The White Tower is opressive!

[Hybrid]

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

So whoever holds the bond can control(AS need to use spirit) but it seems as if channeling strength plays a role in being able to resist?

I can't find any official quote on this, but I've seen a lot of people toss around the claim that Rand was able to escape the Compulsion because he'd seized saidin when Alanna tried to Compel him; if he hadn't, the Compulsion would have worked.

 

That's always been my view. We know that men holding saidin are immune to Compulsion, so it's fairly logical to assume that the same holds true of the compulsion aspect of the Warder bond.

[Suttree]

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

So whoever holds the bond can control(AS need to use spirit) but it seems as if channeling strength plays a role in being able to resist?

I can't find any official quote on this, but I've seen a lot of people toss around the claim that Rand was able to escape the Compulsion because he'd seized saidin when Alanna tried to Compel him; if he hadn't, the Compulsion would have worked.

 

That's always been my view. We know that men holding saidin are immune to Compulsion, so it's fairly logical to assume that the same holds true of the compulsion aspect of the Warder bond.

 

Wonder if it works the same for a woman holding Saidar when an Ashaman tries to compel or does strength also play a role?

[Zentari]

Ok...sorry. So you were saying there maybe a few warders that don't know about it? You think all the warders don't talk? That makes what you are saying even less likely. Something of a personnel nature like that would probably not be addressed in mass to trainees. Not sure why you think something that has barely been touched upon in the story would warrant it's own full disclosure scene?

I'll put it bluntly : All I'm saying is that we have not seen a single instance of said...capabilities being mentioned to the one who is bonded.Not even once for something you say would probably be mentioned in mass.Heck, it's more likely that it's skipped altogether , as I've said, given how AS operate than it being mentioned in mass and somehow not even seeing,or hearing, an instance of it.

 

The tittle is "The white tower is oppresive".What I put forth is an example of their despicable behavior.

[Suttree]

Ok...sorry. So you were saying there maybe a few warders that don't know about it? You think all the warders don't talk? That makes what you are saying even less likely. Something of a personnel nature like that would probably not be addressed in mass to trainees. Not sure why you think something that has barely been touched upon in the story would warrant it's own full disclosure scene?

I'll put it bluntly : All I'm saying is that we have not seen a single instance of said...capabilities being mentioned to the one who is bonded.Not even once for something you say would probably be mentioned in mass.Heck, it's more likely that it's skipped altogether , as I've said, given how AS operate than it being mentioned in mass and somehow not even seeing,or hearing, an instance of it.

 

The tittle is "The white tower is oppresive".What I put forth is an example of their despicable behavior.

 

Zentari it just takes one warder to blow the secret wide open. It if was some despicable underhanded secret they are trying to keep quiet as you say, there would have been some mass warder/trainee revolt at some point since that bond was discovered. How many bonding scenes have we actually seen? Don't think you can really draw any definitive conclusions from that. If it is something that the majority of people know there would be no reason to talk about it before bonding. On the other hand in the scene we do have with a warder, Lan isn't upset that it exists, he's upset that Moiraine thinks about using it. Based on this it is highly unlikely there is some minority of warders out there that don't know. We see how much they interact with each other, warders really don't spend time with anyone besides their own kind. Keeping that type of secret would be neigh impossible in those circumstances.

[Hybrid]

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

So whoever holds the bond can control(AS need to use spirit) but it seems as if channeling strength plays a role in being able to resist?

I can't find any official quote on this, but I've seen a lot of people toss around the claim that Rand was able to escape the Compulsion because he'd seized saidin when Alanna tried to Compel him; if he hadn't, the Compulsion would have worked.

 

That's always been my view. We know that men holding saidin are immune to Compulsion, so it's fairly logical to assume that the same holds true of the compulsion aspect of the Warder bond.

 

Wonder if it works the same for a woman holding Saidar when an Ashaman tries to compel or does strength also play a role?

 

Does saidar provide the same immunity to Compulsion? I'd thought it didn't.

 

Strength playing a role makes sense too, especially if it's a watered down version of Compulsion.

[sleepinghour]

Does saidar provide the same immunity to Compulsion? I'd thought it didn't.

