Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Entreri]

Nynaeve is closer comparison to Rand. Her impossible discoveries, beating a Forsaken while barely trained...balefiring Myddraal without being taught, helping cleanse saidin, passing what was probably the hardest AS test in 3000 years...

 

What will AMoL bring? She will be one of Rand's companions in AMoL. She keeps going on about that death cannot be healed...

[XXX]

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power. Provide one example that completely amazed/shocked people (e.g. Rand untainting saidin, Maradon, Nyaneve curing severing...).

 

Rediscovering how to make Cuendillar was pretty awesome...and to all the people that keep saying she is replaceable let's not forget Moraine's quote:

 

“You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren - perhaps - but strong even so..."

 

 

Yippeee...Egwene can make a shiny metal. Maybe she can distract the trollocs running to eat her by making toys from it?

 

Moriane can't foretell and she does not have the ability to see viewings..how would she know?

[Suttree]

Of course she is replaceable. Even ta'veren are replaceable. Hell, even Dragons are replaceable.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think the pattern can be overloaded. When I said not replaceable I meant at this late date, it can't just keep spitting out replaceable parts. The skill sets and characteristics of each individual have taken years to get just right. The threads in the pattern are placed just so far in advance and all are needed to help fight at TG.

 

Moriane can't foretell and she does not have the ability to see viewings..how would she know?

 

Kind of like how would Rand know he had never turned to the shadow all the way back in TGH before he started having any of his memories? You were more than happy to use that as evidence as I recall...

[Puny]

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power. Provide one example that completely amazed/shocked people (e.g. Rand untainting saidin, Maradon, Nyaneve curing severing...).

 

Rediscovering how to make Cuendillar was pretty awesome...and to all the people that keep saying she is replaceable let's not forget Moraine's quote:

 

“You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren - perhaps - but strong even so..."

 

 

Yippeee...Egwene can make a shiny metal. Maybe she can distract the trollocs running to eat her by making toys from it?

 

Moriane can't foretell and she does not have the ability to see viewings..how would she know?

 

Egwene is no ta´veren. There isn´t a mention anywhere in the books whatsoever so we can drop this I think. And Moir saying she is part of the Pattern, bloody flaming ashes, so is everyone. I can understand that Eg is important as in another weight to the Lightside ( numerous lights and all that) but that she is ta´veren... no. Replacable... yes.

Suttree; That´s what I mean. Many people are important, or heavy threads or w/e you wanna call it. If she dies the Light may have it much more difficult to win, but win I think they still can, even though it will be alot harder.

[Suttree]

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power. Provide one example that completely amazed/shocked people (e.g. Rand untainting saidin, Maradon, Nyaneve curing severing...).

 

Rediscovering how to make Cuendillar was pretty awesome...and to all the people that keep saying she is replaceable let's not forget Moraine's quote:

 

“You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren - perhaps - but strong even so..."

 

 

Yippeee...Egwene can make a shiny metal. Maybe she can distract the trollocs running to eat her by making toys from it?

 

Moriane can't foretell and she does not have the ability to see viewings..how would she know?

 

Egwene is no ta´veren. There isn´t a mention anywhere in the books whatsoever so we can drop this I think. And Moir saying she is part of the Pattern, bloody flaming ashes, so is everyone. I can understand that Eg is important as in another weight to the Lightside ( numerous lights and all that) but that she is ta´veren... no. Replacable... yes.

Suttree; That´s what I mean. Many people are important, or heavy threads or w/e you wanna call it. If she dies the Light may have it much more difficult to win, but win I think they still can, even though it will be alot harder.

 

I never meant to mean she was Ta'veren, not sure about anyone else? Moiraine seems to think she is something just short of that however, and tied to the pattern far more strongly than you average person.

[XXX]

How would Moiraine know that?

[David Selig]

Because Moiraine was the chief infodumper in the early books and knew all kinds of things she logically shouldn't (ie Samail rules in Illian), and was right 99% of the time.

