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Min, Alivia & Moiraine


Sharaman

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We're given some descriptions of Min's visions. This is how they go. She meets somebody and see pictures whirling around their heads. Warders and channelers have more pictures in general. There are no sounds.

Sometimes she can interpret the pictures and she offers her interpretation. Sometimes she just sees the pictures without understanding what they mean. Sometimes she misinterprets.

 

Some examples:

1) AS dead in the WT - several in TSR. We're given both descriptions and correct interpretations.

2) Fireflies in the dark surrounding Rand, Perrin. She "knows" Perrin must be there twice for Rand or something bad will happen. Vision and interpretation offered - RAFO with regards to correctness of interpretation.

3) Carlinya with a raven tattoo - Min misinterprets and assumes this means Carlinya will become damane - she actually dies, killed in TAR, (there's a RAFO attached so there may be some mystery).

4) Sheriam with a flash of silver+ blue colours - Min has no clue but she's seeing Sheriam's execution.

5) Logain's glory - we don't know if Min's called it correctly but she describes it

6) Borderlander rulers at ToM - we don't know if Min called it right about their fates.

7) The AS swearing oaths to Rand - Min says they will all serve him in their fashion because he holds them in his hand. She's right though two of them were BA.

 

 

Now there are several other interesting Min visions pertaining to Rand

1) Callandor held aloft in a hand of black onyx - Min just describes it but doesn't try to interpret

2) Min thinks once of how she had seen a vision of Rand that couldn't come true because it involved a woman who was dead (probably Moiraine).

3) Alivia will somehow help Rand die.

 

 

Any clues what she actually saw in 2 and 3? Especially 3.

 

About2: What was Moiraine doing in Min's vision? This could actually be anything recognisably involving Moiraine. In some fashion, Moi plays a role in Rand's future. Min dismisses it because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

 

But 3 is very hard.

What does help somebody die mean in concrete visual terms?

How did Alivia "help Rand die"? Why does Rand not ask her to describe it exactly (at least not onscreen)?

It is a very peculiar turn of phrase: Alivia is not directly killing Rand.

Since Min doesn't hear speech, it can't be as simple as Rand saying "Oi Alivia, give me that sword, I want to off myself".

Does Min see Rand mortally wounded or in great distress and Alivia somehow puts him out of his misery?

Does Alivia act as Rand's second in a suicide ceremony? As in Rand throws himself upon a sword held by Alivia.

Or does Alivia actively aid an attack on Rand but not kill him herself? Such as Rand is attacked and Alivia restrains him before he can defend himself.

 

Any guesses?

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7) The AS swearing oaths to Rand - Min says they will all serve him in their fashion because he holds them in his hand. She's right though two of them were BA.

 

Which five were those exactly? Alanna, Elza, Kiruna, Sarene, and Merise? I'm sure only one of them is Black (Elza). Though MAYBE Alanna is also Black. Or do I remember it wrong? WoT wikia wasn't clear about which five women it exactly were.

 

3) Alivia will somehow help Rand die.

 

I had a theory Alivia turns out to be a Darkfriend (maybe forced by her former sul'dam), and steals Callandor and gives it to Demandred, who kills Rand then. It would also explain the hand made of onyx (which was what I started the theory about).

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1) Callandor held aloft in a hand of black onyx - Min just describes it but doesn't try to interpret

2) Min thinks once of how she had seen a vision of Rand that couldn't come true because it involved a woman who was dead (probably Moiraine).

3) Alivia will somehow help Rand die.

 

1 - I'm reminded of the Bloodrings, which are made of black stone. I'm already wondering if this was what 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' was all about, making a few assumptions about that black stone. If so, does the viewing mean Rand will be wearing one of those rings when he uses Callandor?

 

2 - Hmm.. there were in fact two women who were believed dead.. and the other one was Lanfear/Cyndane/Mierin.. who of course was instrumental in constructing the bore in the first place; and, also, see ToM Epilogue!

