The White Tower is opressive!

[sleepinghour]

No there is a diff, Ashaman can force obedience(the "extra bit") while the AS version is more persuasion.

The difference is that with the "extra bit," the Compulsion is automatic and requires no other action from the bond holder than to speak the command. Aes Sedai on the other hand have to use a weave of Spirit on the bond (as Myrelle did with Lan in LoC) to force obedience. But the Compulsion itself is just as strong.

[Suttree]

No there is a diff, Ashaman can force obedience(the "extra bit") while the AS version is more persuasion.

The difference is that with the "extra bit," the Compulsion is automatic and requires no other action from the bond holder than to speak the command. Aes Sedai on the other hand have to use a weave of Spirit on the bond (as Myrelle did with Lan in LoC) to force obedience. But the Compulsion itself is just as strong.

 

But that isn't always true though, ie Rand and Alanna...I could be wrong but that's why I thought it wasn't total compulsion like the Asha bond...

[MasterAblar]

No there is a diff, Ashaman can force obedience(the "extra bit") while the AS version is more persuasion.

The difference is that with the "extra bit," the Compulsion is automatic and requires no other action from the bond holder than to speak the command. Aes Sedai on the other hand have to use a weave of Spirit on the bond (as Myrelle did with Lan in LoC) to force obedience. But the Compulsion itself is just as strong.

 

But that isn't always true though, ie Rand and Alanna...I could be wrong but that's why I thought it wasn't total compulsion like the Asha bond...

 

Judging from the reaction of the other aes sedai she told, it seems it was unprecedented. It's probably something to do with Rand being much not stronger, or simply him being a channeler, or him holding the power when she tried to do it.

[Durinax]

No there is a diff, Ashaman can force obedience(the "extra bit") while the AS version is more persuasion.

The difference is that with the "extra bit," the Compulsion is automatic and requires no other action from the bond holder than to speak the command. Aes Sedai on the other hand have to use a weave of Spirit on the bond (as Myrelle did with Lan in LoC) to force obedience. But the Compulsion itself is just as strong.

 

But that isn't always true though, ie Rand and Alanna...I could be wrong but that's why I thought it wasn't total compulsion like the Asha bond...

I thought it was due to the nature of saidin that allowed him to resist, since he was in a constant fight with saidin so he is less likely to give in to the compulsion, which also means that saidar users are more susceptable to compulsion due to the nature of saidar and the giving in to use it. althoguh this is all my personal opinion but thought I should sahre

[randsc]

The ability to compel obedience is ABSOLUTELY a feature of the AS warder bond. That is why the others are shocked when Alanna cannot do so. Indeed, Cads' reaction makes it clear that she thinks compelling a Warder would be really not big deal.

 

The AS who showed up at the Black Tower should have been killed. This is simply another example of Rand's misplaced chivalry causing problems.

 

The bond the Asha'man discovered was the Warder bond. Nothing "sketchy" about it, except what is sketchy about the AS Warder bond.

[Suttree]

The ability to compel obedience is ABSOLUTELY a feature of the AS warder bond. That is why the others are shocked when Alanna cannot do so. Indeed, Cads' reaction makes it clear that she thinks compelling a Warder would be really not big deal.

 

The AS who showed up at the Black Tower should have been killed. This is simply another example of Rand's misplaced chivalry causing problems.

 

The bond the Asha'man discovered was the Warder bond. Nothing "sketchy" about it, except what is sketchy about the AS Warder bond.

 

Yeah I found this...

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

So whoever holds the bond can control(AS need to use spirit) but it seems as if channeling strength plays a role in being able to resist?

[randsc]

It appears that that is true (as I recall, Alanna weeps something like, "He's so strong!")

 

It is clear, though, that compelled obedience is part of the Warder bond, the AS know it, the AS are trained to take advantage of it, and they don't think it any big deal to do so.

 

Which makes complaints about the Asha'man's bonding, in defense of the AS, a bit rich.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

though the AS holding the bond may be "in charge," i don't think AS control warders like puppets. i don't get that from the books, or from anything i've ever seen quoted.