[AshaShan]

I never meant to mean she was Ta'veren, not sure about anyone else? Moiraine seems to think she is something just short of that however, and tied to the pattern far more strongly than you average person.

 

Moiraine thought "leads the spears to war once more" meant that Rand had to take the Tairen spears to war against Sammael, cause, y'know, some guys in Tear's armies sometimes carry spears. I can't believe people would give her hyperbolic comments about the Pattern any credence. Moiraine spent alot of her time in the books blatantly talking out of her arse. Everything is part of the Pattern we're told, man and woman, fish and fowl. Describing Egwene as part of the Pattern don't count for anything.

[Durinax]

well she had an informative guess, afterall sammael had distinctive markings and his cover story happened rather quickly especially to such prominence

[Suttree]

I never meant to mean she was Ta'veren, not sure about anyone else? Moiraine seems to think she is something just short of that however, and tied to the pattern far more strongly than you average person.

 

Moiraine thought "leads the spears to war once more" meant that Rand had to take the Tairen spears to war against Sammael, cause, y'know, some guys in Tear's armies sometimes carry spears. I can't believe people would give her hyperbolic comments about the Pattern any credence. Moiraine spent alot of her time in the books blantantly talking out of her arse. Everything is part of the Pattern we're told, man and woman, fish and fowl. Describing Egwene as part of the Pattern don't count for anything.

 

It does when she mentions them as being just short of Ta'veren. That is quite different from everything being part of the pattern. David was right in that she played a role in setting the history for much of what we needed to know early in the books. The vast majority of what she told us was right. This was obviously RJ singling out how important the girls would be to the Light's cause.

 

How would Moiraine know that?

 

As I asked you earlier, how would Rand have know in TGH that he had never turned to the Dark? This was far before he had any of LTT's memories and you were more than happy to use that as evidence.

[XXX]

Because Moiraine was the chief infodumper in the early books and knew all kinds of things she logically shouldn't (ie Samail rules in Illian), and was right 99% of the time.

 

She deduced the Samuel thing by the dreams people were having.

 

Unless she has some special power not told till now she has no way of knowing whether Egwene is a special thread or an ordinary thread.

 

Now instead of claiming that making shiny metal is Egwene's OP accomplishment(which makes her a laughing stock in a world full of war)..why not say rediscovering Travelling is her great achievement. She would have had it figured out in her time with the Aiel itself except that she asked Rand for confirmation and got confused when he gave her the male way of doing it.

[XXX]

 

 

As I asked you earlier, how would Rand have know in TGH that he had never turned to the Dark? This was far before he had any of LTT's memories and you were more than happy to use that as evidence.

 

I never used Rand's word as confirmation..I said that if his soul had turned to the dark once then it could never again be the dragon soul in any age.

[AshaShan]

It does when she mentions them as being just short of Ta'veren. That is quite different from everything being part of the pattern. David was right in that she played a role in setting the history for much of what we needed to know early in the books. The vast majority of what she told us was right. This was obviously RJ singling out how important the girls would be to the Light's cause.

 

So your argument is that Egwene is all-but equal to ta'veren because Moiraine hinted she was and Moiraine was the voice of RJ.

 

And that time when she, bound to speak no word that is not true, threatened to kill one of the three ta'veren, the only ones we can know for certain are crucial to the Pattern, that was what exactly? Because to me it looked like a woman who couldn't swim just got thrown in at the deep end and was desperately trying to paddle to shore while telling everyone nearby that she was fine. Moiraine's opinion was simply that, her opinion. And IMO its not an overly weighty one.

[Suttree]

It does when she mentions them as being just short of Ta'veren. That is quite different from everything being part of the pattern. David was right in that she played a role in setting the history for much of what we needed to know early in the books. The vast majority of what she told us was right. This was obviously RJ singling out how important the girls would be to the Light's cause.