 

3 - Alivia is almost certainly not what she appears to be. I've wondered before: how did she throw off the effects of 400 years of being damane? Was she ever a damane in the first place?

 

But 'help Rand die' suggests that Rand wants / needs to die.. perhaps because it's the only way he can directly confront the DO on Its home turf (so to speak!) Possibly - going back to 1 - Alivia tells him how the Bloodrings work. (Kudos to Terez for suggesting that one.)

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1) Callandor held aloft in a hand of black onyx - Min just describes it but doesn't try to interpret

2) Min thinks once of how she had seen a vision of Rand that couldn't come true because it involved a woman who was dead (probably Moiraine).

3) Alivia will somehow help Rand die.

 

1 - I'm reminded of the Bloodrings, which are made of black stone. I'm already wondering if this was what 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' was all about, making a few assumptions about that black stone. If so, does the viewing mean Rand will be wearing one of those rings when he uses Callandor?

 

2 - Hmm.. there were in fact two women who were believed dead.. and the other one was Lanfear/Cyndane/Mierin.. who of course was instrumental in constructing the bore in the first place; and, also, see ToM Epilogue!

 

3 - Alivia is almost certainly not what she appears to be. I've wondered before: how did she throw off the effects of 400 years of being damane? Was she ever a damane in the first place?

 

But 'help Rand die' suggests that Rand wants / needs to die.. perhaps because it's the only way he can directly confront the DO on Its home turf (so to speak!) Possibly - going back to 1 - Alivia tells him how the Bloodrings work.

 

ToM Epilogue could be a trap, so I think Rand has to watch out (just because he always has to be careful. I don't think it is a trap myself).

 

And about Alivia... Maybe she was a Darkfriend, and her Sul'dam too. See my thread about how she is going to help Rand die for more information.

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As for Alivia helping Rand die, I always imagined it to be that the two of them (at least) would hatch a plan where it appeared he died (maybe it is tied in with the figure that Logain steps over). I could see the actual 'killing' of him happening in front of a lot of people, with Alivia apparently being the one to kill him. Thus, she help him convince everyone that he had died.

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But he wouldn't really die. I think then Min wouldn't have phrased it this way. And in my theory, well, at least many of the main characters could be present, plus an army. Maybe Logain takes over then, because he also thinks Rand is dead.

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@Leyrann the second captured BA was sworn later (Min didn't see her). So yes, only one BA in the group she saw.

@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

About the bloodrings - they're odd so Min would probably have described them - "You're wearing a funny ring".

@lemonpastie Min is interpreting a vision so, if she sees Alivia apparently killing Rand, she would say " She kills you" not "Helps you die".

 

That is a strange phrase - what sort of vision would Min interpret that way?

Obviously Rand "dies"/ is "dying" and Alivia is visible doing something to him/in the vicinity "enabling" his death. What?

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@Leyrann the second captured BA was sworn later (Min didn't see her). So yes, only one BA in the group she saw.

@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

About the bloodrings - they're odd so Min would probably have described them - "You're wearing a funny ring".

@lemonpastie Min is interpreting a vision so, if she sees Alivia apparently killing Rand, she would say " She kills you" not "Helps you die".

 

That is a strange phrase - what sort of vision would Min interpret that way?

Obviously Rand "dies"/ is "dying" and Alivia is visible doing something to him/in the vicinity "enabling" his death. What?

 

My idea is that she is a DF, and gives Callandor to Demandred at the slopes of SG.

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@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

 

I'm not sure she'd have to recognize her. I thought her visions were like dreams and sometimes she just knew what they meant. not that she particularly understood the images. And if not, it's entirely possible the image actually as of original lanfear, since it's still lanfear just in a new body. But I still think it would actually be something that means that person, not an actual picture of the person.

 

My money is on Lanfear. A trap makes too little sense in this context. I have no doubt Lanfear is being tortured, and there's a bit of "Narrative Debt" as they say for that, "No one has spent so long in the shadow they cannot return the light" line.

