intertwined with authority, submission, rank upon status upon station upon role. I've researched this culture for the RP side and trust me, 'simple' or barbaric aren't the words I would use.

 

Yes, my post was simplified, but that was due to time limitations. But if you look at the entire post and not just one sentence, it does touch on more than just the part you picked out.

 

In the longer version I would have added that in some situations becoming da'covale is a blessing, in others it's a curse and one so bad that the person being under threat of being made da'covale would prefer death over that faith. But that has to do with gain/loss of honor as the Seanchan see it. There are so many layers of slaves in their culture, that it's almost impossible to cover them all and not end up with an uberlong post, which I'm trying to avoid doing.

 

The Seanchan are a VERY complex culture in which honor, ambition, rank, status, service, loyalty, etc are all intertwined in a way that makes any non-Seanchan's head spin. To lift out one aspect of the culture and use that to label the entire culture as barbaric, is also quite simplistic in my humble opinion.

 

 

Light, Luckers. That would be a scene I'd LOVE to see. Caddy versus Fortuona. Would be epic to the umptieth degree that one. At least I hope.....

 

Possibly, but I still think a Egwene vs Fortuona confrontation would have more fireworks, the Seanchan were already on Egwene's back-burner during her White Tower Consolidation Campaign. Now that they have dared to raid the the White Tower and collect marath'damane I expect that she will respond very strongly to anymore aggression. I'm still surprised that she didn't allow for the possibility of the Seanchan gaining the ability to Travel, maybe she could have High Lord Perrin move the Dreamspike (she already suspects his TAR ability) from the Black Tower to Tar Valon or have Elayne invent an anti-gateway ter'angreal?

 

Anyway, I digress from the original topic: Egwene meeting the Supreme Seanchan Leader who not only advocates leashing women who can channel but brags about doing it personally is liable to be the one thing that trips her fuse and send her ballistic. All her Aes Sedai calmness and reserve will go out the window when she has a flashback of her Falme experience.

 

 

That would indeed be something to see too, but then only if Egwene didn't end up miraculously getting over her trauma. It needs to stay believable. As you say, this is the one thing that breaches her self controle, so if this confrontation is to happen, I really want to see her struggle with that. I like Egwene, despite her tendency to be a bit too 'men, stupid. woman, smart.' (which I still believe is a result of her upbringing and environmental influences more than her character). But in this, I want to see her go through the necessary healing process because trauma's like this just don't go poof in the night.

 

Although..... I always wondered how Alivia managed to stay sane after 400+ years of being a damane.

 

 

Myst, re slavery in our world.. I read somewhere that Roman Empire slaves often preferred slavery to freedom because of the perks. History is most definitely not my strong point; is there someone out there who could enlighten us? Did RJ model this aspect of Seanchan society on the Romans?

 

Also, I'd like to ask a question. I'm rather nervous about doing so because of the VERY high risk that my reasons will be misunderstood.. but my question is a serious request for information about something that has genuinely puzzled me as an Aspie* for a very long time. It's this: the word 'ignorant' simply neans 'not knowing'. No-one can possiby know everything, so why is it so often used in a pejorative sense? What am I missing in the subtext?

 

*someone with Asperger's Syndrome

 

 

I actually have no idea how the roman slavery worked, but I don't recall them having the same level of multiple layering with such high authority granted to slaves. I think they did have an obligation towars their slaves if they were to set them free (same, I think, for the Egyptians), but I honestly couldn't say for sure. Corki might be the one to answer this. He studied this culture if I'm not mistaken.

[Mystica]

@ Suttree

 

sorry, I'm too tired to quote your post so I hope you'll be able to follow me as I go. Didn't want to ignore your post.

 

 

From 'our' point of view, you are correct. But from the Seanchan point of view this system works for them. 'Knowing ones place' is an integral part of the Seanchan culture and that goes from high to low. On many occasions in the books it is shown that the da'covale of any level are absolutely convinced that one should know their place and not try to rise above their station. This may seem brainwashed bullcrap to us, with our experience of freedom as we know it, but my point is that we need to look at them from 'their' perspective. I didn't say that it was the perfect society, but neither can you deny the fact that the Seanchan culture is the one with the lowest crime rate in all of Randland and that includes Andor and Tar Valon.

