Why are people upset with Sanderson's take on Mat?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

oh, Piotrek, Piotrek, Piotrek. . .

 

i think you know i wasn't arguing with anyone. just offering my private opinion. which is essentially in agreement with yours. with the wonderment at the odd thread locking, and all. musing on the whys and wherefores.

 

yes, the forums where they do that kind of knee-jerk censorship are very sad, and i don't go to them once i see it happening. i've seen it most often on sites run by the authors or the publishers. not of these books, that i know. just in general.

[Guest PiotrekS]

oh, Piotrek, Piotrek, Piotrek. . .

 

i think you know i wasn't arguing with anyone. just offering my private opinion. which is essentially in agreement with yours. with the wonderment at the odd thread locking, and all. musing on the whys and wherefores.

 

I know

 

yes, the forums where they do that kind of knee-jerk censorship are very sad, and i don't go to them once i see it happening. i've seen it most often on sites run by the authors or the publishers. not of these books, that i know. just in general.

 

I have my own small experience in being publicly judged, because I teach some classes at the university. I used sometimes to look at student forums to see what they would write about my classes

 

Maybe I shouldn't have, but the lack of sincere feedback can be a serious problem when you want to get better in someting that involves working with people. I really appreciated the chance to read some comments about my work (even if one student wrote that the classes had been boring ) and I wouldn't be able to do so if I (and them) knew that negative comments would be deleted. I think everybody benefits from free speech (provided we protect vulnerable people against hate speech and such).

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you're brave. i don't think i could look at that kind of criticism myself. especially internet criticism, where the anonymity and lack of human contact seems to scrap most of our inhibitions against being jerks that eye contact can sometimes provide. and especially from students - i remember being a student. . . but my work is subject to many levels of review and criticism, so it's not like i have to make an effort to seek it out.

 

i think i've read that brandon doesn't cruise fan sites (as they tend to get author-bashy and hateful at times), but that he has friends who do, and if something seems important, they pass on the info. like the mat thing. so we're probably not going to hurt his feelings. directly, anyway.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think the writer must try to keep some kind of balance in taking into account readers' opinion and discussions - to avoid being disconnected from his readers, but not to let himself be enslaved by trying to accomodate infinitely diverse wishes and opinions.

 

I'm sure it is good to avoid such discussions about yourself - for "psychic hygiene", but on the other hand you need sincere feedback. From the author's perspective, I think it would be indeed best to let people write what they will on the forum, avoid such discussions personally and have somebody who you trust look at them for you sometimes. Because if you ban some discussions from the public spaces, they will simply reemerge somewhere in private and you loose a source of information.

 

And it can be extremely rewarding to read a positive opinion about your work from a student, when you know he/she didn't have to write it and could have written something negative without any consequences Of course, maybe it is safer because there is some kind of pre-selection - I wouldn't try to read popular forums on politics etc. But I think that Dragonmount forum , where people discuss about books, provides some basic pre-selection (most agressive and hateful posters are not really much into books IMHO )

[sleepinghour]

yes, the forums where they do that kind of knee-jerk censorship are very sad, and i don't go to them once i see it happening. i've seen it most often on sites run by the authors or the publishers. not of these books, that i know. just in general.

I tend to avoid places that censor too much, but I do get why some forums prefer to stay on the safe side to avoid any chance of author meltdowns/accusations of libel or just don't want to deal with too much negativity bringing the general mood down. Forums run by the author or publisher also have a natural interest in making the author look good. Tor seems pretty laid-back about it though as Leigh Butler's reread posts aren't always complimentary of RJ's writing.

 

i think i've read that brandon doesn't cruise fan sites (as they tend to get author-bashy and hateful at times), but that he has friends who do, and if something seems important, they pass on the info.

To any Team Jordan moles : Could you maybe gently suggest to Brandon that he write something similar to the text below as an epilogue to AMoL? I feel it would stay true to RJ's vision and also ensure a lively discussion for many years to come...

 

Egwene pulled open a small door, intending to find her way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and she stopped, the blood draining from her face.

 

"You? No!"

