Siuan's First Ta'Veren...

[Dastion]

Something occurred to me during my most recent read-through that, I tried using search to see if it's been discussed before, but all I saw was some other theory about Dulain in the BUT thread, I haven't seen Siuan's Talent discussed.

 

In Book #1 Siuan mentions that she can see Ta'Veren, indicating this is a talent she knew she had. So this made me wonder how did she discover this talent?

 

As I've continued to read through the series I came up with a theory, I believe the Ta'Veren might have been the border lord in Murandy, Dulain, who the tower had identified as having the potential to unify all of Murandy. Extrapolating something like that because a Lord is a minor Ta'verenseems to fit into the Tower's tendency to assume they're always right or how things should go (i.e. Moraine's interpretations of how Rand should fullfill prophecies), and it seems like a very RJ-like twist to make the Ta'Veren's only real purpose to cause the incident between Siuan and Gareth, knowledge of which greatly effected how the two dealt with one another after Siuan's stilling.

 

I'm not sure how much there is to discuss, but I thought it an interesting hole in the story to ponder about. If not him, then who else?

[mb]

Besides the series' 3 taveren, there are only 2 other taveren:

-Artur Hawkwing

-Mabriam en Shereed

 

My guess would be that Siuan figgured it out when she seen Rand.

[Kahsm]

Besides the series' 3 taveren, there are only 2 other taveren:

-Artur Hawkwing

-Mabriam en Shereed

 

My guess would be that Siuan figgured it out when she seen Rand.

 

That seems like a silly assertion given that people can be ta'veren-ified and un-ta'veren-ified on the patterns whim for any length of time with any strength. Unless RJ ruled it out...

 

I just reread the first two books (well, listened), and Siuan does seem very certain about her talent. So it seems possible to me.

[mb]

Siuan had some degree of time to think about it before she had her meeting with Moiraine.

Generally; the more a person things about something, the more certain the person becomes about the something.

 

Had there been any more taveren, I imagine the series or at least the guide would have listed them.

 

I have not heard of a taveren becoming non-taveren and still be alive.

[Mashiara Sedai]

I've always wondered about this too. I was under the assumption that ta'veren are very rare. Siuan is only a little past 40 years old. How is it that a ta'veren would have been born with those 40 years, and then 3 now? It seems like too many in too short a time. But, your theory about the Murandian lord seems likely. However, if he *was* ta'veren, how could he have been killed by a farmer so easily? The pattern should have preserved him, not let him die.

 

Also, Siuan tells Moiraine about it, like Moiraine didn't know Siuan could see ta'veren. If she knew when they were younger, wouldn't she have told Moiraine about it sooner? Does that imply that it was recent--since she and Moiraine hadn't been seeing a lot of each other--that she discovered this Talent? Maybe there is some sort of test with the Power to see if you can see ta'veren...

 

I think if she just discovered it after seeing Rand, she would have said something like, "Apparently, I can see ta'veren," instead of, "It is one of my Talent, seeing ta'veren. A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren..." (TGH P.68) If the Talent is rarer than ta'veren and we know of three Channelers who can see ta'veren (Siuan, Logain, Nicola), then maybe there was another ta'veren close by in this time frame.

 

In all likelihood, RJ just included it without really thinking it through. It was early enough in the series that some of these plots might not have been fully formed.

 

~Mashiara

[mb]

There might have been a chance that there was a book mentioning the Talent and a chance that Siuan read that part of the book during her studies.

If so, that might have added to her certainty in the scene.

[Dastion]

Before I came to the part in the book about Dulain I too thought that maybe there was just some sort of test they administer on girls that finds out if it's a talent.

 

I believe there is a phrasing in the books which refers to the pattern weaving events around them, 'For a Time", and I do know that no one is 'born' a Ta'Veren.

 

Her phrasing definitely implies that she knew of the Talent, and if Moiraine wasn't aware of the Talent then that implies she discovered it after the two were raised, which would fit in with the events surrounding Dulain.

 

Being a Ta'Veren simply means that the pattern weaves itself around you and moves events so that you do what needs done. So what if his goal was to be recognized by the tower, and thus bring Gareth and Siuan together over him? It doesn't matter if he dies after that, because the pattern has used him for it's purpose in fact, maybe he died because he was confident in his Ta'veren shiftings of the pattern. Artur Hawkwing died after fullfilling his purpose, after all. As it is believed Rand will too.

[Majsju]

 

 

Had there been any more taveren, I imagine the series or at least the guide would have listed them.

