Egwene Poll

[Suttree]

She hasn't read the books, she's spent a good portion of the last while as a prisoner. She doesn't yet know that things hat were considered a truism for the past thousand years are possibly untrue, yet she's still a leader and has decisions to make. Rand purposely deprived her of information she needed to even form doubt. If anyone is possibly acting poorly it's the guy manipulating someone who likely would have helped had he just explained what he knew.

 

This is one of the more accurate posts I have read on DM in some time. I would like to point out though that we don't know why Rand manipulated her, when all is said and done he may very well have had important reasons to do so.

 

The bottom line is Egwene is one of the few AS that consistently has inner thoughts that reflect on how to serve the greater good and reform the WT structure. In doing so she will be forced to make many difficult decisions, but we all must look at what her motivating factors are. The constant accusations of her being power hungry, as bad as Elaida, or having a secret mandate for world domination underneath the false front of fighting the shadow are as tiresome as they are false.

In her mind "greater good" almost always means "increase of the power of the White Tower, and by extension, my own". The rest of the world barely appears in her thoughts, it's all about the White Tower and its influence.

 

If you have proof of Egwene having inner thoughts that show she doesn't really care about the greater good of the world and only wants to increase her own personnel power I would welcome it.

 

In fact in ToM she argues against attempting an increase in power for the WT and claims she will not allow the AS to become tyrants.

 

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer" Egwene said softly.....If we try to hold on too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title".

[David Selig]

I am not saying she's trying to become a tyrant or that working to increase the influence of the Tower is a bad thing per se (that's her main job after all). My point is that the good of the world, or anything outside the Tower, is always a distant second in her mind. Her reforms of the tower may end up be for the good of the world, but that's not her main goal by any means.

 

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

Another example - she was absolutely determined not to let the Tower conflict have any kind of bloodshed between Aes Sedai, yet had no problems putting Tar Valon under siege and blockading its harbors with the goal to starve its population which would've caused way more casualties due to starvation than a quick strike against the White tower. But the vast majority of the Tar valon citizens aren't Aes Sedai, so they don't really matter in her mind.

[Suttree]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as with the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

[Durinax]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as referenced by the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

yes but a few scattered sisters are barely anything, they where mostly monarch advisors at any rate. news of major trolloc offensives should have spurned her to do something other than leave those who where already up there stay there. (although she may have sent some AS to rescue some people we dont know (personnally I feel if she did this it was to save the other AS others where just collateral)

[Apple13]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as referenced by the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

yes but a few scattered sisters are barely anything, they where mostly monarch advisors at any rate. news of major trolloc offensives should have spurned her to do something other than leave those who where already up there stay there. (although she may have sent some AS to rescue some people we dont know (personnally I feel if she did this it was to save the other AS others where just collateral)

Yeah, but like you said, since Aes Sedai aren't really practised at fighting Shadowspawn (except for the Green) it wouldn't be a good idea for her to send up too many sisters of the other Ajahs over there, right? They'll probably just become more casualties. The White Tower is not so much of a military organization im my mind. Personally, I think that she would have been foolish if she had just dispatched sisters left and right to go and solve problems they wouldn't really know how to solve. It's better for her to first find out more information, and then use that to figure out what needs to be done and when. I think she could have sent a few Yellow sisters over to help the wounded, but from the reports we've seen, it's more likely the Yellows would just die along with the other soldiers.

I think she would do better to wait until Tarmon Gaidon is there, and then go out in full force, with a more solid plan in mind. It would definitely be better than to lose the sisters before the Last Battle even started, due to inadequate information and poor decisions.

[SuperFade]

^The Last Battle has already started. The fact that the Borderlands are on the verge of collapse should be testament enough to that. Not sending Sisters to aid the soldiers there is truly bewildering considering that the Borderlands venerate Aes Sedai more than any other nation in the Westlands. Leaving them to be overrun is a poor way of repaying that.

[randsc]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as with the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

 

 

Oh, come on. You're engaging in hyperbole nearly as bad as that you claim to be combating.

 

1. She hardly "seized control" of the blue network. She demanded some reports outside of normal protocol. By that standard, I routinely "seize control" of my city's fire department.