 

So your argument is that Egwene is all-but equal to ta'veren because Moiraine hinted she was and Moiraine was the voice of RJ.

 

And that time when she, bound to speak no word that is not true, threatened to kill one of the three ta'veren, the only ones we can know for certain are crucial to the Pattern, that was what exactly? Because to me it looked like a woman who couldn't swim just got thrown in at the deep end and was desperately trying to paddle to shore while telling everyone nearby that she was fine. Moiraine's opinion was simply that, her opinion. And IMO its not an overly weighty one.

 

What possible reason would he have for putting that in, early on in the series when he was establishing the ground rules if it is false? I guess we will see in AMoL...if she doesn't play an important role you could be right.

 

As for her threat, nice of you to leave out her reason, which was to not let them be turned to the dark. We now know that was the Shadow's chief goal initially. Pretty decisive actually for someone in over their head. Are you actually trying to demean Moiraine's knowledge and the role she played in getting everything started? That would be a first, even people that despise AS can you usually admit she did a damn good job.

[AshaShan]

 

What possible reason would he have for putting that in, early on in the series when he was establishing the ground rules if it is false? I guess we will see in AMoL...if she doesn't play an important role you could be right.

 

As for her threat, nice of you to leave out her reason, which was to not let them be turned to the dark. We now know that was the Shadow's chief goal initially. Pretty decisive actually for someone in over their head. Are you actually trying to demean Moiraine's knowledge and the role she played in getting everything started? That would be a first, even people that despise AS can you usually admit she did a damn good job.

 

Those pidgeons that startled Eagan Padros and made him miss his shot in TPOD played a pretty important role. They ain't ta'veren or near equal to though.

 

Moiraine's lack of knowledge, combined with her belief that she possessed both the ability to predict what the Pattern intended and the right to manage how that intention became reality, was what coloured most of the early books. Had she got her way the Stone would not have fallen, the Aiel would not have been united behind Rand, Perrin would never have become Lord of the Two Rivers and Callandor would have been taken to the White Tower to await whoever wanted to come claim it. To her immense credit she was able to realise how wrong she had been, how wrong the Aes Sedai's teachings had guided her to be, and stop trying to mess everything up. Shes one of the best Aes Sedai for the simple reason that she abandoned the beliefs and goals of that order. Not the surface ones, protect the world from the Shadow, but the hidden core beliefs, control the world for the glory of the Tower. Moiraine stopped being the Gandalf of the series at the start of TDR and was surpassed by her charge all too quickly. I like her better than most Aes Sedai, but putting her forward as a sacred cow who speaks for the Creator concerning the hidden meaning of the Wheel is just nuts.

[Suttree]

Those pidgeons that startled Eagan Padros and made him miss his shot in TPOD played a pretty important role. They ain't ta'veren or near equal to though.

 

Ok you are just being silly at this point...

 

Shes one of the best Aes Sedai for the simple reason that she abandoned the beliefs and goals of that order. Not the surface ones, protect the world from the Shadow, but the hidden core beliefs, control the world for the glory of the Tower.

 

Please provide one instance where Egwene is guiding the AS in an attempt to control the world for the glory of the Tower. In fact earlier in the thread it is shown quite clearly what her main goal is...

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

I like her better than most Aes Sedai, but putting her forward as a sacred cow who speaks for the Creator concerning the hidden meaning of the Wheel is just nuts.

 

No idea why you are being contrary about this, as David said she played the role of infodump in the early books. So yes she very much did speak for RJ in much of what we had to know. Speaking straight out, establishing two girls importance to the pattern relative to Ta'veren early on is hardly a "hidden" meaning. It's pretty funny btw, someone insisting the AS at their core have a secret hidden agenda to control the world solely for the glory of the tower and the surface one standing against the shadow is just a front. I'm sure you have some Illuminati theories you would like to share with us all too. Talk about nuts...

