Lews Therin newsflash

[Terez]

To be fair, we lost that when RJ died. When Brandon took over, we only gained. But I'm sure that's what you meant.

[WWWwombat]

I've never seen the idea that LTT mindtrapped himself before and tbh I like it. It's unlikely imo, but it is interesting that both Rand's birth and his integration with LTT (or "LTT" if you prefer) happened on Dragonmount.

 

I don't really have a stance on Real vs. Construct because it doesn't really matter much to me. I would probably like to believe that LTT is "Real" but even if he is a construct, that doesn't make the personality any less valid or real imo.

 

Also, do people still believe in Taint Barrier Degradation?

[jemron]

I loved the "Taint Barrier Degredation" theory back in the day. I still like the idea of it, but Luckers has a point about Semirahge not likely lying. It sounds more like this is just a result (though very rare) of the madness.

 

Still, I feel like everyone in the world of the WoT has some minor recollection of their past lives, no matter how fleeting it may be. Just as many, if not everyone, very rarely passes into T'A'R as they sleep, I think they have minor moments of nostalgia or dejavu-like experiences that they can't explain that relate to past lives. I think certain people (like the Dragon and other ta'veren) have that even stronger.

[Mik]

I've always assumed LTT has been in Rand's head from the first time he seized Saidin.

Most people did (especially people named James L).

Are you kidding us?

Well, I'd say most people (and Terez) were wrong then.

Gitara calls the baby born on Dragonmount the Dragon the very moment he is born on Dragonmount. It's not like she had a choice since it was a Foretelling that cost her life. You think the Pattern itself was playing a joke on us all there?

 

Only one man actually is the Dragon; Lews Therin Telamon. I'm surprised this is news.

All we have to do is check out the Glossaries where the Dragon is explained:

 

Dragon, Prophecies of the:

Little known and seldom spoken of, the Prophecies, given in The Karaethon Cycle, foretell that the Dark One will be freed again to touch the world. And that

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai’don, the Last Battle against the Shadow. See also Dragon, the.

 

Dragon, the:

The name by which Lews Therin Telamon was known during the War of the Shadow. In the madness that overtook all male Aes Sedai, Lews Therin killed

every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved, thus earning the name Kinslayer. See also Dragon Reborn; Dragon, Prophecies

of the.

 

Dragon Reborn:

According to prophecy and legend the Dragon will be born again at mankind’s greatest hour of need to save the world. This is not something people look

forward to, both because the Prophecies say the Dragon Reborn will bring a new Breaking to the world and because Lews Therin Kinslayer, the Dragon, is a name

to make men shudder, even more than three thousand years after his death. See also Dragon, the; Dragon, false; Dragon, Prophecies of the.

 

If that's not enough for you,...

The Heroes of the Horn that speak (as early as TGH) actually call the man in front of them 'Lews Therin'!

You meaning to tell me that's because of the Taint?...or insanity?

How about because -like Hawkwing himself tells us- "I know you, if you do not know yourself".

That means Lews Therin is there, even though Rand doesn't realize it.

 

Not just a somehow Taint induced little fleeting memory to a past life like you seem to suggest. But the person himself.

 

And to show that the living mind of Lews Therin was hiding inside Rand ever since he was born on Dragonmount, we have Chapter 9 of TEotW.

That's the first time Rand actually recalls a memory from Lews Therin. Both Shayol Ghul (a place Rand never ever saw) and the voice of Ishamael (a voice we know Lews Therin knew) who Rand thinks is 'a familiar voice'.

 

Both these memories are experienced well before Rand touches the Source for the first time. The first time that happens is in Chapter 11 when he removes Bela's fatigue. See the quote about the memories below. We can see it started before saidin use/ taint touching.

 

It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with helplessness. From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope. That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his deso lation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there.

 

.../ /...

 

Serve me, a voice whispered in the stillness of his mind. A familiar voice. If he listened hard enough he was sure he would know it. Serve me. He shook his head to try to get it out of his head. Serve me! He shook his fist at the black mountain.

“The Light consume you, Shai’tan!”