Holding saidar doesn't protect against regular Compulsion, no. Elayne was holding saidar when Moghedien used Compulsion on her and Nynaeve in TSR.

 

It's possible that it would protect against Asha'man Warder bond compulsion, but the only case we've seen of that so far was Logain and Toveine in TPoD. Toveine was first shielded by Logain, then bonded by him and ordered not touch the Source without his permission. So even if holding saidar would work against Logain's commands, he's already prevented her from doing so.

 

There's also a scene in LoC where Rand asks Egwene to tell him where Elayne is, and Egwene is able to resist his ta'veren powers by embracing saidar:

 

He leaned forward intently. “I know she’s with Aes Sedai. You told me those Aes Sedai support me, or might. Are they afraid of me? I will take oath to stay away from them, if they are. Egwene, I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne. She has claim to both; Cairhien will accept her as quickly as Andor does. I need her, Egwene.”

 

Egwene opened her mouth—and realized that she was about to tell him all she knew about Salidar. Barely in time she clamped her teeth shut so hard her jaws ached, and opened herself to saidar. The sweet feel of life, so strong it overwhelmed everything else, seemed to help; slowly the urge to talk began to ebb.

[DemandredFO]

I think she can resist because of her will and I don't mean that in a good way.

[Zentari]

Zentari it just takes one warder to blow the secret wide open. It if was some despicable underhanded secret they are trying to keep quiet as you say, there would have been some mass warder/trainee revolt at some point since that bond was discovered. How many bonding scenes have we actually seen? Don't think you can really draw any definitive conclusions from that. If it is something that the majority of people know there would be no reason to talk about it before bonding. On the other hand in the scene we do have with a warder, Lan isn't upset that it exists, he's upset that Moiraine thinks about using it. Based on this it is highly unlikely there is some minority of warders out there that don't know. We see how much they interact with each other, warders really don't spend time with anyone besides their own kind. Keeping that type of secret would be neigh impossible in those circumstances.

Doesn't have to be a secret .They can simply avoid and/or be elusive on the subject until after the bond, which is damn convenient for them (while we have not seen much about the Younglings, it was never ONCE mentioned to them. ) and while definitive conclusions can't be drawn since we don't have enough data, some conclusions can especially since they match the AS behavior to a T.

 

As for revolt ? Against AS ? Come now, that's a poor argument and you know it.

[Suttree]

As for revolt ? Against AS ? Come now, that's a poor argument and you know it.

 

 

So we have already gone from "not all warders know" to well maybe they don't tell people before they are bonded? Again with it not being mentioned(younglings/during bonding scenes) the simplest reason for that, especially in light of Lan's scene, is that it is already common knowledge.

 

As for the above, obvs not an armed fight type revolt, I meant a revolt in refusing to train/become a warder based on AS trying to keep the compulsion aspect secret. Warders, younglings they all train together. You better believe they work with them on every aspect of the bond, and there would be no reason why on man would keep it from the next.

[Durinax]

As for revolt ? Against AS ? Come now, that's a poor argument and you know it.

 

 

So we have already gone from "not all warders know" to well maybe they don't tell people before they are bonded? Again with it not being mentioned(younglings/during bonding scenes) the simplest reason for that, especially in light of Lan's scene, is that it is already common knowledge.

 

As for the above, obvs not an armed fight type revolt, I meant a revolt in refusing to train/become a warder based on AS trying to keep the compulsion aspect secret. Warders, younglings they all train together. You better believe they work with them on every aspect of the bond, and there would be no reason why on man would keep it from the next.

could cossibly compulse them to not talk about it :p

[sleepinghour]

So we have already gone from "not all warders know" to well maybe they don't tell people before they are bonded? Again with it not being mentioned(younglings/during bonding scenes) the simplest reason for that, especially in light of Lan's scene, is that it is already common knowledge.

To quote the glossary: "What the Aes Sedai gain from the bonding is a closely held secret."

 

It's not surprising that Lan would know about it after 20 years of being a Warder and knowing other seasoned Warders like Elyas, but he clearly wasn't told in New Spring and neither was anyone else we've seen bonded, or Mat for that matter when various Aes Sedai wanted to bond him in LoC.