[AshaShan]

Ok you are just being silly at this point...

 

Yes, but theres a kernel of truth to it. Those pidgeons saved the life of the one person we know is irreplacable. Egwene has never saved Rand. Therefore pidgeons > Egwene. Its common sense!

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

Which of those monarchs, united behind the Dragon, were planning to do anything other than "serve mankind at the Last Battle" prior to Egwene's power play? This is the problem with Aes Sedai. They say mankind, but they really mean themselves and the Tower. The forces of mankind were being forged into an army against the Shadow while the Tower was involved in a glorified hair-pulling contest. Now that all the work is done Egwene wants to be in charge of that army, while oh so conveniently tying said monarchs to her long-dreamt-of authority.

 

No idea why you are being contrary about this, as David said she played the role of infodump in the early books. So yes she very much did speak for RJ in much of what we had to know. Speaking straight out, establishing two girls importance to the pattern relative to Ta'veren early on is hardly a "hidden" meaning. It's pretty funny btw, someone insisting the AS at their core have a secret hidden agenda to control the world solely for the glory of the tower and the surface one standing against the shadow is just a front. I'm sure you have some Illuminati theories you would like to share with us all too. Talk about nuts...

 

Taking a character with a distinct personality and beliefs and trying to turn her into the voice of the author is demeaning to her and to the author himself. RJ was not the greatest writer that ever lived but he was good enough not to have Moiraine be a narrator rather than a fallible individual. Her opinion was her opinion, nothing more.

[XXX]

 

Please provide one instance where Egwene is guiding the AS in an attempt to control the world for the glory of the Tower. In fact earlier in the thread it is shown quite clearly what her main goal is...

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

 

 

That is her problem...the "tie the monarchs to the White Tower" type thinking. The best AS Cads,Ny,Moriane know that the interests of the WT are absolutely nothing compared to helping the Dragon...Cads pretty much comes out and swears that straight out to Rand.

[Suttree]

Which of those monarchs, united behind the Dragon, were planning to do anything other than "serve mankind at the Last Battle" prior to Egwene's power play? This is the problem with Aes Sedai. They say mankind, but they really mean themselves and the Tower. The forces of mankind were being forged into an army against the Shadow while the Tower was involved in a glorified hair-pulling contest. Now that all the work is done Egwene wants to be in charge of that army, while oh so conveniently tying said monarchs to her long-dreamt-of authority.

 

The BA and a Forsaken plot to split the Tower is a glorified hair pulling contest?

 

As for the AS really meaning themselves when they say mankind, it's so obvious to me now. Forget the shadow! The plot for world domination is well under way, Egwene was just sitting back waiting for TG to strike!

 

Stop trolling.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Egwene is nothing special.

 

Ah yes, I see. Being an extremely powerful Dreamer (potentially greater than any of the Wise Ones), possibly being strong in four (Air, Water, Spirit and Earth), if not five of the Elements of the One Power, being able to weave fourteen different weaves at once, rediscovering Travelling, being able to discover Ores and Metals, being able to produce Cuendillar fast enough to turn the ENTIRE side of the harbour chain into cuendillar in a FLASH (which requires a good deal of skill, btw), and being a very strong channeler (she is currently stronger than Elayne, though eventually they will be equal), is indeed nothing special. Being the Amrylin is nothing special, being able to defeat Mesaana one-one is nothing special.

 

The average person would be able to do that. I see that now.

[XXX]

Egwene is nothing special.

 

Ah yes, I see. Being an extremely powerful Dreamer (potentially greater than any of the Wise Ones), possibly being strong in four (Air, Water, Spirit and Earth), if not five of the Elements of the One Power, being able to weave fourteen different weaves at once, rediscovering Travelling, being able to discover Ores and Metals, being able to produce Cuendillar fast enough to turn the ENTIRE side of the harbour chain into cuendillar in a FLASH (which requires a good deal of skill, btw), and being a very strong channeler (she is currently stronger than Elayne, though eventually they will be equal), is indeed nothing special. Being the Amrylin is nothing special, being able to defeat Mesaana one-one is nothing special.