Abruptly the smell of death lay thick around him. A figure loomed over him, in a cloak the color of dried blood, a figure with a face... He did not want to see the face that looked down at him.

 

 

How else could LTT seize Saidin and create Deathgates in KoD?

Insanity.

Are you kidding me?

 

Per Moiraine's own words to Egwene in TEotW (you know; an Aes Sedai that can't lie) we know that it takes a living mind to channel.

Lews Therins living mind drew on Saidin. For the rest he acts like he's practically mind-trapped inside Rand.

Rand has to move the body, while Lews Therins mind does the channeling.

 

Moiraine made a clicking sound: “I have told you, child, things do not have power. The One Power comes from the True Source, and only a living mind can wield it

 

As Lews Therins unintentional self-made prison (the Seals over the Bore, the spot where the Dragon Soul is woven into the Pattern) is breaking down, so are Lews Therins limitations.

 

 

Not only did LTT show him how, but knew what it was called.

Rand knew what they were called. Lews Therin didn't have to tell him.

Yet Lews Therin had to ask for Rand to move his body.

 

Maybe it's like Shaidar told the 'gars?

"The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body.

 

Note that there's a clear distinction between Body, Soul & Mind being made right there.

A distinction we know for truth because of how Aran'gar progresses; his mind did bend to his female body.

 

I've never seen the idea that LTT mindtrapped himself before and tbh I like it. It's unlikely imo, but it is interesting that both Rand's birth and his integration with LTT (or "LTT" if you prefer) happened on Dragonmount.

Thanks! I consider that a compliment. (and a daring one after Suttree's comparison).

 

I didn't ask the question about his birth for nothing repeatedly here.

It just doesn't get answered...

"Why did prophecy demand that the Dragon be reborn on Dragonmount"?

 

I like to think it was the fact that Lews Therin mindtrapped his own mind when he died, thus not dying 'the final death', like LTT himself claims so often.

The Dragon his living mind needs to be able to find the right soul. That's why the Dragon has to be reborn right at the spot where the Dragon once died.

 

Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, I also think it fits the story about the Champion of Life best. The Dragon didn't die completely. That part that makes him Lews Therin survived all this time.

 

Consider that when reading these sections at the end of the Prologue of TEotW:

 

The mind twisting had struck at the core, ignoring peripheral things.

 

…/ /… He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory. The eyes pursued him through the endless caverns of his mind. He could not hide from them.

 

…/ /… “Light, forgive me!” He did not believe it could come [Lews Therin did not think he could escape his memories], forgiveness. Not for what he had done. But he shouted to the sky anyway, begged for what he could not believe he could receive. “Light, forgive me!”

…/ /… The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony.

…/ /… At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters.

…/ /… For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound. (TEotW, Prologue – Dragonmount)

-----------------------------------

“All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” (TEotW, Prologue – Dragonmount)

[Ranskey]

This is a highly debated topic. I only ask this, if the voice is just madness and it is all a result of Rand going mad then how does he sometimes draw knowledge from LT. Do you guys think he has knowledge of LT and only the voice is a delusion? Isn't it possible that Rand is both going crazy and the voice is something real. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

[Kahsm]

I've always assumed LTT has been in Rand's head from the first time he seized Saidin.

Most people did (especially people named James L).

Are you kidding us?

Well, I'd say most people (and Terez) were wrong then.

Gitara calls the baby born on Dragonmount the Dragon the very moment he is born on Dragonmount. It's not like she had a choice since it was a Foretelling that cost her life. You think the Pattern itself was playing a joke on us all there?

 

Only one man actually is the Dragon; Lews Therin Telamon. I'm surprised this is news.

All we have to do is check out the Glossaries where the Dragon is explained:

 

Dragon, Prophecies of the:

Little known and seldom spoken of, the Prophecies, given in The Karaethon Cycle, foretell that the Dark One will be freed again to touch the world. And that

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai’don, the Last Battle against the Shadow. See also Dragon, the.

