Elayne - Caemlyn - the One Power

[randsc]

There is no way you could possibly have read Uno's comment as sarcastic. He was saying it in the context of swearing fealty to Rand, something I imagine he took rather seriously.

[Kahsm]

Five ride forth, and four return.Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,bannered 'cross the sky in fire.

 

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

 

Maybe this just means he'll break the oath rod, or end the practice somehow. I love how people seem to think they know what a prophecy means just cause some characters quoted it in relation to decisions they made they wanted to chalk up to the pattern.

[randsc]

Five ride forth, and four return.Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,bannered 'cross the sky in fire.

 

When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties.

 

Maybe this just means he'll break the oath rod, or end the practice somehow. I love how people seem to think they know what a prophecy means just cause some characters quoted it in relation to decisions they made they wanted to chalk up to the pattern.

 

Well, if you're applying that standard (the piece you have quoted is a direct quote from the written prophecy, not something said by a character) then none of the prophecies, foretellings, visions, dreams, etc can be relied upon. In which case Dragonmount.com might as well close up shop.

 

Besides, what would "shatter all ties mean?" Something about neck wear?

Edited July 19, 2011 by randsc

[XXX]

It is immaterial if Andorans would have accepted Rand or not. If Rand did not know Elayne he would have put a steward in place to rule for him like he did elsewhere. With the Aiel behind him..there is nothing Andorans could have done differently from Tear or Illian or Carhein. Some would have revolted but would never have dared to fight the Aiel face to face.

 

It is not like Andorans are more loyal to the monarchy than any other place..after all the 2 rivers was in open revolt.

Edited July 19, 2011 by XXX47

[Suttree]

It is immaterial if Andorans would have accepted Rand or not. If Rand did not know Elayne he would have put a steward in place to rule for him like he did elsewhere. With the Aiel behind him..there is nothing Andorans could have done differently from Tear or Illian or Carhein. Some would have revolted but would never have dared to fight the Aiel face to face.

 

It is not like Andorans are more loyal to the monarchy than any other place..after all the 2 rivers was in open revolt.

 

1. Rand was a Regent, he never took the throne as in Tear or Cairhein, nor allowed the Aiel to take the fifth. His POV clearly shows what his thoughts were speaking with Dyelin.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

2. Andor has a much larger Army than all those other nations mentioned and while Rand controlled Caemlyn he had zero hold on the rest of a very large nation. Once again, I have no idea why people are choosing to ignore what is made plain in the text. Both nobles and commoners expressed a unified desire to drive the Aiel out. They reference what has happened in other nations and vow to not allow it in Andor.

 

3. Andorans are described as being more patriotic than other countries. It is a decrease in population that has prevented her Queens from exercising their control of lands west of the River Manetherendrelle for several generations. The Two Rivers didn't know they were part of Andor so can hardly be used as an example.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Suttree

[ironisles]

2. Andor has a much larger Army than all those other nations mentioned and while Rand controlled Caemlyn he had zero hold on the rest of a very large nation. Once again, I have no idea why people are choosing to ignore what is made plain in the text. Both nobles and commoners expressed a unified desire to drive the Aiel out. They reference what has happened in other nations and vow to not allow it in Andor.

=======================================================================================================================

 

 

As has been stated, Andor's huge army would have to be raised, trained and equipped. That would take months.

The Aiel are already there. I reallly doubt common rabble would have routed the Aiel.

[Suttree]

2. Andor has a much larger Army than all those other nations mentioned and while Rand controlled Caemlyn he had zero hold on the rest of a very large nation. Once again, I have no idea why people are choosing to ignore what is made plain in the text. Both nobles and commoners expressed a unified desire to drive the Aiel out. They reference what has happened in other nations and vow to not allow it in Andor.

=======================================================================================================================

 

 

As has been stated, Andor's huge army would have to be raised, trained and equipped. That would take months.

The Aiel are already there. I reallly doubt common rabble would have routed the Aiel.

 

To my knowledge no one has claimed they would have succeeded, I've only just pointed out the Andoran sentiment that RJ put forth in the story.

 

As a side note historically a large part of Anglo-Saxon levies were comprised of part-time soldiers from the land owning aristocracy. They had their own weapons and armor along with some amount of training. In Andor's case you would have the Queen's Guard, the noble houses standing armies and then levies called upon in times of crisis.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Suttree

[XXX]

It is immaterial if Andorans would have accepted Rand or not. If Rand did not know Elayne he would have put a steward in place to rule for him like he did elsewhere. With the Aiel behind him..there is nothing Andorans could have done differently from Tear or Illian or Carhein. Some would have revolted but would never have dared to fight the Aiel face to face.

 

It is not like Andorans are more loyal to the monarchy than any other place..after all the 2 rivers was in open revolt.

 

1. Rand was a Regent, he never took the throne as in Tear or Cairhein, nor allowed the Aiel to take the fifth. His POV clearly shows what his thoughts were speaking with Dyelin.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

2. Andor has a much larger Army than all those other nations mentioned and while Rand controlled Caemlyn he had zero hold on the rest of a very large nation. Once again, I have no idea why people are choosing to ignore what is made plain in the text. Both nobles and commoners expressed a unified desire to drive the Aiel out. They reference what has happened in other nations and vow to not allow it in Andor.

 

3. Andorans are described as being more patriotic than other countries. It is a decrease in population that has prevented her Queens from exercising their control of lands west of the River Manetherendrelle for several generations. The Two Rivers didn't know they were part of Andor so can hardly be used as an example.