 

2. The AS with Ituralde were Rand's, almost certainly. Or, they just happened to be in Saldaea. They certainly weren't sent by Egwene.

 

You KNOW that Egwene should have done more on hearing that the Borderlands were overrun. She didn't even, for just one example, delay her politicking for long enough to send messages via gateway to the southern rulers.

 

I don't actually think that she written as behaving badly in this instance. But I don't think that she was written as having thought of everything and responded appropriately, either. This was an author moving on quickly to the next action in the plot.

 

But as written: Of course she should have done more.

[randsc]

^The Last Battle has already started. The fact that the Borderlands are on the verge of collapse should be testament enough to that. Not sending Sisters to aid the soldiers there is truly bewildering considering that the Borderlands venerate Aes Sedai more than any other nation in the Westlands. Leaving them to be overrun is a poor way of repaying that.

 

Time is a wheel. Malkier all over again.

[David Selig]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as referenced by the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

yes but a few scattered sisters are barely anything, they where mostly monarch advisors at any rate. news of major trolloc offensives should have spurned her to do something other than leave those who where already up there stay there. (although she may have sent some AS to rescue some people we dont know (personnally I feel if she did this it was to save the other AS others where just collateral)

Yeah, but like you said, since Aes Sedai aren't really practised at fighting Shadowspawn (except for the Green) it wouldn't be a good idea for her to send up too many sisters of the other Ajahs over there, right? They'll probably just become more casualties. The White Tower is not so much of a military organization im my mind. Personally, I think that she would have been foolish if she had just dispatched sisters left and right to go and solve problems they wouldn't really know how to solve. It's better for her to first find out more information, and then use that to figure out what needs to be done and when. I think she could have sent a few Yellow sisters over to help the wounded, but from the reports we've seen, it's more likely the Yellows would just die along with the other soldiers.

I think she would do better to wait until Tarmon Gaidon is there, and then go out in full force, with a more solid plan in mind. It would definitely be better than to lose the sisters before the Last Battle even started, due to inadequate information and poor decisions.

As I said, the l;east she could do is sent a few sisters to the major cities to evacuate the women and children. Practically no risk involved and it could save many thousands of lives easily. Given that the Borderlands have always supported the Tower and even still pay tribute it, not doing at least that is a major betrayal.

[randsc]

And a few Yellows to heal the men now fighting and dying to protect the sleeping, decadent South.

[Apple13]

^The Last Battle has already started. The fact that the Borderlands are on the verge of collapse should be testament enough to that. Not sending Sisters to aid the soldiers there is truly bewildering considering that the Borderlands venerate Aes Sedai more than any other nation in the Westlands. Leaving them to be overrun is a poor way of repaying that.

 

I think the Last Battle is getting there, but it hasn't started as of yet. Otherwise we would have all the main characters gathering up their armies and going off to fight it already. Not to mention that Rand and Tuon haven't yet reached an agreement on settling their disputes. And I don't believe the Borderlander army is defeated yet - They were just waiting with their rulers to meet with Rand, and they'll be back home soon to fight. I still think it would be better for Egwene to think about what she needs to do, instead of sending sisters out in the middle of Trollocs to just get slaughtered.

[randsc]

Think about how bizarre is is that the Borderlands pay tribute to the Tower.

 

Here are people who bear the entire cost, in blood and treasure, of defending all the human occupied lands south of the blight. And yet they send more treasure (and blood, for that matter: The Borderlands are certainly disproportionately represented among the Warders) to a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and don't even receive healers in return.

 

Those silk dresses the AS wear could have been arms, armor and fortifications devoted to the defense of the Borderlands, and by extension, all the human lands.

[Strykr017]

I dislike her BECAUSE I believe that she's a poorly written character. She's just too good at everything despite having very little experience. She's somehow able to rediscover all sorts of weaves. The Wise Ones think that she's awesome. She's able to outsmart Aes Sedai who have been playing political games for hundreds of years. Every Ajah wanted her to join their ranks. It's just too much.