 

Dragon, the:

The name by which Lews Therin Telamon was known during the War of the Shadow. In the madness that overtook all male Aes Sedai, Lews Therin killed

every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved, thus earning the name Kinslayer. See also Dragon Reborn; Dragon, Prophecies

of the.

 

Dragon Reborn:

According to prophecy and legend the Dragon will be born again at mankind’s greatest hour of need to save the world. This is not something people look

forward to, both because the Prophecies say the Dragon Reborn will bring a new Breaking to the world and because Lews Therin Kinslayer, the Dragon, is a name

to make men shudder, even more than three thousand years after his death. See also Dragon, the; Dragon, false; Dragon, Prophecies of the.

 

If that's not enough for you,...

The Heroes of the Horn that speak (as early as TGH) actually call the man in front of them 'Lews Therin'!

You meaning to tell me that's because of the Taint?...or insanity?

How about because -like Hawkwing himself tells us- "I know you, if you do not know yourself".

That means Lews Therin is there, even though Rand doesn't realize it.

 

Not just a somehow Taint induced little fleeting memory to a past life like you seem to suggest. But the person himself.

 

And to show that the living mind of Lews Therin was hiding inside Rand ever since he was born on Dragonmount, we have Chapter 9 of TEotW.

That's the first time Rand actually recalls a memory from Lews Therin. Both Shayol Ghul (a place Rand never ever saw) and the voice of Ishamael (a voice we know Lews Therin knew) who Rand thinks is 'a familiar voice'.

 

Both these memories are experienced well before Rand touches the Source for the first time. The first time that happens is in Chapter 11 when he removes Bela's fatigue. See the quote about the memories below. We can see it started before saidin use/ taint touching.

 

It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with helplessness. From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope. That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his deso lation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there.

 

.../ /...

 

Serve me, a voice whispered in the stillness of his mind. A familiar voice. If he listened hard enough he was sure he would know it. Serve me. He shook his head to try to get it out of his head. Serve me! He shook his fist at the black mountain.

“The Light consume you, Shai’tan!”

Abruptly the smell of death lay thick around him. A figure loomed over him, in a cloak the color of dried blood, a figure with a face... He did not want to see the face that looked down at him.

 

 

How else could LTT seize Saidin and create Deathgates in KoD?

Insanity.

Are you kidding me?

 

Per Moiraine's own words to Egwene in TEotW (you know; an Aes Sedai that can't lie) we know that it takes a living mind to channel.

Lews Therins living mind drew on Saidin. For the rest he acts like he's practically mind-trapped inside Rand.

Rand has to move the body, while Lews Therins mind does the channeling.

 

Moiraine made a clicking sound: “I have told you, child, things do not have power. The One Power comes from the True Source, and only a living mind can wield it

 

As Lews Therins unintentional self-made prison (the Seals over the Bore, the spot where the Dragon Soul is woven into the Pattern) is breaking down, so are Lews Therins limitations.

 

 

Not only did LTT show him how, but knew what it was called.

Rand knew what they were called. Lews Therin didn't have to tell him.

Yet Lews Therin had to ask for Rand to move his body.

 

Maybe it's like Shaidar told the 'gars?

"The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body.

 

Note that there's a clear distinction between Body, Soul & Mind being made right there.

A distinction we know for truth because of how Aran'gar progresses; his mind did bend to his female body.

 

I've never seen the idea that LTT mindtrapped himself before and tbh I like it. It's unlikely imo, but it is interesting that both Rand's birth and his integration with LTT (or "LTT" if you prefer) happened on Dragonmount.

Thanks! I consider that a compliment. (and a daring one after Suttree's comparison).

 

I didn't ask the question about his birth for nothing repeatedly here.

It just doesn't get answered...

"Why did prophecy demand that the Dragon be reborn on Dragonmount"?

 

I like to think it was the fact that Lews Therin mindtrapped his own mind when he died, thus not dying 'the final death', like LTT himself claims so often.

The Dragon his living mind needs to be able to find the right soul. That's why the Dragon has to be reborn right at the spot where the Dragon once died.