 

It doesn't even have to be for the purpose of deceiving the Warder--what if a prospective Warder changes his mind after learning about the Compulsion aspect and tells others? It would be a major PR disaster for the Aes Sedai if word got out that they are able to Compel Warders since it sounds an awful lot like using the Power as weapon. So I think it's more likely that it IS kept a secret, at least until the Warder is already bonded.

[Kahsm]

Right, because A) Aes Sedai have sooooo much trust with refular folk to lose

and B) people don't already think Warders do everying they're told. and they know signing up is a choice

[Zentari]

As for revolt ? Against AS ? Come now, that's a poor argument and you know it.

 

 

So we have already gone from "not all warders know" to well maybe they don't tell people before they are bonded? Again with it not being mentioned(younglings/during bonding scenes) the simplest reason for that, especially in light of Lan's scene, is that it is already common knowledge.

 

As for the above, obvs not an armed fight type revolt, I meant a revolt in refusing to train/become a warder based on AS trying to keep the compulsion aspect secret. Warders, younglings they all train together. You better believe they work with them on every aspect of the bond, and there would be no reason why on man would keep it from the next.

First of all, from the beginning that's what I was implying.Second of all, the absence of evidence of it being mentioned is a point FOR my argument, not against it ; the simplest reason for something not being said "on-screen" is because it wasn't,instead of being totally common knowledge "off-screen" and yet somehow never actually told to someone in all those books.

 

Lan's scene is by no means illustrating on the issue.Someone told him, doesn't mean he got that info before the bond (he didn't) nor does it mean that they discuss it with the class, so to speak.

 

The whole point also fits standard AS logic ,as I have mentioned before ,a point that you can't exactly rebuke: as long as they don't have to outright lie about something they take no pains to reveal it either.

 

Again disobedience towards AS ? Not happening.Even the Younglings who had their eyes opened dodged the issue rather than confront it.

 

Right, because A) Aes Sedai have sooooo much trust with refular folk to lose

and B) people don't already think Warders do everying they're told. and they know signing up is a choice

Extremely sarcastic but totally wrong.Do you think people's reactions would be they same if they knew that Warders always agree with AS because they have this neat little mind-trick ?

 

What about the nobles ? Would they think " Good thing it only happens to the warders " or " ...Hey , there's an awful lot of AS advisers that get their way".Even if the WT could explain the situation ("Not compulsion/only works with bonds") the backlash would be huge.

[Suttree]

Do you think people's reactions would be they same if they knew that Warders always agree with AS because they have this neat little mind-trick ?

What about the nobles ? Would they think " Good thing it only happens to the warders " or " ...Hey , there's an awful lot of AS advisers that get their way".Even if the WT could explain the situation ("Not compulsion/only works with bonds") the backlash would be huge.

 

But that isn't reality at all. It says flat out that they rarely use it in modern times it and it is looked down upon by many AS...you still haven't begun to explain how that aspect of the bond wouldn't get out?

 

Lan knows of it, not all warders

 

You were only implying "were not sure if they ask before bonding?" when you started off your question with the above?

 

To quote the glossary: "What the Aes Sedai gain from the bonding is a closely held secret."

 

Sorry Sleeping not following you. Are you saying that refers to the spirit weave compulsion aspect of the bond? AS have many secrets from the general populace. I doubt most people even outside of warders and younglings(when I said common knowledge I mean amongst those groups obvs) know about the most basic aspects of the bond.

[Kahsm]

I would be surprised if the general public didn't already think Aes Sedai did that. I mean they swear binding oaths to not lie and still few if any trust a word they say (justifiably). I just don't think a revelation that they compel their warders would do much if anything for their rep.

[Zentari]

Do you think people's reactions would be they same if they knew that Warders always agree with AS because they have this neat little mind-trick ?

What about the nobles ? Would they think " Good thing it only happens to the warders " or " ...Hey , there's an awful lot of AS advisers that get their way".Even if the WT could explain the situation ("Not compulsion/only works with bonds") the backlash would be huge.