 

So even though the honor is "rare" people sell "future generations" freedom away for the mere chance at advancement. Not sure how a society where this is your only option could be looked on in a favorable light.

 

they sell their freedom to become one of the upper level slaves and those are hereditary positions. They don't sell their freedom to become a lower level slave, hoping they'll be promoted to the higher level ones some day.

 

And it's not just So'Jihn that are higher level slaves. The Deathwatch Guard (excepting the Ogier Gardners) are all also higher level slaves. So are the Seekers of Truth as well as the Sul'dam and even the Truth Speaker to the Daughter of the Nine Moons or the Empress herself.

 

 

To be clear, I'm not in favor of such a society in our world, but this isn't our world. This is WOT world. And the fact of the matter is that the Seanchan do hold the lowest crime rate of all the lands and they threat everyone the same, whether they are original Seanchan or not.

 

 

One can argue whether Tear is then so much better with teh High Lords and Ladies ruling the place as individual dictators threating commoners as not much better than slaves and taking whatever girls they want for their pleasure with no rule whatsoever to govern them. This was the way things were in Tear before Rand put a stop to it. And these were supposedly 'free' people. And yet, they still didn't have an inch more to say when a father saw his daugher being brutally abused by one of the Lords or even one of the lordlings.

[Suttree]

I didn't say that it was the perfect society, but neither can you deny the fact that the Seanchan culture is the one with the lowest crime rate in all of Randland and that includes Andor and Tar Valon.

 

My answer to this is at what cost to personnel freedom? The difference between Andor and Tar Valon in crime rates is very small if there even is one. But in Seanchan you can be pulled from your homes in the middle of the night, held/tortured, never to be seen again for potentially whispering the wrong words. You will be killed if you meet the eyes of the empress. The nobles sport with putting adam on men to see if they will die screaming. It is a police state with heavy propaganda to keep people in line. The irony its it is a country that has been wracked by violent conflict. Karede mentions having put down "numerous" rebellions in his time with the DW guard indicating people are not happy or content with their place. Teh worst part is even with loss of personnel freedom security is not a guarantee.

 

they sell their freedom to become one of the upper level slaves and those are hereditary positions. They don't sell their freedom to become a lower level slave, hoping they'll be promoted to the higher level ones some day.

 

I'm willing to admit I might have a faulty understanding of how this works but with how "rare" an honor it is I can't imagine you would just be a free person who is all of a sudden chosen so'jhin to the high blood and then decides to sell your freedom. Again regardless there is "little movement between the ranks" so my point still holds.

 

And it's not just So'Jihn that are higher level slaves. The Deathwatch Guard (excepting the Ogier Gardners) are all also higher level slaves. So are the Seekers of Truth as well as the Sul'dam and even the Truth Speaker to the Daughter of the Nine Moons or the Empress herself.

 

Sul'dam as far as I know are not slaves. As for the rest they would all fall under that small percentage of being property of the empress or high blood. This changes nothing about my points of how your average slave would be treated.

 

 

One can argue whether Tear is then so much better with teh High Lords and Ladies ruling the place as individual dictators threating commoners as not much better than slaves and taking whatever girls they want for their pleasure with no rule whatsoever to govern them. This was the way things were in Tear before Rand put a stop to it. And these were supposedly 'free' people. And yet, they still didn't have an inch more to say when a father saw his daugher being brutally abused by one of the Lords or even one of the lordlings.

 

People always seem to bring up Tear pre-Rand as it is the only example they can use the even remotely comes close to how Seanchan abuse their slaves. Would just like to point out it s by far the worst example in Randland and other Monarchies are not even remotely equivalent.

[yoniy0]

debasing slavery that a lot of the white races inflicted a lot of the black, refusing even to see them as human.*

You must be joking. Europe has seen just as many 'white' people treated the same way. China as well. We don't only enslave those physically different from us. Slavery is fairly intrinsic to the human state, I think, at least before we grew a bit more civilized. I dearly hope that's not merely a trend, though I can't be positively sure.