 

Taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, I also think it fits the story about the Champion of Life best. The Dragon didn't die completely. That part that makes him Lews Therin survived all this time.

 

Consider that when reading these sections at the end of the Prologue of TEotW:

 

The mind twisting had struck at the core, ignoring peripheral things.

 

…/ /… He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory. The eyes pursued him through the endless caverns of his mind. He could not hide from them.

 

…/ /… “Light, forgive me!” He did not believe it could come [Lews Therin did not think he could escape his memories], forgiveness. Not for what he had done. But he shouted to the sky anyway, begged for what he could not believe he could receive. “Light, forgive me!”

…/ /… The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony.

…/ /… At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters.

…/ /… For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound. (TEotW, Prologue – Dragonmount)

-----------------------------------

“All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” (TEotW, Prologue – Dragonmount)

 

While my opinion is more in line with yours Mik than with Terez' (by leaps and bounds) I have a couple points that make me lean towards taint-catalysed memories from a past life and a fractured personality to "make sense" of those memories.

 

Your thoughts on the foretelling is interesting, but Rand is the Dragon Reborn, which means he's also The Dragon, just... reborn. Though I agree LTT's life is certainly accessible given the right catalyst.

 

Last time Rand's soul was in TAR he would have been going by the name LTT, which would pretty easily explain why Hawkwing would use that name. I totally agree this shows it's not a simple taint-induced insanity. But Rand is a new incarnation of that LTT soul, at the time the horn is blown he still denied it, but Hawkwing does know that soul better than Rand does, because Hawkwing has all the memories of all his own lives and therefore all the times he's fought with _all_ the incarnations of the dragon's soul (not just LTT).

 

So I don't see this as evidence that the 'living-mind' of LTT has to be there. Hawking simply knows the soul and uses the name he last knew for that soul.

 

The channeling is pretty easily explained via a fractured personality. Particularly given Rand's own insight that they were never two separate people. Rand was doing that channeling all along, he just didn't know what he was doing because he didn't yet have the practical knowledge to accompany his 'instinctual' channeling skill acquired from his LTT life through the taint. That doesn't require a separate 'living-mind' in his head, just denial that his own living-mind was the one channeling.

[Terez]

This is a highly debated topic. I only ask this, if the voice is just madness and it is all a result of Rand going mad then how does he sometimes draw knowledge from LT. Do you guys think he has knowledge of LT and only the voice is a delusion? Isn't it possible that Rand is both going crazy and the voice is something real. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

The memories are real. The voice is a delusion caused by madness.

[Mik]

While my opinion is more in line with yours Mik than with Terez' (by leaps and bounds) I have a couple points that make me lean towards taint-catalysed memories from a past life and a fractured personality to "make sense" of those memories.

As long as I managed to plant a tiny seed of doubt, my friend.

*evil grin*

 

Your thoughts on the foretelling is interesting, but Rand is the Dragon Reborn, which means he's also The Dragon, just... reborn. Though I agree LTT's life is certainly accessible given the right catalyst.

I'm not sure what the problem or point is. Let me counter that point by asking if you have a problem with both Isam and Luc being able to say they are Slayer? Now, I'm *not* saying Slayer and the Dragon are alike, but what you can say if you follow my line of reasoning is that it's one being with two personalities. Regardless of how they were cobbled together, RJ made one being where both the personalities can claim to be said being. If the writer did that, then what's the problem? If you still have a problem, then would you mind reprhasing?

 

Last time Rand's soul was in TAR he would have been going by the name LTT, which would pretty easily explain why Hawkwing would use that name. I totally agree this shows it's not a simple taint-induced insanity. But Rand is a new incarnation of that LTT soul, at the time the horn is blown he still denied it, but Hawkwing does know that soul better than Rand does, because Hawkwing has all the memories of all his own lives and therefore all the times he's fought with _all_ the incarnations of the dragon's soul (not just LTT).

 

So I don't see this as evidence that the 'living-mind' of LTT has to be there. Hawking simply knows the soul and uses the name he last knew for that soul.