 

But that isn't reality at all. It says flat out that they rarely use it in modern times it and it is looked down upon by many AS...you still haven't begun to explain how that aspect of the bond wouldn't get out?

So what if it's looked down on ? The average peasant isn't gonna be too much thrilled about AS mindtricks and everyone else will get mighty suspicious of the AS, even more than they already are.As for it not getting out, would the average farmer walk up to a Warder and ask : " What exactly is the deal with that bond ?" Assuming that what you said without evidence , it being widespread already between the groups (warders and trainees), is true would they share it with a random stranger ? Or would they keep it under, as AS business ?

 

 

 

 

 

Lan knows of it, not all warders

 

You were only implying "were not sure if they ask before bonding?" when you started off your question with the above?

Quit dancing around the issue and answer my points : do you have ANY sort of evidence of it being widespread and easily shared knowledge ? Of it actually being mentioned before the bonding takes place or any instance of that knowledge ACTUALLY being shared with someone ?

 

If not then the simplest explanation is that it isn't shared,at least not freely.

[Suttree]

Do you think people's reactions would be they same if they knew that Warders always agree with AS because they have this neat little mind-trick ?

What about the nobles ? Would they think " Good thing it only happens to the warders " or " ...Hey , there's an awful lot of AS advisers that get their way".Even if the WT could explain the situation ("Not compulsion/only works with bonds") the backlash would be huge.

 

But that isn't reality at all. It says flat out that they rarely use it in modern times it and it is looked down upon by many AS...you still haven't begun to explain how that aspect of the bond wouldn't get out?

So what if it's looked down on ? The average peasant isn't gonna be too much thrilled about AS mindtricks and everyone else will get mighty suspicious of the AS, even more than they already are.As for it not getting out, would the average farmer walk up to a Warder and ask : " What exactly is the deal with that bond ?" Assuming that what you said without evidence , it being widespread already between the groups (warders and trainees), is true would they share it with a random stranger ? Or would they keep it under, as AS business ?

 

 

 

 

 

Lan knows of it, not all warders

 

You were only implying "were not sure if they ask before bonding?" when you started off your question with the above?

Quit dancing around the issue and answer my points : do you have ANY sort of evidence of it being widespread and easily shared knowledge ? Of it actually being mentioned before the bonding takes place or any instance of that knowledge ACTUALLY being shared with someone ?

 

If not then the simplest explanation is that it isn't shared,at least not freely.

 

Why would they share it with a stranger? We are talking about it being common knowledge among warders/younglings. You are the one that keeps dancing around and introducing new conditions. The only evidence we have for or against is Lan knowing. You were the one challenging my claim when you said "Lan knows, other warders don't", the onus is on you to come up with evidence. You have not been able to explain why one warder would know but others wouldn't. You havent explained how the info wouldn't get out. You havent explained anything but your own opinion which is unsupported by anything in the text.

[Kahsm]

Simply put, having a warder pissed with you seems rather pointless, you can't compel him to do everything and have an effective warder... And Elyas ran off, he's the only discontent warder we know of afaik. All the others seem perfectly happy to keep their oath.

[sleepinghour]

To quote the glossary: "What the Aes Sedai gain from the bonding is a closely held secret."

 

Sorry Sleeping not following you. Are you saying that refers to the spirit weave compulsion aspect of the bond? AS have many secrets from the general populace. I doubt most people even outside of warders and younglings(when I said common knowledge I mean amongst those groups obvs) know about the most basic aspects of the bond.

No, I didn't mean that it specifically referred to the Compulsion aspect. There are other unsavory things about the Warder bond, like the Aes Sedai's ability to drain her Warder's strength to the point of death (posted the quote about that below in case anyone's going "huh?" now) and what happens to the Warder if the Aes Sedai dies.

 

The glossary quote supports the claim that Aes Sedai are actively trying to keep outsiders from knowing too much about the bond, in which case it would be risky to inform people who aren't bonded yet. I'm not suggesting that Aes Sedai are necessarily out to dupe unsuspecting men into agreeing without knowing exactly what they're getting into, but I can definitely see them deciding it necessary to withhold any information that could possibly tarnish their reputation if it got out. The more people that know a secret, the more likely it is to be compromised.