 

The average person would be able to do that. I see that now.

 

Compared to the Dragon and even Ny she is nothing special. Compared to the average Randlander she is special.

[Himiko]

 

Please provide one instance where Egwene is guiding the AS in an attempt to control the world for the glory of the Tower. In fact earlier in the thread it is shown quite clearly what her main goal is...

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

 

That someone has bolded that one sentence does not mean that it is the character's main motivation. Equally, I could do some bolding of my own, and we get

 

Obliquely, she realized what she is doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against the breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve mankind in the last battle.

 

As others have pointed out, the monarchs of the world were already being coaxed into an army against the Dark by Rand, something which is scarcely kept secret in the books. His motives for telling her he would break the seals ARE kept secret for now, but I don't recall there being any hints to suggest that the nations will not serve mankind in the Last Battle.

 

Let's be honest, she mentions both tying monarchs to the White Tower AND them serving mankind in the Last Battle. You and I and everyone else can bold to our hearts content without making one thing more important than the other. Claiming that Egwene is doing everything she does for entirely selfish motivations is silly, when she has shown that she often thinks about the greater good- whether she is misguided in her attempts to do so or not, is another question. Equally, claiming that there is absolutely no element of trying to gain power/ influence for the WT is stupid, when even she mentions tying monarchs to the White Tower, and admits that she intends to try and be the "dominant partner" in her relationship with the Sea Folk and Wise Ones. Its not just Egwene's failing, its a failing of AS generally, and may well prove to be a failing of the Asha'man, too, once they've been more established as an organisation. Its just that its especially noticeable in Egwene, because we get frequent POVs from her, and she follows the traditional thinking of the organisation.

 

I honestly don't get why Egwene's either got to be seen as the Dark One or the Creator incarnate. I loathe her character, but still accept that she's acheived some impressive things (some of which would be more impressive if other AS didn't turn to fools around her, but that's more of an argument with the writing). I mean, she thought on her feet when the Seanchan attacked, she went to help the novices and got herself sa'angreal, keeping her head when many about her were losing theirs- not a bad feat by any standards. Similarly, I get that several people here like Egwene, but I've noticed in several threads that for some people, liking Egwene translates into "Thinking everything she does is right, or done with the best intentions". Hell, I've heard people swear blind that her actions towards Nynaeve in TFoH were honestly to teach Nynaeve how dangerous TAR was, when she admits to herself that it was to cover her ass.

 

And that aside, however impressive any of the channelers are, and whatever their acheivements, it does not follow that one is more important.

 

Personally, I think that Rand is the "vital" character, and I interpret Min's viewing in EotW as all of the group being connected to something, as them all having been needed to get the world to this stage ready for the last Battle. Not that the others aren't important, haven't been important, or won't be important, that's just how it is, IMO. I could, of course, be wrong. If I am, and her viewing indicates that all the group are important for the Last Battle itself, then its not just Rand and Egwene who are vital, its Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, Thom, Moiraine and Lan, too. This isn't a two-person race for "Most important in the world", if they are both vital based on Min's viewing, there's plenty of others on a level with them.

[Hybrid]

How would Moiraine know that?

 

Min's viewings may have had something to do about it as well.

[Mr Ares]

It continues with an absurd series of posts suggesting that two characters clearly not intended to be equals are in fact equals, or even that the lesser is the greater;

Sprinkled throughout are remarkably foolish statements that a character who been in command for not so much as a skirmish is a better general than one who is, in this life (to say nothing of others), an experienced commander;

And seemingly coming to a conclusion with an assertion that remembering exactly how to accomplish a task(a task involving mental rather than physical effort) somehow does not equal having skill in performing that task.