 

my boss is in charge of me, but he can't really make me do anything. he can influence my actions, and he has a lot of leverage, but that's not the same as compulsion.

[Suttree]

It appears that that is true (as I recall, Alanna weeps something like, "He's so strong!")

 

It is clear, though, that compelled obedience is part of the Warder bond, the AS know it, the AS are trained to take advantage of it, and they don't think it any big deal to do so.

 

Which makes complaints about the Asha'man's bonding, in defense of the AS, a bit rich.

 

Yeah, the whole "Logain enslaved" all those AS argument doesn't really hold. Only diff I can see with the two is proximity. If AS need spirit to compel their warder they would have to be close whereas Ashaman can do it with a thought?

[randsc]

Re-read the section where Alanna is called to task for failing to bring Rand under control. It is absolutely clear that the AS do in fact control Warders like puppets when they feel the need.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

'k, i'm not ususally a quote monkey, but does someone have quotes to support the AS compelling warders thing? cause i seriously do not recall anything like that.

[sleepinghour]

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

 

So whoever holds the bond can control(AS need to use spirit) but it seems as if channeling strength plays a role in being able to resist?

I can't find any official quote on this, but I've seen a lot of people toss around the claim that Rand was able to escape the Compulsion because he'd seized saidin when Alanna tried to Compel him; if he hadn't, the Compulsion would have worked.

[randsc]

It appears that that is true (as I recall, Alanna weeps something like, "He's so strong!")

 

It is clear, though, that compelled obedience is part of the Warder bond, the AS know it, the AS are trained to take advantage of it, and they don't think it any big deal to do so.

 

Which makes complaints about the Asha'man's bonding, in defense of the AS, a bit rich.

 

Yeah, the whole "Logain enslaved" all those AS argument doesn't really hold. Only diff I can see with the two is proximity. If AS need spirit to compel their warder they would have to be close whereas Ashaman can do it with a thought?

 

Actually, they can do it without a thought. It appears to be an intrinsic feature of the bond. Which there is no evidence they sought to add. They discovered this by accident, after all.

[randsc]

Path of Daggers, Chapter 12.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i only have the audio CD's, could you post it please?

 

being called to task for failing to bring rand under control would not be an issue if the AS warder-bond included actual compulsion.

 

if puppetry were the norm, there'd be no chastising her for failure, because it would clearly obvious that there was something abnormal about the bond.

 

i think alanna was perhaps expected to exert serious pressure on rand and bring him to heel, so to speak, but not to put a hand up his puppet hole, pardon the expression, and compell his every action. i don't think that's how it works. compulsion is different from warder bonding.

 

is there a mod around at this time on a sunday? cause i seem to recall a mod settling this exact same point not too very long ago.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

[Suttree]

i only have the audio CD's, could you post it please?

 

being called to task for failing to bring rand under control would not be an issue if the AS warder-bond included actual compulsion.

 

if puppetry were the norm, there'd be no chastising her for failure, because it would clearly obvious that there was something abnormal about the bond.

 

i think alanna was perhaps expected to exert serious pressure on rand and bring him to heel, so to speak, but not to put a hand up his puppet hole, pardon the expression, and compell his every action. i don't think that's how it works. compulsion is different from warder bonding.

 

is there a mod around at this time on a sunday? cause i seem to recall a mod settling this exact same point not too very long ago.

 

As Sleeping pointed out earlier in the thread there was "Aes Sedai on the other hand have to use a weave of Spirit on the bond (as Myrelle did with Lan in LoC) to force obedience."

 

Believe it is the scene where she forces Lan to come to her in the clearing, when Egwene stumbles upon their little side camp.

[randsc]

I don't have the books with me. The line is something like, "Why didn't you use the bond to compel him. That is nothing, compared with the other" The "other" being the forced bonding.

 

Again, it is absolutely clear in the text that the other Aes Sedai expect that Alanna will be able to force Rand to do as she wishes. Not pressure, force.

[randsc]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

 

This is one of those cases where i am at work, and don't have the book.

 

If you have the audio, you have the ability to find it yourself. It is there. AS can and do compel their Warders to obey.