 

I mean, jeeze. The way that she's written would enable to her to become a blademaster in a month or less should she ever so much as pick up a knife to cut her steak.

[David Selig]

Think about how bizarre is is that the Borderlands pay tribute to the Tower.

 

Here are people who bear the entire cost, in blood and treasure, of defending all the human occupied lands south of the blight. And yet they send more treasure (and blood, for that matter: The Borderlands are certainly disproportionately represented among the Warders) to a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and don't even receive healers in return.

 

Those silk dresses the AS wear could have been arms, armor and fortifications devoted to the defense of the Borderlands, and by extension, all the human lands.

This is why I've always found the extreme respect the Borderlanders have for the Aes Sedai baffling. They should be really angry at the Tower for completely neglecting them. The Aes Sedai aren't sending sisters to fight the Trollocs, they aren't sending even monetary aid or supplies (it's the other way round), they aren't using their political influence to convince Andor, Cairhien or Arad Doman to send troops and supplies to help the Borderlanders. When a major invasion was coming to Shienar, and it was known for months in advance, there wasn't a single Aes Sedai in Shienar to help except Moiraine, who was there for a different reason. Yet the average Borderlander is highly respectful of the Aes Sedai. How come?

[randsc]

Because they're hidebound traditionalists. Even the Borderlanders have their failings.

[Suttree]

1. She hardly "seized control" of the blue network. She demanded some reports outside of normal protocol. By that standard, I routinely "seize control" of my city's fire department.

 

Either way she can't be said to have done nothing. The first step in fighting a war is gathering intelligence.

 

ToM

Silviana nodded curtly. She didn't state the obvious-that the Blue network was the Blue Ajahs, not to be preempted by the Amrylin. Well, the Last Battle was at hand. Some concessions had to be made.

 

Time is a wheel. Malkier all over again.

 

Which of course had nothing to do with the AS. A DF plot caused the fall and per NS without travelling AS could not reach Malkier in large enough numbers to help.

 

This is why I've always found the extreme respect the Borderlanders have for the Aes Sedai baffling. They should be really angry at the Tower for completely neglecting them. The Aes Sedai aren't sending sisters to fight the Trollocs

 

Once again every Borderland nation has multiple AS stationed in them. How do we know they don't engage in the fighting? In the trolloc wars squadrons were made up with AS attached. They certainly can't be blamed for this when said nations rulers are ignoring their own countries need.

[randsc]

Because the Borderlands ought to be where the majority of the Tower's strength is stationed, not a scattered few. The Yellows should have almost no one in the Tower itself at any given time, except for those engaged in whatever the Yellow equivalent of EMS con ed is. The utterly pathetic "Battle Ajah" ought to be where there are, you know, battles. And all of them, when offered tribute by the Borderlands, ought to immediately refuse it, on the self-evident grounds that the Borderlands will put the treasure to better use.

[randsc]

 

 

Time is a wheel. Malkier all over again.

 

Which of course had nothing to do with the AS. A DF plot caused the fall and per NS without travelling AS could not reach Malkier in large enough numbers to help.

 

 

Of course you might have thought the Witches would have learned the obvious lesson of that experience, and been sure to station adequate numbers in the Borderlands. As far as we know, until Suian's procession arrived, Moraine was the only AS in Sheinar.

 

Which is actually the best defense for Egwene's conduct. Suian did it too. Suian knew the last battle was coming, and let the Witches hang out in the Pale Piller like pampered privileged punks. So Egwene was just proceeding from precedent.

[Suttree]

Suian knew the last battle was coming, and let the Witches hang out in the Pale Piller like pampered privileged punks. So Egwene was just proceeding from precedent.

 

Oooohhhh shiny alliteration, very sharp Randsc

[XXX]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as with the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

 

Ituralde had no AS with him when he was sent to Maradon..so any AS he had with him came with the Ashaman sent by Rand. Most likely the bonded AS. How can Egwene claim credit for that? She did not even know the Trollocs had attacked until after the fact.