 

Even Accepted are mostly kept in the dark about how the Warder bond works--only full Aes Sedai are taught the weave (Elayne learned it by spying on Aes Sedai), Nynaeve didn't know about the Warder death rage/depression until Lan told her in ACoS, and Elayne had to ask Vandene in WH how to mask the bond and whether Tower Law forbade multiple people from bonding the same man.

 

Q: Is the gift the Aes Sedai get from the bonding the ability to take or drain energy from their warder for their own use? I believe this was stated in New Spring at the end, but I didn't know if it was a literal statement or figurative.

 

RJ: That is one of the gifts. She can draw as much strength as she needs -- as a matter of fact, she could take it all. In other words, she could kill him.

[Suttree]

No, I didn't mean that it specifically referred to the Compulsion aspect. There are other unsavory things about the Warder bond, like the Aes Sedai's ability to drain her Warder's strength to the point of death (posted the quote about that below in case anyone's going "huh?" now)

 

Q: Is the gift the Aes Sedai get from the bonding the ability to take or drain energy from their warder for their own use? I believe this was stated in New Spring at the end, but I didn't know if it was a literal statement or figurative.

 

RJ: That is one of the gifts. She can draw as much strength as she needs -- as a matter of fact, she could take it all. In other words, she could kill him.

 

Wonder if that drawing of strength can go both ways or is it only a general increase in stamina/strength that warders get?

 

Btw, have we seen any of the AS get "warder" benefits from being bonded by the Ashaman or does that not happen with their version?

[MasterAblar]

No, I didn't mean that it specifically referred to the Compulsion aspect. There are other unsavory things about the Warder bond, like the Aes Sedai's ability to drain her Warder's strength to the point of death (posted the quote about that below in case anyone's going "huh?" now)

 

Q: Is the gift the Aes Sedai get from the bonding the ability to take or drain energy from their warder for their own use? I believe this was stated in New Spring at the end, but I didn't know if it was a literal statement or figurative.

 

RJ: That is one of the gifts. She can draw as much strength as she needs -- as a matter of fact, she could take it all. In other words, she could kill him.

 

Wonder if that drawing of strength can go both ways or is it only a general increase in stamina/strength that warders get?

 

Btw, have we seen any of the AS get "warder" benefits from being bonded by the Ashaman or does that not happen with their version?

 

Toveine never mentions it. As for your first question, I would say no it, only the aes sedai get that ability.

[Zentari]

 

Why would they share it with a stranger? We are talking about it being common knowledge among warders/younglings.

The passage you quoted was referring to what would happen if the spirit weave usage went public.

 

You are the one that keeps dancing around and introducing new conditions. The only evidence we have for or against is Lan knowing. You were the one challenging my claim when you said "Lan knows, other warders don't", the onus is on you to come up with evidence. You have not been able to explain why one warder would know but others wouldn't. You havent explained how the info wouldn't get out. You havent explained anything but your own opinion which is unsupported by anything in the text.

Two facts:

1)We have never seen the spirit weave being mentioned to anyone prior their bonding or even it being discussed between warders ,much more the younglings.

2)AS are extremely secretive and have been known to withhold the truth or dance around it ("The wheel weaves as the wheel weaves").

 

The simplest explanation given these two is that they don't go around mentioning it (at least it's full...capabilities), something that would make sense given Lan's reaction, instead of being widespread knowledge in those groups that somehow slips past the radar for all those books.Heck, if it IS known, how come those young men never once mention it ? One would assume that they would have some slight reservations or fears about it.

[Suttree]

Two facts:

1)We have never seen the spirit weave being mentioned to anyone prior their bonding or even it being discussed between warders ,much more the younglings.

 

Could you please provide examples of all these conversations we have between warders discussing bonding where it isn't mentioned?

 

2)AS are extremely secretive and have been known to withhold the truth or dance around it ("The wheel weaves as the wheel weaves").

 

Not usually with their warders, who can sense their very emotions.