 

Yeah yeah, Ingtar, but he never actively seemed DF in the story, and only really supposedly released Fain. And Verin never really was a darkfriend, she was just undercover. It's gotta be one of the Chosen IMO.

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@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

 

I'm not sure she'd have to recognize her. I thought her visions were like dreams and sometimes she just knew what they meant. not that she particularly understood the images. And if not, it's entirely possible the image actually as of original lanfear, since it's still lanfear just in a new body. But I still think it would actually be something that means that person, not an actual picture of the person.

 

My money is on Lanfear. A trap makes too little sense in this context. I have no doubt Lanfear is being tortured, and there's a bit of "Narrative Debt" as they say for that, "No one has spent so long in the shadow they cannot return the light" line.

 

Yeah yeah, Ingtar, but he never actively seemed DF in the story, and only really supposedly released Fain. And Verin never really was a darkfriend, she was just undercover. It's gotta be one of the Chosen IMO.

 

I think you're right. But don't forget Moridin can kill her in a second if he wants. In my theory (sorry if I promote it too much), Moridin turns back to the Light, then Cyndane says she also wants to turn back to the light.

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@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

 

Recall that this is one of Min's viewings that we don't see on-screen. In ACoS35, she is thinking about Rand and the LB: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? " We don't know what she actually viewed, or even if she saw a woman at all; it could have been one of her symbolic viewings.

 

About the bloodrings - they're odd so Min would probably have described them - "You're wearing a funny ring".

 

Again, was her viewing symbolic or literal? We don't know. But on thinking about it.. I think i'll go with the ter'angreal prosthesis idea.

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Big problem with Alivia being a DF is that DFs now can barely look at Rand. Would be quite odd (to say the least) for alivia to be able to stick around Rand without showing the slightest reaction.

 

There have been theories Rand was told by Verin's letter, or that only "weak" DF can't look in his eyes. I myself don't know if I believe that, but have YOU seen Alivia in Towers of Midnight?

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Big problem with Alivia being a DF is that DFs now can barely look at Rand. Would be quite odd (to say the least) for alivia to be able to stick around Rand without showing the slightest reaction.

 

There have been theories Rand was told by Verin's letter, or that only "weak" DF can't look in his eyes. I myself don't know if I believe that, but have YOU seen Alivia in Towers of Midnight?

 

Verins letter could have been an explanation, if we had not seen Torkumen go mad and his wife comitting suicide, just by having Rand channeling nearby.

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Big problem with Alivia being a DF is that DFs now can barely look at Rand. Would be quite odd (to say the least) for alivia to be able to stick around Rand without showing the slightest reaction.

 

There have been theories Rand was told by Verin's letter, or that only "weak" DF can't look in his eyes. I myself don't know if I believe that, but have YOU seen Alivia in Towers of Midnight?

 

Verins letter could have been an explanation, if we had not seen Torkumen go mad and his wife comitting suicide, just by having Rand channeling nearby.

 

They couldn't see that part.

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Big problem with Alivia being a DF is that DFs now can barely look at Rand. Would be quite odd (to say the least) for alivia to be able to stick around Rand without showing the slightest reaction.

 

There have been theories Rand was told by Verin's letter, or that only "weak" DF can't look in his eyes. I myself don't know if I believe that, but have YOU seen Alivia in Towers of Midnight?

 

Verins letter could have been an explanation, if we had not seen Torkumen go mad and his wife comitting suicide, just by having Rand channeling nearby.

 

They couldn't see that part.

 

Which is kinda the point. From TOm we have one exam+le of DFs not being able to look rand in the eyes, and one example of Rand just channeling nearby driving DFs insane. Which re-he-eally makes it somewhat difficult for a DF to hide in his entourage.

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Big problem with Alivia being a DF is that DFs now can barely look at Rand. Would be quite odd (to say the least) for alivia to be able to stick around Rand without showing the slightest reaction.

 

There have been theories Rand was told by Verin's letter, or that only "weak" DF can't look in his eyes. I myself don't know if I believe that, but have YOU seen Alivia in Towers of Midnight?