[Kahsm]

Because the Borderlands ought to be where the majority of the Tower's strength is stationed, not a scattered few. The Yellows should have almost no one in the Tower itself at any given time, except for those engaged in whatever the Yellow equivalent of EMS con ed is. The utterly pathetic "Battle Ajah" ought to be where there are, you know, battles. And all of them, when offered tribute by the Borderlands, ought to immediately refuse it, on the self-evident grounds that the Borderlands will put the treasure to better use.

 

So blame Elaida for starting the WT civil war that tied their hands.

 

And any charity looks to increase donations so they can help more people (good ones at least). That is like the WT and influence.

 

Also if you had the smartest, most well meaning prime minister, he/she still has to work within the rules and with the support of the house. Unlike a president, prime ministers are quite vulnerable to the whims of the house of commons, similar to an Amyriln. Siuan couldn't do much because he plan for TG would get her stilled. Until Egwene can change the whole general attitude of all the Aes Sedai, she will have to tread lightly, or be manipulative.

 

Furthermore, there are too few Aes Sedai, and they "meddle" with the whole world, from small issues not worth mentioning in the books to bigger ones. Siuan herself says in tEotW that the tower is losing it's grip. Egwene has a lot of rebuilding before the WT will be the force it once was.

 

So you hate her for not instantly saving the world from all it's problems because you mistakenly seem to think that's what she belives the simple existence of the WT will do. It's like bitching at a new CEO for fundraising instead of helping people even though the last few CEOs bankrupted the organization.

[Suttree]

An example to show her priority - in ToM, she received reports that the Borderlands are getting overrun by Trolocs. Yet she didn't to anything to help, not even to send some sisters to the main Borderland cities to evacuate the injured, women and children, etc, which would've been really easy with Travelling. She thought sorting out some internal matters with the Hall was more important.

 

This isn't entirely true, she immediately seized control of the blue network from Siuan to gather intelligence on the situation. We also know there were AS with Ituralde in Maradon from the start of the battle. They are referenced as helping with the healing which I'm sure included the general populace. Don't forget there are already AS already stationed in the Borderlands as with the rulers when they go looking for Rand. Most besides Tenobia left there AS behind, just because it hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean they are just sitting on their hands doing nothing.

 

Ituralde had no AS with him when he was sent to Maradon..so any AS he had with him came with the Ashaman sent by Rand. Most likely the bonded AS. How can Egwene claim credit for that? She did not even know the Trollocs had attacked until after the fact.

 

Long before Rand shows upin Maradon, from "To Make A Stand" just after Yoelli pulls Ituralde in the gates it says.

 

The Asha'man and Aes Sedai had worked to Heal Ituralde's men, but only the worst cases could get attention.

 

Regardless it so funny when people try to pick and choose what they give AS credit for. Regardless of of who sent them (Siuan, Elaida, Egwene, Rand) it counts as AS helping fight trollocs in the Borderlands.

[randsc]

That's right. But you credited EGWENE. That's the point. The whole thread of the conversation generally, and specifically David's post that you responded to, was about EGWENE'S actions and inactions. And EGWENE deserves no credit for the AS at Maradon.

[Durinax]

I actually see the AS collecting donations from the borderlands much like Obama accepting the Nobel peace prize, in both cases undeserved and makes the entire thing look terrible.

 

 

Suttree I think part of the convo was that egwene did not do anything to assist with the problems in the borderlands. not that there where absolutely no AS up there, just that Egwene did nothing. rand is also to blame but at least he managed to send one of the great generals there with a sizeable force (originally)

[Suttree]

That's right. But you credited EGWENE. That's the point. The whole thread of the conversation generally, and specifically David's post that you responded to, was about EGWENE'S actions and inactions. And EGWENE deserves no credit for the AS at Maradon.

 

I never said she was directly responsible. People were asking why AS didn't ever send help to the Borderlands, I pointed out that along with Eggy gathering intelligence, their were already AS stationed in the BLS, along with sisters helping in Maradon.

 

The Aes Sedai aren't sending sisters to fight the Trollocs

 

As Amrylin, Egwene bears responsibility and deserves credit for AS actions everywhere. Did I expect a much more overwhelming response when she got the news of trolloc attacks? Without a doubt but we still have AMoL to see what the actual course of action will be.