Not really. Because even after Rand angrilly tells Hawkwing his name is Rand al'Thor, Hawkwing just disagrees with Rand and he even tells him so, regardless of Rand his anger at being called Lews Therin:

 

“My name is Rand al’Thor,” he snapped.

.../ /...

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself.

 

Hawkwing states it clear (and since no Hero claims otherwise and even Birgitte calls him LTT) that the man he's talking to right there and then is Lews Therin.

He's talking to the Dragon. Not the Sheepherder Rand al'Thor who has yet to even claim that he's the Dragon Reborn. Hawkwing tells Rand to his face that Rand is the one who is making the mistake.

 

Out of courtesy -and after hearing Hurin call Rand 'Lord Rand'- he asks the Dragon for permission to advance and asks "with your permission . . . [RJ alays does this when the character wanted to say something else]. . . Lord Rand"

 

So I think it's flat out wrong to think the Heroes call Rand Lews Therin there because of T'a'R. I guess It's something that was made up to fit with the theory and that sounded pretty believable.

 

 

The channeling is pretty easily explained via a fractured personality. Particularly given Rand's own insight that they were never two separate people.

That's because the weren't two men and indeed never had been. They had been one man with two distinct and living minds. Realizing that will enable Rand to live where the other one (LTT) finally does die the final death when he can make amends and sacrifice himself.

 

Rands mind has a shot at surviving this if you can see the difference between two men and one man with two living minds.

One born like any other with the soul of the Dragon at the place where the Dragon died.

The other reborn as the Dragon when that mind could re-attach to it's previous soul.

 

One living mind will die in his epic fight with the evil of the Betrayer of Hope/ the Shadow (I win again, Lews Therin!)

One living mind might live in his epic fight with the evil of Fain/ Mordeth (It's never over, Al'Thor!)

(This is one fight, I guess...but you catch my drift I think/hope)

 

"To live, you must die" - "To keep one mind alive, the other must die"

 

Rand was doing that channeling all along, he just didn't know what he was doing because he didn't yet have the practical knowledge to accompany his 'instinctual' channeling skill acquired from his LTT life through the taint. That doesn't require a separate 'living-mind' in his head, just denial that his own living-mind was the one channeling.

I can't convince you. You have to do that yourself.

All I can do is show another way of looking at events. *shrugs*

 

Hope this helped.

 

If not..just as well!

Cheers,

Mik

[Suttree]

I've always assumed LTT has been in Rand's head from the first time he seized Saidin.

Most people did (especially people named James L).

Are you kidding us?

Well, I'd say most people (and Terez) were wrong then.

Gitara calls the baby born on Dragonmount the Dragon the very moment he is born on Dragonmount. It's not like she had a choice since it was a Foretelling that cost her life. You think the Pattern itself was playing a joke on us all there?

 

Only one man actually is the Dragon; Lews Therin Telamon. I'm surprised this is news.

All we have to do is check out the Glossaries where the Dragon is explained:

 

Dragon, Prophecies of the:

Little known and seldom spoken of, the Prophecies, given in The Karaethon Cycle, foretell that the Dark One will be freed again to touch the world. And that

Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai’don, the Last Battle against the Shadow. See also Dragon, the.

 

Dragon, the:

The name by which Lews Therin Telamon was known during the War of the Shadow. In the madness that overtook all male Aes Sedai, Lews Therin killed

every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved, thus earning the name Kinslayer. See also Dragon Reborn; Dragon, Prophecies

of the.

 

Dragon Reborn:

According to prophecy and legend the Dragon will be born again at mankind’s greatest hour of need to save the world. This is not something people look

forward to, both because the Prophecies say the Dragon Reborn will bring a new Breaking to the world and because Lews Therin Kinslayer, the Dragon, is a name

to make men shudder, even more than three thousand years after his death. See also Dragon, the; Dragon, false; Dragon, Prophecies of the.

 

If that's not enough for you,...

The Heroes of the Horn that speak (as early as TGH) actually call the man in front of them 'Lews Therin'!

You meaning to tell me that's because of the Taint?...or insanity?

How about because -like Hawkwing himself tells us- "I know you, if you do not know yourself".