 

So yeah two statements of yours that really have zero bearing on the situation, and still no textual evidence. Again something like that being held as a secret would provoke a very negative reaction when found out. I ask you yet again, how would the word possibly not spread? I'm sure Elyas isn't the only warder relationship to go sour. If it was all under wraps it would just take one DF or digruntled warder to blow the cover.

 

The simplest explanation given these two is that they don't go around mentioning it (at least it's full...capabilities), something that would make sense given Lan's reaction,

 

TGH

“Compelled,” he breathed softly, angrily. “Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that.”

 

How does Lan's reaction possibly indicate anything about them not mentioning the compelling aspect or it's full capabilities? You are seriously grasping at this point.

 

Heck, if it IS known, how come those young men never once mention it ? One would assume that they would have some slight reservations or fears about it.

 

Again please provide evidence of Younglings sitting around discussing the bond and what they will receive from it, while not mentioning the compulsion aspect. IIRC there are no conversations of this nature period so you can hardly use its absence as proof.

[Zentari]

Could you please provide examples of all these conversations we have between warders discussing bonding where it isn't mentioned?

Nope.Because said absence is actually part of my point.Shocking, no ?

Which is kinda funny; if it was ,as you said, known between the younglings where are all those references ? Could it be because they don't talk about bonding all that often ?

 

2)AS are extremely secretive and have been known to withhold the truth or dance around it ("The wheel weaves as the wheel weaves").

 

Not usually with their warders, who can sense their very emotions.

Point missed, by a long shot.

 

So yeah two statements of yours that really have zero bearing on the situation, and still no textual evidence. Again something like that being held as a secret would provoke a very negative reaction when found out. I ask you yet again, how would the word possibly not spread? I'm sure Elyas isn't the only warder relationship to go sour. If it was all under wraps it would just take one DF or digruntled warder to blow the cover.

There are two options here; If it isn't a secret , then the public already knows (because as you said, it would have been extremely difficult to keep quiet about, though not as much as you think it would), which is curious since no-one has shown such knowledge or negative outcry from it.

 

Given how these things haven't happened , the other option is it being spread on a need to know basis.

 

 

 

How does Lan's reaction possibly indicate anything about them not mentioning the compelling aspect or it's full capabilities? You are seriously grasping at this point.

How ,in the nine hells , does an angry remark by someone who has been warder for years and doesn't appreciate that push in the least constitute as an indication of such knowledge being widespread in any way ? It doesn't , and neither does it give us an indication of WHEN or HOW he learned it.

 

 

Again please provide evidence of Younglings sitting around discussing the bond and what they will receive from it, while not mentioning the compulsion aspect. IIRC there are no conversations of this nature period so you can hardly use its absence as proof.

Actually , I can.It shows how the whole bonding aspect is largely in the dark,unlike what you said, which also means that the compulsion effect is also in the dark.

[AquilaInfernus]

@AegisArcana,

 

The unsupervised learning of abilities by untrained channelers is often considered highly dangerous (Hell experimentation is responsible for a lot of burn outs, deaths etc). Recall that 3/4 of all sparkers die without being guided, probably a solid reason for all but kidnapping potential initiates. Also, regardless of ability they are put out for refusing the Accepted test 3 times, or failing at all.

 

Neither is it reasonable to expect that an organisation with such unfettered and publicly known power as the Aes Sedai wield would tempt them building a sphere of influence beyond what a typical nation holds. Think even now the influence of multi-billionaires on global affairs.

 

For those discussing warders;Lan knew yes, but Moiraine was also quite free with her wishes with him, until the Cairheinin docks episode anyway. We know she is meant to be the embodiment of Aes Sedai. Secondly, there is no evidence either way for the disclosure or otherwise of compulsion aspects of the bond to warders. No doubt much is held back, but then, this is the case for Accepted as well.

 

Warders watch over their AS, are described as half tame wolves etc. My reading of the text suggests that until recently (i.e. Rand's bonding), potential warders knew what they were signing up for, the need for compulsion is few and far between since these men willingly sign up for it.

 

Oh, and the closely held secret is nothing... AS get nothing from the bond! but who would ever believe that?!