[XXX]

I look forward to the end of amol. There's going to be a lot of bitter tears and disappointment. Oh it will be glorious

 

The death of Egwene and the accession of Logain as the head of all channelers will be surely glorious.

 

So in a topic about oppression you want to give power to man who ENSLAVED 50 women, vs the one person in the tower who wants to work with other channelers rather then try force them to do want the tower wants.

 

 

You rather the women be killed as they were trying to destroy the BT?..I am in favor of completely massacring them but the Dragon showed compassion.

[sleepinghour]

'k, i'm not ususally a quote monkey, but does someone have quotes to support the AS compelling warders thing? cause i seriously do not recall anything like that.

From RJ:

 

A very strong male channeler bonded to a very weak Aes Sedai could not use the bond to control her. Whoever holds the bond is in charge, though she might have a hard time controlling him.

----

It [releasing a Warder from the bond] has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. [...] Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really)

Alanna told Kiruna in LoC about her failed attempt to Compel Rand, and the others were incredulous that it didn't work. In the same book, Myrelle uses the bond to Compel Lan to come to her.

 

"If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in that commanding voice, "why, by the Light most holy, have you not used the bond to bend him to your will? Compared to the other, that is only slapping his wrist."

Alanna still had small control of her emotions. Color actually flooded her cheeks, partly in anger by the way her eyes flashed, and assuredly partly in shame. "Has no one told you?" she asked, too brightly. "I suppose no one wants to think of it. I certainly do not." Faeldrin and Seonid looked at the floor, and they were not the only ones. "I tried to compel him moments after I bonded him," Alanna continued as if noticing none of it. "Have you ever attempted to uproot an oak tree with your bare hands, Kiruna? It was much the same."

Kiruna’s only reaction was a slow widening of her eyes, a slow deep breath. Bera actually muttered, "That’s impossible. Impossible." [...]

"No one ever before has bonded a man who can channel," Alanna said when her mirth subsided. "Perhaps that has something to do with it."

The horse stopped a good fifty paces from her. "You shouldn’t have sent Nuhel and Croi out to find me," the unseen rider called in a rough voice. "I almost killed them before I saw who they were. Avar, you might as well come out from behind that tree." Off to the right, the night seemed to move; Avar wore his cloak too, and he would not have expected to be seen.

"This is madness," Nisao muttered.

"Be quiet," Myrelle hissed. In a louder voice, she called, "Come to me." The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result. "Come to me."

This time the horse came forward, and the man swung down to stride the last paces, a tall man, moonshadows making his angular face seemed carved of stone.

[randsc]

Thank you, sleepinghour.

 

Cindy, please note that Alanna even uses the word "compel," which would be rather a charged word among chanellers.

 

The Myrelle quote, which I had forgotten, seems to indicate that not only do the AS give themselves this ability with the bond, but that they conceal that fact from the Warders.

 

Despicable people.

[Entreri]

They are "half-trained" girls.

 

Verus AoL, somewhat akin to a 21st century doctor vs. someone from medieval times.

 

Hopefully the Asha'man do not develop the same kind of arrogance.

 

 

Certainly neither the Wise Ones or the Wind Finders have it.

[Elan Tedronai]

I look forward to the end of amol. There's going to be a lot of bitter tears and disappointment. Oh it will be glorious

 

The death of Egwene and the accession of Logain as the head of all channelers will be surely glorious.

 

So in a topic about oppression you want to give power to man who ENSLAVED 50 women, vs the one person in the tower who wants to work with other channelers rather then try force them to do want the tower wants.

 

Haggis there really is not much of a point. When those two are posting at each other it really is best just to step away and not feed the trolls.

 

 

logain is actually one of my fave characters in the book.

 

the difference between me and mr x-rated is that i usually give credit where it is due even to characters i dont particularly care for.

 

so please try again

[Elan Tedronai]

randsc, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this is one of those cases where you're being deliberately. . . provocative. . . and i'll give us all a rest.

 

 

it's only bad when AS compels warders using their bonds. But when logain does it is a okay. what alanna did to rand is no different what logain and co did. randsc is just dilute version of XXX47. Anti aes sedai, anti egwene and anti anyone who does not follow the lord dragon willy nilly.