[Guest PiotrekS]

To any Team Jordan moles : Could you maybe gently suggest to Brandon that he write something similar to the text below as an epilogue to AMoL? I feel it would stay true to RJ's vision and also ensure a lively discussion for many years to come...

 

Egwene pulled open a small door, intending to find her way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and she stopped, the blood draining from her face.

 

"You? No!"

 

YES!

[Entreri]

Mat was so off in book 12. The problem is that Mat is the most complex character and it is not surprising that a new author would make this mistake. I think for the most part that has been corrected in book 13.

 

I think Soreila is a little bit off as well and still is.

[Superhal]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

Not unusual at all. Any site, journalist, etc. that cooperates with professionals in any industry needs to maintain good relationships with them. Free speech is not universal, and it is not meant to restrict private businesses. The main restriction of the First Amendment is to prevent the government, not individuals, from stopping journalists from reporting negative things about the government. Individuals and public (not government) businesses can restrict free speech as much as they want.

 

Think about it like this: the government can't take away your guns, but your job can fire you for bringing one to work.

 

Given the number of interviews with the author at this site, I'm happy not to criticize them to keep that flow of information.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you're mixing your amendments, i think on purpose. . .

 

but i will not derail further thataway.

 

just curious - are you one of them team jordan moles ? or are you an independent agent of toy'mayhem?

[Guest PiotrekS]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

Not unusual at all. Any site, journalist, etc. that cooperates with professionals in any industry needs to maintain good relationships with them. Free speech is not universal, and it is not meant to restrict private businesses. The main restriction of the First Amendment is to prevent the government, not individuals, from stopping journalists from reporting negative things about the government. Individuals and public (not government) businesses can restrict free speech as much as they want.

 

Think about it like this: the government can't take away your guns, but your job can fire you for bringing one to work.

 

Given the number of interviews with the author at this site, I'm happy not to criticize them to keep that flow of information.

 

I don't share your very disturbing view of Brandon or Team Jordan - i.e. that they would cease their cooperation with Dragonmount because some poster wrote something critical in the forum and it wasn't promptly removed. I have more respect for them than that. (and I don't think they care for such trivialities).

 

Free speech was used in coloquial, not legal sense, I think. Nobody's arguing than any rights have been infringed.

[Finnssss22]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

 

If it was true censorship, they would of just deleted the whole thing, they didn't.

You got to say what you wanted to say and are still publicly accessible. What were you going to do, have 10 more pages where you argued with people over how the books felt to you and them? C'mon, seriously, where's that going to get anyone?

 

BTW, there is a difference between saying something like "Can't write this or that" and "Doesn't do it as well". It is possible to criticize something without flat out attacking it.

 

The message you should of got was, discuss anything you want but do it constructively.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

 

If it was true censorship, they would of just deleted the whole thing, they didn't.

You got to say what you wanted to say and are still publicly accessible. What were you going to do, have 10 more pages where you argued with people over how the books felt to you and them? C'mon, seriously, where's that going to get anyone?

 

BTW, there is a difference between saying something like "Can't write this or that" and "Doesn't do it as well". It is possible to criticize something without flat out attacking it.

 

The message you should of got was, discuss anything you want but do it constructively.

 

Dingdingding. Ladies and gentleman, we have a winner!

[Elan Tedronai]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

 

If it was true censorship, they would of just deleted the whole thing, they didn't.

You got to say what you wanted to say and are still publicly accessible. What were you going to do, have 10 more pages where you argued with people over how the books felt to you and them? C'mon, seriously, where's that going to get anyone?

 

BTW, there is a difference between saying something like "Can't write this or that" and "Doesn't do it as well". It is possible to criticize something without flat out attacking it.

 

The message you should of got was, discuss anything you want but do it constructively.

 

 

BS. Absolute BS.

 

When i made that thread, i gave reasons. Go and look it there if you want. I gave genuine reasons why sanderson was the wrong author for this job. Some posters agreed and some did'nt. Each side gave their reasons. There was no flare ups or rude comments. Certainly not by me.

 

And then all of a sudden, a Mod says 'Feel freee to create and talk about any discussion except this' And thread was locked just like that.