 

Verins letter could have been an explanation, if we had not seen Torkumen go mad and his wife comitting suicide, just by having Rand channeling nearby.

 

They couldn't see that part.

 

Which is kinda the point. From TOm we have one exam+le of DFs not being able to look rand in the eyes, and one example of Rand just channeling nearby driving DFs insane. Which re-he-eally makes it somewhat difficult for a DF to hide in his entourage.

 

He was channeling A LOT at Maradon though. Seems possible that merely opening gateways isn't enough to "set off" his radiant darkfriend poison.

 

I just thought of this now so it's not a fully-formed thought, but maybe the whole tearing out the eyes thing is not related to his "stare down" power. Maybe his radiant DF poison was type of ward LTT knew that possibly disorients or demoralizes shadowspawn (and has that effect on DFs). Kidna like a Jedi battle meditation type thing =)

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@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

 

Recall that this is one of Min's viewings that we don't see on-screen. In ACoS35, she is thinking about Rand and the LB: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? " We don't know what she actually viewed, or even if she saw a woman at all; it could have been one of her symbolic viewings.

 

A couple of points:

 

1) Does Min know that Lanfear is supposedly dead? I don't remember how she learns of Moiraine's death and what exactly she knows.

 

2) If it was Lanfear, why would Min not be startled or confused by a viewing that one of the Forsaken would help Rand succeed?

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Recall that this is one of Min's viewings that we don't see on-screen. In ACoS35, she is thinking about Rand and the LB: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? " We don't know what she actually viewed, or even if she saw a woman at all; it could have been one of her symbolic viewings.

 

I believe it is worth mentioning that this viewing seems to be fail-proof, so it really can't be (or rather, shouldn't be) the viewing of Moiraine that Min believes failed.

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Interestiung thought about the AoL woman but I think then, Min would have told Rand "There's something related to a woman dead and gone that is important to your future".

Even if the vision is symbolic, (perhaps Moiraine's stone- house sigil/ Lanfear's sigil?), she interpreted it as a failed vision because it involved somebody she "knew" to be dead as doing something active (implying they were alive) in Rand's future. Min would "know" both Lanfear and Cyndane were dead if she knew either was dead. There were hundreds of witnesses of the incident apart from Rand himself.

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@FSM - Yes, it could be Cyndane except that Min wouldn't have recognised Cyndane unless she somehow reverts to looking like Lanfear. Hence, I think it's probably Moiraine she is talking of.

 

Recall that this is one of Min's viewings that we don't see on-screen. In ACoS35, she is thinking about Rand and the LB: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? " We don't know what she actually viewed, or even if she saw a woman at all; it could have been one of her symbolic viewings.

 

A couple of points:

 

1) Does Min know that Lanfear is supposedly dead? I don't remember how she learns of Moiraine's death and what exactly she knows.

 

2) If it was Lanfear, why would Min not be startled or confused by a viewing that one of the Forsaken would help Rand succeed?

 

1. As Sharaman says, Min must know all about what happened at the docks.

 

2. We don't know if she was startled or confused when she had the Viewing, we only see her remembering its import - though if she had Viewed Lanfear, I agree she might have thought to herself 'even if it's Lanfear..'.

 

Interesting thought about the AoL woman but I think then, Min would have told Rand "There's something related to a woman dead and gone that is important to your future".

 

She did think 'What use to tell him..'

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I always thought that the failure due to the 'woman dead and gone' referred back to the EotW firefly viewing. That Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene, Nyneave and Thom were all necessary for success. It is the only time Min sees them all together (actually, Nyneave is still missing from the whole group at the time of viewing). Remember that with just Rand and Perrin, the lights seem to hold their own against the darkness, but what if they cannot win without all of them there?

 

Remember the quote is:

 

"What good to tell him that he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone"

 

It suggests a course of action is unlikely to succeed without a woman believed dead, who has been seen by Min in the presence of Rand. I think this rules out Lanfear (not sure)

 

And for Alivia, Rand would hang out in TAR if he were killed...

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