 

The fact is they could not do it..the Aiel would have smashed them. Talk is pretty cheap. I could say I am going to take on Randy Coutore..in reality I would not last 10 sec before getting my teeth knocked out.

 

Not sure if the Andoran army is stronger than Tear..both are considered the strongest nations in randland...it is immaterial anyway because the Aiel is stronger than all of them.

 

The Aiel took the 5th in Tear..they also took the 5th in Illian. Cairhein I am not certain but I think Rand fobid it because of how badly the city was smashed up. The only reason they did not take the 5th in Andor was that Rand wanted to hold the throne for Elayne. As I said if he did not know Elayne they would have taken the 5th like they did elsewhere and except for talk nothing much the Andorans could do about it.

Edited July 20, 2011 by XXX47

[cookiecrisp]

It'd most likely turn out as at most 20,000 Andormen from the neutral high seats against 30,000 Andormen from the high seats that sieged Caemlyn and the other ones licking Rand's boots and the Aiel and Saldeans.

 

The neutral high seats turned out all the armsmen on their estates held. There's no way they'd all come to fight the ruling power in Caemlyn and 5 times their number in trained soldiers instead of a patriotic Succession.

 

It would have been a gesture more than a real battle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Elayne would find it suicidal to use OP in attempt to gain the throne of Andor. She'd look like a white tower puppet, and be held in low regard by the white tower itself.

 

To compound on that, her opponents could have contracted Taim's Ashaman while giving them special rights in Andor if it became obvious OP was being used against them.

 

The neutral high seats were ready to fight the full might of the rebel Aes Sedai and their army to stop what they thought was going to be an Ashaman v Aes Sedai battle that would've turned half of Andor into slag. I'm sure no one in Andor, especially the politically savvy Elayne would have risked a move stupid enough to leave her the queen of a glass plain.

[Hybrid]

The fact is they could not do it..the Aiel would have smashed them. Talk is pretty cheap. I could say I am going to take on Randy Coutore..in reality I would not last 10 sec before getting my teeth knocked out.

 

Not sure if the Andoran army is stronger than Tear..both are considered the strongest nations in randland...it is immaterial anyway because the Aiel is stronger than all of them.

 

Enough with the strawmen.

 

Suttree merely said that the Andorans would unite to drive out the Aiel, if it came to that. He never said that they would succeed.

[Din]

The Aiel took the 5th in Tear..they also took the 5th in Illian.

You mean 'fifth'. '5th' doesn't make any sense.

[Suttree]

It'd most likely turn out as at most 20,000 Andormen from the neutral high seats against 30,000 Andormen from the high seats that sieged Caemlyn and the other ones licking Rand's boots and the Aiel and Saldeans.

 

Lets look at what actually happened. The siege only started because Dyelin would not declare. She had unified support amongst the noble houses(hell she was having to arrest people to stop them putting her name forth), it was not until Elayne officially declared that the houses splintered off. There were no nobles in support of Rand let alone Andorans sucking up to Aiel or Saldeans.

[David Selig]

I don't think Dyelin ever definitely had a majority of supporters among the High Seats. She had 6 High Seats supporting her, 7 if you count herself. The 4 underage High Seats maybe would've supported her if she hasn't told them she's for Elayne, but that's unclear. Elenia, Naean, Arimilla, Nasin, Carind and Lir were never for Dyelin.

[Suttree]

I don't think Dyelin ever definitely had a majority of supporters among the High Seats. She had 6 High Seats supporting her, 7 if you count herself. The 4 underage High Seats maybe would've supported her if she hasn't told them she's for Elayne, but that's unclear. Elenia, Naean, Arimilla, Nasin, Carind and Lir were never for Dyelin.

 

I think it was made pretty clear that had Dyelin announced she would have had the majority. The key is what would unify Andorans when dealing with Aiel and foreigners on their soil. It is safe to assume Dyelin held sway over the underage highseats. Remember Trakand was far less popular than Taravin.

 

Add Traemane and you have 12 Major houses in addition to the lesser lords and ladies that were proclaiming for her.(such as the ones hanged in Aringill) When faced with a foreign foe and they would find common cause. We must also remember it wasn't until after Dyelin declined the throne that Sarand and Arawn even put forth a claim.

[Cheyboygan]

Rand definitely could have appointed Elayne ruler of Andor as easily as he appointed rulers in Cairhien and Tear (and would have in Illian had they not chosen to make him King instead).  Elayne *choose* civil war rather than being "gifted" the throne by Rand.  It was simply her ego that lead to thousands of unnecessary deaths and delayed preparation for the Last Battle (not to mention an extremely long and pointless plot line).  The theoretical 200,000 man Andor army did not exist and would never have been allowed to form if they tried to oust the Dragon Reborn or his appointed ruler.  Even the largest Andoran lords would have only retained a few hundred professional soldiers with the bulk of their "armies" being poorly trained and armed levies.   They could not have stood against the Aiel and Bashere's borderlanders,  even if they weren't supported by Rand and his Ashaman (which they clearly would have been).  This is not to say that some Lords might not have tried to raise their levies, but they never would have brought together an army the size that Arymilla did, nor gotten so far as to lay siege to Caemlyn.  Indeed some who joined that army would have joined Rand instead.   The nobility acts mostly out of self interest and that means choosing the winning side is at least as important as choosing the right side (and Arymillia's claim to being the right side was pretty weak).   So the issue is not why Elayne didn't use the One Power to fight her opponents in the War of Succession, but why she insisted on fighting it in the first place.