That means Lews Therin is there, even though Rand doesn't realize it.

 

Not just a somehow Taint induced little fleeting memory to a past life like you seem to suggest. But the person himself.

 

Actually what Gitara says is:

 

“He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!

 

The heroes recognize the soul. LTT is dead, same soul different incarnation. That is RJ's cosmology.

Q: Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

[Mik]

@Mik: being perfect is soooooo boring..

I keep forgetting to reply to this one!

 

Perfection is in the Eye of the WorldBeholder.

Perfection is the 'Heart of the World' (aka Tel'Amon)

 

Have you ever seen the movie 'the last samurai'?

Not the best of movies, but I just love it when Katsumoto searches his entire life for the perfect blossom;

 

"The perfect blossom is a rare thing. You could spend your life looking for one, and it would not be a wasted life."

 

To realise moments before he dies that;

 

"Perfect!... They.. are.. all... perfect!"

 

Briliance. That.

[Mik]

Actually what Gitara says is:

 

“He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!

And what does that change, Suttree?

From the very beginning, that baby is the Dragon. The Dragon is LTT. And you got that right; he's born again. Your point?

Maybe you should PM Dida to explain it better.

 

 

The heroes recognize the soul. LTT is dead, same soul different incarnation. That is RJ's cosmology.

Q: Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.

You specifically left out the bit in this quote that it still doesn't explain why they call the man standing before them Lews Therin, didn't you?

You didn't have to tell us that Rand is born with the Dragon Soul. It changes nothing.

Ofcourse Hawkwing recognised the Dragon Soul. And he also recognised that it was Lews Therin in front of him.

 

That's why -even after Rand angrilly tells him his name is Rand- Hawkwing says that Rand is wrong. That he doesn't know himself yet.

 

He didn't say "but you have LTT's soul and I met the dude in TAR once"...

Or "but you're going nuts and due to the Taint you'll invent another personality that you'll call LTT...so I'm gonna use this name in advance"

 

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

And this changes what?

It reinforces the fact that 'they never had been two men' and at the same time CAN both be a different living personality. *shrugs*

[FarShainMael]

@Mik: being perfect is soooooo boring..

I keep forgetting to reply to this one!

 

Perfection is in the Eye of the WorldBeholder.

Perfection is the 'Heart of the World' (aka Tel'Amon)

 

Have you ever seen the movie 'the last samurai'?

Not the best of movies, but I just love it when Katsumoto searches his entire life for the perfect blossom;

 

"The perfect blossom is a rare thing. You could spend your life looking for one, and it would not be a wasted life."

 

To realise moments before he dies that;

 

"Perfect!... They.. are.. all... perfect!"

 

Briliance. That.

 

I haven't seen that film, no. Will have to look out for it. Hope it's on DVD somewhere.

 

(Actually, I don't know what caused that moment of brain fade.. normally I check carefully before I post. My thoughts must have been elsewhere. Oh well.)

 

Edit: Billy Connelly???????????/

[Kahsm]

RE: Hawkwing

 

I don't see Rand's protest as just being about his name. When he says, "I am Rand al'Thor" so forcibly, he's also saying "I am just a sheppard, I am not the Dragon Reborn, I will not be a false dragon for Aes Sedai". It was those things Hawkwing was talking about when he said Rand did not know himself.

 

If Rand had said "I am no longer LTT, I am Rand al'Thor" I would see it the way you do. But as it is, it seems he wasn't just mad Hawkwing got his name wrong, he disliked what it meant that hawkwing called him LTT.

[RyanL24]

Hmmm.... so different people interpret this differently. Just the way RJ wanted it, fancy that.

 

 

Now why do you guys feel the need to make everybody else interpret it the same way you do?

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

Harriet: What Brandon said.

 

 

Mr. Jordan would like us to think for ourselves.

[Terez]

Hmmm.... so different people interpret this differently. Just the way RJ wanted it, fancy that.

 

 

Now why do you guys feel the need to make everybody else interpret it the same way you do?

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

Harriet: What Brandon said.