 

 

Myst, yes, we judge the Seanchan culture by our own standards. This isn't an anthropological debate, not for me. And by my standards, they are found severely wanting. Crime is an ever present danger in modern western states, but it's a small price to pay for personal liberties.

 

PS Tar Valon's seen a non-existing crime level for most of its existence, so I'm not sure why you unfavorably compare it to the Seanchan empire. Of course that's not a fair comparison, since policing a single city is incomparable to policing an entire continent.

[FarShainMael]

My comment did not exclude other examples of slavery.

 

The author James Blish (in his book

A Case of Conscience ) played (very) briefly with the notion of money being a form of slavery.

[yoniy0]

Oh, sorry, I thought that was what you suggested in your comment, that we only enslave those we don't consider to be truly human. I tend to think it actually works the other way around.

[Aspar]

Uhm, guys, am I the only one who is bothered that there is a discussion about how good and positive slavery can be? And I don't think it's wrong only from modern day perspective. I'll agree treatment of commoners in some states in Randland is wrong and I generally don't like the idea that someone should be in charge of a country because his/her parents were. But Rand is trying to change that. So from his perspective it's also wrong. How do you feel TR folk would react if someone told them they can be sold as animals and they can be proud of it, because they know their place in society. No, slavery is universally wrong. The fact that you have to become a slave to progress is not a positive, but quite a negative part of Seanchan's ways.

 

That would indeed be something to see too, but then only if Egwene didn't end up miraculously getting over her trauma. It needs to stay believable. As you say, this is the one thing that breaches her self controle, so if this confrontation is to happen, I really want to see her struggle with that. I like Egwene, despite her tendency to be a bit too 'men, stupid. woman, smart.' (which I still believe is a result of her upbringing and environmental influences more than her character). But in this, I want to see her go through the necessary healing process because trauma's like this just don't go poof in the night

 

Wasn't that trauma addressed when Mesaana colared Egwene

[David Selig]

When you think a bit how this low crime rate was achieved by the Seanchan, it doesn't sound like much to brag about. They have a secret police with informers everywhere and the Seekers can arrest and torture whoever they want without bothering with anything resembling a trial. As Egeanin put it succinctly "“Seekers do no need proof, Seekers do find proof, and the finding do be painful.”

[Swithin]

Not to get in the way of the interesting discussion of Seanchan culture and slavery in tWoT, but I wanted to quickly address the original question.

 

Personally, I don't think the Seanchan prophecy of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne is an actual foretelling (Oh you, Ishamael <shrugs>.) That said, I think Servant Rand will honor it voluntarily. He's tanned, he's rested, he's ready to save the world. He needs Tuon's support, and their awesome meeting in TGS has set up (what seems to me) a straightforward but equally awesome second interview, in which a genuinely humble and resolute Rand will kill her with kindness. Brandon's writing in their first encounter was brilliant, and it set up the framework for their future negotiation: Tuon is able to resist the full weight of his Ta'veren pull, and the whole passage was her struggle to refuse to submit to him involuntarily. I don't expect her awesomeness to be undone, so it becomes about what can happen to make her fall in line voluntarily (pretty much all the changes from Dark Rand to Rand Sedai.) I'm hoping and expecting their next meeting to go smoothly, and for Rand to make it clear that her culture is a part of the world he wants to serve and save (she might even volunteer reconsidering the damane system.)

 

And Luckers, that was an awesome passage you wrote!

[cmsnaith]

Just a quick word on the debate concerning Seanchan culture.

 

Crime rate may be low, but doesn't the Empire have to deal with constant rebellions? That, to me, speaks of the oppressive nature of their culture more than anything, especially considering that the Empire is in total chaos now. Sure, a Forsaken initiated it by wiping out the ruling family, but IMO, the fact that a clear leader wasn't able to step up and take charge, and instead chaos ensued across the entire empire speaks volumes about the fragility of it all.

[Mandro]

The AoL was also an authoritarian nation. Rand spoke not at all about the culture once he got his memories in full. But his ancestors memories from the spires are quite clear. You stood in line, and were sorted for your task. The young women and boys of certain ages had no choice, they would become AS, live the Way of the Leaf, or become soldiers. Those not easily organized lived under the thumb of the AS.