 

I mean WTH? Since when did mods tell us what and what not to dicuss? It was blatant censorship. Nothing more nothing less. This site and their admiminstraters are close to team jordan. Nothing wrong with that. But their closesness has blinded them to a degree. It should have been obvious when jason gave his TOM review. One of the average books of the series and he gave it a thumbs up.

 

This site has started to veer off from being originally a fan site to something like a Tor shill site.

[Finnssss22]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

 

If it was true censorship, they would of just deleted the whole thing, they didn't.

You got to say what you wanted to say and are still publicly accessible. What were you going to do, have 10 more pages where you argued with people over how the books felt to you and them? C'mon, seriously, where's that going to get anyone?

 

BTW, there is a difference between saying something like "Can't write this or that" and "Doesn't do it as well". It is possible to criticize something without flat out attacking it.

 

The message you should of got was, discuss anything you want but do it constructively.

 

 

BS. Absolute BS.

 

When i made that thread, i gave reasons. Go and look it there if you want. I gave genuine reasons why sanderson was the wrong author for this job. Some posters agreed and some did'nt. Each side gave their reasons. There was no flare ups or rude comments. Certainly not by me.

 

And then all of a sudden, a Mod says 'Feel freee to create and talk about any discussion except this' And thread was locked just like that.

 

I mean WTH? Since when did mods tell us what and what not to dicuss? It was blatant censorship. Nothing more nothing less. This site and their admiminstraters are close to team jordan. Nothing wrong with that. But their closesness has blinded them to a degree. It should have been obvious when jason gave his TOM review. One of the average books of the series and he gave it a thumbs up.

 

This site has started to veer off from being originally a fan site to something like a Tor shill site.

 

 

But what more were you going to accomplish exactly?

Argue with people over how they should or shouldn't of felt after reading the last two books? Argue over who's "feelings" are right or wrong? Seriously?

That bell has rung my friend, there's no changing that feeling now.

It's like CoT for me, I have re-read it a few times and I have come to not dislike the book as much as I did initially but the feeling I had after the original reading will never truly change.

 

You said your peace, your post is still there, you're not banned.

Again, what do you want? To argue with people over whose "feelings" are right and wrong?

Head shake time.

 

...and see, there you go again. You don't say that you disagree with Jason for his review of ToM, you actively attack him and his opinion. What part of you can't call someone's opinion on a subjective topic wrong? Disagree all you want but neither you nor he are right or wrong.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with a constructive thread on the subject but it seems quite obvious that you are not capable of such.

[Vambram]

Dragonmount is NOTHING at all like a Tor shill site.

 

 

Sounds like to me that someone ought to get his emotions back under control.

[yoniy0]

Hey, guys, let's not get personal here, okay?

Elan Tedronai, I get your dissatisfaction, and I understand that you need to vent. That's fine. But let's not derail Toy'varen's thread just to do it. The issue at hand is Mat.

 

For what it's worth, I definitely agree that Mat was different. Not his character, the things that define him, but his voice. ToM has seen a change for the better, but much of it was written by RJ, so I'm not sure where the credit belongs.

The whole point's insignificant, though. Of course Brandon's writing doesn't sound like RJ's. It wasn't supposed to. It should capture the essence of the story, and for me that's about what makes the characters tick, and how they interact with one another. That's all still there, and I say that makes it WoT. That's my 2c.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

sorry, Toy'varen, i didin't mean to get personal. it's just that a nick that starts with toy makes me want to play. please excuse my social ineptitude.

[Superhal]

Meh, there hasn't been any new arguments in days. It seems like there's only one: his humor is more direct than before.

 

It seems to me that he's been the butt of the joke for so long people can't accept him telling them for a change.

[Luckers]

Alright guys, here's the thing. That thread shouldn't have been locked. It happened because Jenn--who is insanely busy doing all manner of amazing stuff for you all (like seriously, the list is without end, and is constant)--had to step in and cover my absense (my computer exploded. There were literally flames). She had next to no time to do so, but she did the best she could. It wasn't perfect, but that's my fault, not hers.

 

The thread has been re-opened, and to be clear we have no issues with criticism of Brandon, so long as they are done in a polite and constructive manner.

 

From there i reiterate Yoniyo's instruction... this thread is on Mat, and this is the end of conversation on the moderation of that thread.