 

 

Mr. Jordan would like us to think for ourselves.

That quote is all fine and good, but the Brandon quote we just found is another matter altogether. It's easy enough to say 'I made no missteps'. Harder to demonstrate it logically.

[Suttree]

Your point?

Maybe you should PM Dida to explain it better.

 

HAHA nice one Mik...

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

 

And this changes what?

It reinforces the fact that 'they never had been two men' and at the same time CAN both be a different living personality. *shrugs*

 

It reinforces the fact that "while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul". LTT is dead, Rand is not the "same person" and there is no "living personality". The DR is Rand al Thor.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

[Terez]

It doesn't actually reinforce the fact that it's not the same person. It just says that this is what people fear - that death is the end of everything, because whoever they are reborn as will be a different person. Birgitte is proof against this, and so is Rand - just because your personality is developed differently doesn't mean you're a different person. Just because you can't remember who you were before doesn't mean it wasn't you. But the fear is understandable, and I think RJ is making a philosophical point on reincarnation - he was not really all that fond of the notion of circular time.

[Suttree]

It doesn't actually reinforce the fact that it's not the same person. It just says that this is what people fear - that death is the end of everything, because whoever they are reborn as will be a different person. Birgitte is proof against this, and so is Rand - just because your personality is developed differently doesn't mean you're a different person. Just because you can't remember who you were before doesn't mean it wasn't you. But the fear is understandable, and I think RJ is making a philosophical point on reincarnation - he was not really all that fond of the notion of circular time.

 

But the second quote says "The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul."

 

In regards to Birgitte she remembers because she resides in Tar as HotH. She did not die and become reborn in the normal sense and remember, she was ripped out. If she had she would have none of those memories. The very fact that she is losing the memories shows they are not her own and as she mentions she "has no right to them". As the pattern weaves her in to this new life the memories fade.

[Terez]

It doesn't actually reinforce the fact that it's not the same person. It just says that this is what people fear - that death is the end of everything, because whoever they are reborn as will be a different person. Birgitte is proof against this, and so is Rand - just because your personality is developed differently doesn't mean you're a different person. Just because you can't remember who you were before doesn't mean it wasn't you. But the fear is understandable, and I think RJ is making a philosophical point on reincarnation - he was not really all that fond of the notion of circular time.

 

But the second quote says "The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul."

Yes, like I said, the personality develops differently. That doesn't make it a different person. We have two elements here - nature and nurture. The nurture changes, but the nature does not - hence why Birgitte does not suffer from multiple personality syndrome. If not for the nature element, there would be no point to reincarnation at all.

 

In regards to Birgitte she remembers because she resides in Tar as HotH. She did not die and become reborn in the normal sense and remember, she was ripped out. If she had she would have none of those memories. The very fact that she is losing the memories shows they are not her own and as she mentions she "has no right to them". As the pattern weaves her in to this new life the memories fade.

All it shows is that the human brain isn't capable of retaining all that information.

[Suttree]

It doesn't actually reinforce the fact that it's not the same person. It just says that this is what people fear - that death is the end of everything, because whoever they are reborn as will be a different person. Birgitte is proof against this, and so is Rand - just because your personality is developed differently doesn't mean you're a different person. Just because you can't remember who you were before doesn't mean it wasn't you. But the fear is understandable, and I think RJ is making a philosophical point on reincarnation - he was not really all that fond of the notion of circular time.

 

But the second quote says "The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul."

Yes, like I said, the personality develops differently. That doesn't make it a different person. We have two elements here - nature and nurture. The nurture changes, but the nature does not - hence why Birgitte does not suffer from multiple personality syndrome. If not for the nature element, there would be no point to reincarnation at all.

 

In regards to Birgitte she remembers because she resides in Tar as HotH. She did not die and become reborn in the normal sense and remember, she was ripped out. If she had she would have none of those memories. The very fact that she is losing the memories shows they are not her own and as she mentions she "has no right to them". As the pattern weaves her in to this new life the memories fade.

All it shows is that the human brain isn't capable of retaining all that information.