 

 

 

Why would they? Hawkwing and Shereed are named because there are reasons in the story to do so. Do we get a list of every single Hero bound to the Horn of Valere? A list of every single Aes Sedai with special talents? A list of Blademasters, even one limited to those alive today? What makes you thing ta'veren would be treated any differently? What makes you think RJ would waste time he could have spent working on important things on making up random names for a silly little list that fills no function whatsoever?

[herid]

I've always wondered about this too. I was under the assumption that ta'veren are very rare. Siuan is only a little past 40 years old. How is it that a ta'veren would have been born with those 40 years, and then 3 now? It seems like too many in too short a time. But, your theory about the Murandian lord seems likely. However, if he *was* ta'veren, how could he have been killed by a farmer so easily? The pattern should have preserved him, not let him die.

 

Also, Siuan tells Moiraine about it, like Moiraine didn't know Siuan could see ta'veren. If she knew when they were younger, wouldn't she have told Moiraine about it sooner? Does that imply that it was recent--since she and Moiraine hadn't been seeing a lot of each other--that she discovered this Talent? Maybe there is some sort of test with the Power to see if you can see ta'veren...

 

I think if she just discovered it after seeing Rand, she would have said something like, "Apparently, I can see ta'veren," instead of, "It is one of my Talent, seeing ta'veren. A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren..." (TGH P.68) If the Talent is rarer than ta'veren and we know of three Channelers who can see ta'veren (Siuan, Logain, Nicola), then maybe there was another ta'veren close by in this time frame.

 

In all likelihood, RJ just included it without really thinking it through. It was early enough in the series that some of these plots might not have been fully formed.

 

~Mashiara

Exactly. This is the most likely and the most reasonable explanation. Or as Majsju says RJ may have simply decided that it was not necessary to supply a list of ta'veren Siuan may have seen if they were not going to play any role in the story. One can only do so much worldbuilding in the books and it's impossible and actually quite unnecessary to cover all the angles. It's completely obvious from that scene that Siuan didn't just discover her talent of seeing ta'veren when she first saw Rand but rather had known about it before. The OP is quite right that this means that she had seen ta'veren before. But there is really no reason to suspect Dulain in particular more than any other character mentioned in passing in the books. If somebody wants to believe that Dulain was a ta'veren to make the story more rounded - they are welcome to it. That changes nothing and has no effect on the plot. But in all likelihood RJ didn't mean him to be a ta'veren. He didn't include any other ta'veren because they are not relevant to the story. They existed but only offscreen. As I said, with such a huge world things like this are bound to happen. For example, there was a recent thread about male channelers among Tinkers and what Tinkers do about them. This is never discussed in the books just because not everything can be discussed and explained and this particular issue will apparently not play any role. so why spend time on it and bog the story down - WoT has more than enough of things that slow the story down already.

 

 

 

 

Had there been any more taveren, I imagine the series or at least the guide would have listed them.

 

 

 

Why would they? Hawkwing and Shereed are named because there are reasons in the story to do so. Do we get a list of every single Hero bound to the Horn of Valere? A list of every single Aes Sedai with special talents? A list of Blademasters, even one limited to those alive today? What makes you thing ta'veren would be treated any differently? What makes you think RJ would waste time he could have spent working on important things on making up random names for a silly little list that fills no function whatsoever?

+1 on all of that.

[Ashlyn]

Before I came to the part in the book about Dulain I too thought that maybe there was just some sort of test they administer on girls that finds out if it's a talent.

 

I believe there is a phrasing in the books which refers to the pattern weaving events around them, 'For a Time", and I do know that no one is 'born' a Ta'Veren.

 

Her phrasing definitely implies that she knew of the Talent, and if Moiraine wasn't aware of the Talent then that implies she discovered it after the two were raised, which would fit in with the events surrounding Dulain.

 

Being a Ta'Veren simply means that the pattern weaves itself around you and moves events so that you do what needs done. So what if his goal was to be recognized by the tower, and thus bring Gareth and Siuan together over him? It doesn't matter if he dies after that, because the pattern has used him for it's purpose in fact, maybe he died because he was confident in his Ta'veren shiftings of the pattern. Artur Hawkwing died after fullfilling his purpose, after all. As it is believed Rand will too.

 

Remember that there are degrees of ta'veren - Rand is exceptionally strong, but there is more than enough in the story to imply that a person can be a minor ta'veren as well. Siun or Logain mentioned that Rand shone like the sun, so it is likely that a minor ta'veren would only have a faint glow.