I see you're still imagining stuff rather than actually reading the thread. After all, it was actually argued that as Egwene has not been in charge of so much as a skirmish there is therefore no evidence to say what her level of skill is. Rand is definitely more experienced, but where is the evidence that he is better? Remembering how to accomplish a task is one thing, but skill is something else - skills, even mental ones, can atrophy with disuse. Even then, an immense knowledge of weaves would not necessarily equal great skill with those weaves.

 

 

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power.

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

"How well did LTT do at the hundred weaves?.

 

He is the only male Aes Sedai still living that was properly raised, as he told Cadsuane.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

"One can kill thousands of Trollocs through strength, it's not a given it's a show of skill. He's defeated Chosen via strength and outside interference, but I can't recall any instance of a win via him being the more skilled channeler."

 

Because your bias is clouding your judgement. Does anybody really think that a 19 year old girl is more skilled than LTT?

Again, LTT has nothing to do with this - it's about Rand and Egwene. And why should I accept that a 19 year old girl is significantly less skilled than a 20 year old boy? And once again, you dodge the point - when has Rand achieved victory over another Chosen via skill, rather than having help or being stronger? Balthamel wasn't killed by Rand, nor was Aginor, nor Be'lal. Ishamael was killed by Rand when he was using callandor - one of the strongest sa'angreal ever made. When he and Asmo were equally matched in strength, his victory came via an angreal giving him a (relatively) tiny edge in terms of strength. Lanfear was killed by Moiraine, Rand was losing to Rahvin until Nynave interfered and gave him a chance to unleash masses of balefire, Graendal killed Asmo, Mashadar killed Sammael, Elza killed Osan'gar, masses of balefire and an assist from Graendal killed Aran'gar, TP and balefire was what did for Semi. Where is Rand's greater skill against the Chosen? How about you show me some evidence that my bias is clouding my judgement?

 

You don't find defeating Forsaken to be impressive?

I do, but "who is the most impressive was not at issue". What we were talking about was who had the most skill. If you challenged me to a contest to see who was the better fencer, the artillery barrage I use to flatten your house and kill you might be impressive, but it wouldn't make me a better swordsman. Rand has some impressive achievements, no doubt about it, but if you are so insistent that Rand is a more skilled channeler, show me the evidence.

 

Egwene herself was amazed at how many ways Rand split his Weaves (book 4).

Splitting weaves is a matter of strength - stronger channelers can split their weaves more ways than weaker ones. Therefore Rand, being stronger than Egwene, should be able to split his weaves more ways.

 

You may well be the only person that believe that Egwene is more skiled than LTT.

It may be that not even I believe it. But I am asking you for evidence that Rand is more skilled. Provide some, or stop trolling.

 

 

As I asked you earlier, how would Rand have know in TGH that he had never turned to the Dark? This was far before he had any of LTT's memories and you were more than happy to use that as evidence.

I never used Rand's word as confirmation..I said that if his soul had turned to the dark once then it could never again be the dragon soul in any age.

Which is something you have made up, with no supporting evidence.

[Suttree]

Equally, claiming that there is absolutely no element of trying to gain power/ influence for the WT is stupid, when even she mentions tying monarchs to the White Tower, and admits that she intends to try and be the "dominant partner" in her relationship with the Sea Folk and Wise Ones. Its not just Egwene's failing, its a failing of AS generally, and may well prove to be a failing of the Asha'man, too, once they've been more established as an organisation. Its just that its especially noticeable in Egwene, because we get frequent POVs from her, and she follows the traditional thinking of the organisation.

 

No one is saying that, there obviously is an element of trying to gain influence for the Tower. But the point is, it is not done because their are "hidden core beliefs" where AS are only working to "control the world for the glory of the Tower". However misguided it is done because they believe they know best how to stand against the Shadow. You yourself admit how often Egwene thinks about the greater good. Somehow that point is never brought up by other posters.