 

I see the point you are making but Birgitte thinks otherwise. She clearly says they arent her memories, and she has no right to them, and then goes farther saying those old incarnations are not her. Guess it comes down to how people want to define what makes a "person"...to me Rand is a new different person. Same soul, new incarnation.

[Terez]

I see the point you are making but Birgitte thinks otherwise. She clearly says they arent her memories, and she has no right to them, and then goes farther saying those old incarnations are not her.

Quote?

[Suttree]

I see the point you are making but Birgitte thinks otherwise. She clearly says they arent her memories, and she has no right to them, and then goes farther saying those old incarnations are not her.

Quote?

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

 

What she could draw from her previous memories was a boon, yes, but she had no right to those memories.

 

As for the second bit I don't have any other books on me right now but she says she is not those past lives anymore on a number of occasions throughout the series. As she is woven into the pattern the memories that are not her own because this is a new incarnation fade.

She'd been forced into this life, shoving other threads aside, taking an unexpected place. The Pattern was trying to weave her in. What would happen when all the memories faded? Would she remember waking up as an adult with no history?

 

I don't think it has anything to do with her brain being unable to process, after all Mat has no issues along those lines.

 

In speaking about Rand and LTT being the same I was reminded of something Mr Ares said in a diff thread.

 

No, he isn't. They are two different incarnations from the same soul. I'd like to see a definition of "same person" that was able to explain away being born in different places, different times, having a different personality and different life experiences - in short, having all the hallmarks of being a completely different person. If Rand and LTT are the same, then I might as well say that I'm you. And if I'm you, I'm probably just saying this to annoy me. I flatly disagree with your (by which I mean my) interpretation of Veins of Gold.

[Terez]

I see the point you are making but Birgitte thinks otherwise. She clearly says they arent her memories, and she has no right to them, and then goes farther saying those old incarnations are not her.

Quote?

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

 

What she could draw from her previous memories was a boon, yes, but she had no right to those memories.

You said three things, and this is only one of them. On top of that, it's most likely Brandon's phrasing, and not necessarily in line with the cosmology - not that Brandon doesn't understand it, but because he has a different way of looking at it. I don't think RJ would have ever used the words 'had no right'. And she clearly refers to them as her memories. You said that she clearly says they aren't her memories, and that those old incarnations aren't her. There's nothing in the books like that.

 

She'd been forced into this life, shoving other threads aside, taking an unexpected place. The Pattern was trying to weave her in. What would happen when all the memories faded? Would she remember waking up as an adult with no history?

All that says is that she was forced into the Pattern instead of being born into it in the normal way. It doesn't say anything about her past lives not being her, or those memories not being hers.

 

And I'm not interested in Mr. Ares' opinion. I already explained how it's a combination of nature and nurture, and that is supported in the books.

[coolpool]

im just going to say, isn't a person, their charateristics and personality, a sum of their memories..? you are who you are because of your experiences and memories. like for example, if someone just put LLT memories into a lets say blank person.. like woulnd't they technically be LLT as he would act and respond the same the real LLT wud as thats all the copy remebers being.. He would be the same person.

 

what im saying is what do you define as a real personality and a constructed personality when that personality comes from the memories of a real person who is dead?

 

so if rand suddenlly got loads of LLT memories.. wouldn't a real personality, or personality trates leak through too, making LLT a real person in rands mind.. and because of his denil and saidin, they don't mergre but seperate into the real personality of LLT ? like if LLT was just made up to deal with rands subcousious desires.. a merging of rand and his subcousious desires wud be bad as those subcousius desires revolve around killing and just generally be physocopathic, but when LLT and rand merge in VoG, a different and non phycopathic personality leaves dragonmount, like the experience, wisdon and personality of the real LLT have become part of rand, and so if LLT wasn't real, where did all that extra zen personality come from..?

[Terez]

Just because Lews Therin's memories are real, and because the personality is different, doesn't make the voice Lews Therin. The voice is an expression of Rand's subconscious; Rand is Lews Therin, and whatever differences there were between them started disappearing when he started remembering his past life.