 

[edited cuz I messed up a rewrite.]

[Mystica]

I'm going to quit talking about the slavery thing, since that seems to be the only thing people focuss on and that wasn't my intention when talking about the Seanchan culture. Pretty soon (if not already) I'll be labelled a 'lover of slavery' which is absolutely not true. So before it gets to that, I'm out of that discussion.

 

Not to get in the way of the interesting discussion of Seanchan culture and slavery in tWoT, but I wanted to quickly address the original question.

 

Personally, I don't think the Seanchan prophecy of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne is an actual foretelling (Oh you, Ishamael <shrugs>.) That said, I think Servant Rand will honor it voluntarily. He's tanned, he's rested, he's ready to save the world. He needs Tuon's support, and their awesome meeting in TGS has set up (what seems to me) a straightforward but equally awesome second interview, in which a genuinely humble and resolute Rand will kill her with kindness. Brandon's writing in their first encounter was brilliant, and it set up the framework for their future negotiation: Tuon is able to resist the full weight of his Ta'veren pull, and the whole passage was her struggle to refuse to submit to him involuntarily. I don't expect her awesomeness to be undone, so it becomes about what can happen to make her fall in line voluntarily (pretty much all the changes from Dark Rand to Rand Sedai.) I'm hoping and expecting their next meeting to go smoothly, and for Rand to make it clear that her culture is a part of the world he wants to serve and save (she might even volunteer reconsidering the damane system.)

 

And Luckers, that was an awesome passage you wrote!

 

 

You're absolutely right, Swithin. Sorry we derailed the topic so much.

 

Rand is genuinly humble since VOG and the one thing that struck me in the scene when Tuon resisted him was her terror at having to obey such an obvious Dark energy that eminated from him at the time. It's very possible that this total opposite Rand from what she met will create a very different reaction in her, but there is the thing that (even at the time) she felt that she couldn't meet with him as equals if she was Empress (which is why she hadn't declared herself yet). Tuon has shown equal stubborness when it comes to her beliefs and it's hard to believe that she'll relent as Empress, more to the contrary. She ordered the attack on the White Tower immediately after her meeting with Rand went astray and is now committed, having already ordered a full force attack to follow the first one. I would like to see happen what you describe, but I fear something else must take place first to set the pieces that will allow it to happen.

 

Perhaps she'll be kidnapped by Mat again and brought to Rand to talk (where she'd meet Caddy and Lucker's scene can unfold too).

 

Another possibility of how she might be forced to talk to Rand could be in the Dream, though I'm not sure if Rand possesses enough skills in TAR, but perhaps with Perrin's assistance it could be done. She could then wake up, spew some stuff about how she had several Omens and turn the Seanchan ship around. Far fetched this though, I'm not very much in favor of this one.

 

Oh, and also. Just because Rand is now humbled doesn't necessary mean he'll voluntarily kneel. He approached Egwene quite politely and appologised to her openly but never bent his neck, eventhough she is the Amyrlin and even Kings bow to the Amyrlin. So Rand's version of being polite may not necessarily coincide with the Seanchan idea of it. But I think they're going to have to take what he gives and not have a choice about it.

[Swithin]

Oh, and also. Just because Rand is now humbled doesn't necessary mean he'll voluntarily kneel. He approached Egwene quite politely and appologised to her openly but never bent his neck, eventhough she is the Amyrlin and even Kings bow to the Amyrlin. So Rand's version of being polite may not necessarily coincide with the Seanchan idea of it. But I think they're going to have to take what he gives and not have a choice about it.

 

I do think the newly-enlightened Rand feels deep toh toward Fortuona, something which can't be said about his relationship with Egwene. Although to the reader Rand's newfound clarity makes up for his time spent as Dark Rand, the character himself is motivated (sincerely) to make amends for a lot of bad behavior (Tam, Cadsuane, Hurin, etc.) Trying use his Dragon Aura to force a major people (through their figurehead) to bend to his will... I can see him kneeling in contrition, if not fealty.

 

Not quite sure how they'll end up face-to-face again, but I think we're together in hoping for Mat-related shenanigans. :)