[Luckers]

From the way they are spoken of in the series its fairly clear that there are a lot more ta'veren then we all perhaps realise. Note the relative lack of surprise when characters learn the boys are ta'veren--Faile, for instance, with Perrin. Oh, she's like 'ta'veren eh? How fascinating'. There's no 'ZOMG TA'VEREN???? YOU'RE KIDDING ME!!! THIS IS A ONCE IN A THOUSAND YEAR EVENT, HOW FRACKIN' AWESOME!!!'

 

So rare, yes, but rare in the sense that there might be one active ta'veren at any one time--or even one active every ten years or so. One in all the world is still pretty rare, but not so rare that Siuan couldn't have encountered one previously. Of course these ta'veren would on average be no where near as strong as any of the boys. It is made very clear that the strength of their ta'maral'ailen IS a once in a thousand years kind of thing, and ta'veren of that strength cause such a swirl that they do get noted and remembered (these are people like Hawkwing and Mabriem en Shereed).

[Sharaman]

I can't remember, do the Seanchan "believe" in ta'veren? I think not, from Thom's chat with Tuon in KoD when Mat meets Talmanes.

In that case, they're not apparently that well known on Seanchan - odd because the royal family's ancestor was one of the most famous Ta'veren of all time.

Also, on the subject of Suian's perceptions, she sees Rand in ToM and thinks of the "false dragons" plural she has seen.

Logain is one; to the best of my knowledge she never met Taim or the unnamed bloke in Haddon Mirk (?).

So who are the other false dragons she met?

[Elvira_Sedai]

Suian as Amyrlin had an opportunity to learn arcane chronicles of the WT . May be there she had read about this particular talent - seeing Ta'verens .

[mb]

Other taveren could serve at least this purpose:: show how their respective areas were affected.

 

And taveren I imagine would be much fewer than the other mentioned groups.

 

 

Still think that Rand was Siuan's first taveren.

 

Unless either author contradicted that.

[Dastion]

As I said, there really isn't much to discuss because there is little evidence. The way Siuan admits to the talent definitely implies she knew of it, and if Ta'Veren were so rare, then I feel people wouldn't be so blasé about the Talent of seeing them. As Luckers said, people tend to take someone being Ta'Veren rather lightly, as if it just means that they are someone important and that things will tend to go their way.

 

That's why I came up with the theory of Dulain being a minor Ta'Veren. If he was a known Ta'Veren, and was working to unite Murandy, then it is entirely possible that the Aes Sedai assumed he had a good chance to succeed, thus leading to her confrontion with Gareth. Dulain died shortly after, and yet without him I can't help but feel that the interactions between the two years later might have been different. The incident was obviously at the front of Siuan's mind during their first meeting after her stilling, which could have caused the defiance in her eyes that drew Gareth's attention. And where would the tower be without these two? Would Egwene be in the position she is now?

 

I just thought it an interesting idle thought and one I had not seen discussed before. I've read through the series so many times and I'm surprised it took me until this read through (my 7th) to notice it.

[Sid]

As I said, there really isn't much to discuss because there is little evidence. The way Siuan admits to the talent definitely implies she knew of it, and if Ta'Veren were so rare, then I feel people wouldn't be so blasé about the Talent of seeing them. As Luckers said, people tend to take someone being Ta'Veren rather lightly, as if it just means that they are someone important and that things will tend to go their way.

 

That's why I came up with the theory of Dulain being a minor Ta'Veren. If he was a known Ta'Veren, and was working to unite Murandy, then it is entirely possible that the Aes Sedai assumed he had a good chance to succeed, thus leading to her confrontion with Gareth. Dulain died shortly after, and yet without him I can't help but feel that the interactions between the two years later might have been different. The incident was obviously at the front of Siuan's mind during their first meeting after her stilling, which could have caused the defiance in her eyes that drew Gareth's attention. And where would the tower be without these two? Would Egwene be in the position she is now?

 

I just thought it an interesting idle thought and one I had not seen discussed before. I've read through the series so many times and I'm surprised it took me until this read through (my 7th) to notice it.

Your idea came to me as soon as I saw the thread title. Dulain may have been Ta'veren for the sole reason of getting Siuan to make enough of an impression on Gareth Bryne years ago, so that when he needed to be in Salidar, he would follow Siuan and was there for Egwene. It would seem that she'd probably never have cared so much had she not seen this Dulain with her Talent.

 

Good thought!