Should Elayne blame Egwene?

[XXX]

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

 

 

 

 

 

And if he disregards her as he intends to...what can she do?

 

The Steward of Illian and Tear are a lot more scared of the Dragon than the Amyrlin. She knows that, she also knows if push comes to shove the Aiel will support Rand. He is their own blood and their chief, their ties are a lot more than hers to the Aiel. So basically all she is counting on is the support of Rand's lover...er..How stupid of a plan is this?

Edited July 5, 2011 by XXX47

[Kahsm]

I'm not sure how quickly the Seanchan could move a whole army. Damane cannot link, and afaik a lot of Aes Sedai aren't even strong enough to make a gateway at all. So unless they have some travel-specific talented channelers, or Damane are much stronger than Aes Sedai on average, they aren't going to be transporting whole armies too quickly and still have Damane fresh enough for battle.

 

So the "defense" for traveling would be to have good scouts all across your land who could see the army moving in, then have better travellers who could make larger, or more, gates to move your counter-force in before the other group is ready.

[randsc]

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

 

 

 

 

 

And if he disregards her as he intends to...what can she do?

 

The Steward of Illian and Tear are a lot more scared of the Dragon than the Amyrlin. She knows that, she also knows if push comes to shove the Aiel will support Rand. He is their own blood and their chief, their ties are a lot more than hers to the Aiel. So basically all she is counting on is the support of Rand's lover...er..How stupid of a plan is this?

 

It really isn't a "plan" at all. It is what was required of her by the Pattern, imposed on her by Rand's ta'veren influence. Since it isn't really a plan, or even truely the result of conscious thought on her part, she get's a pass on how stupid it is.

 

She doesn't get a pass on not having alternatives in the works, or many other things she has done (or failed to do). But that's another thread.

[AshaShan]

I dont like Egwene but Caemlyn's fate is not her fault. Its Elayne's. By definition if you insist on making yourself the final authority over a nation then anything that happens in that nation is your resonsibility. Basically, the buck stops with the Queen. She could have refused to comply with Egwene's desires but she didn't. Similarly, if Tar Valon gets crushed by the Seanchan while its forces are at Merrilor, that will be Egwene's fault alone. And if the same happens to Tear or Illian - Rand's.

[Durinax]

I dont like Egwene but Caemlyn's fate is not her fault. Its Elayne's. By definition if you insist on making yourself the final authority over a nation then anything that happens in that nation is your resonsibility. Basically, the buck stops with the Queen. She could have refused to comply with Egwene's desires but she didn't. Similarly, if Tar Valon gets crushed by the Seanchan while its forces are at Merrilor, that will be Egwene's fault alone. And if the same happens to Tear or Illian - Rand's.

actually you contradict yourself, rand isnt ruler of either tear, Darlin is, so he cannot be blamed for anythign that happens in tear according to you

[David Selig]

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

[AshaShan]

actually you contradict yourself, rand isnt ruler of either tear, Darlin is, so he cannot be blamed for anythign that happens in tear according to you

 

No I didn't. Rand is the defualt ruler of Tear, Illian and all four of the Borderland kingdoms, since the rulers of those lands have pledged him service as his vassals. Darlin may be King but Rand's is the final authority in Tear.

 

He will also bear responsibility for the destruction of the Borderlands if he doesn't provide support from here on out. Though I wouldn't hold him to account for their current state, since they've only been his vassals for half a day per the end of TOM.

[MasterAblar]

At the moment people are holding Rand responsible for everything and anything bad that happens no matter how ridiculous it is to blame him, so it doesn't really matter what countries he's officialy in charge of.

[Muad Cheade]

1. She knows that Traveling is a possibility, and therefore a danger;

2. She SHOULD know that the Seanchan have taken women who know the traveling weave prisoner. If she doesn't, THAT is Egwene's fault;

3. She knows about Raken and To'Raken;

4. We don't actually know if she knows about the Waygate or not. She might very well.

5. Her borders are with countries not overrun by the Seanchan of the Shadow, which ought to strongly suggest that she show a little more imagination;

6. She has said herself that Caemlyn IS Andor. Border raids are not the danger;

7. All of these points notwithstanding, going might be a risk she had to take, IF there were a compelling reason to do so. There is not.

8. "Wah, wah, others do it too!" is not a defense. Yes, many other leaders have been negligent. Not the Borderlanders; they knew the cost but had that compelling reason that Elayne does not. But Tear and Illian, certainly.

Traveling might be a danger, but how can she guard against it? The Seanchan could potentially attack any part of her country and she can't spread her troops out everywhere - they'd be too thin on the ground to do any good. Gateways allow her to respond rapidly, but she can use them from Merrilor as easily as Caemlyn. She knows about Raken and To'raken, but so what? We have no reason to believe the Waygate is unguarded. Her northern border is with the Caralain Grass, a big, empty region. If the Borderlands fell, the Shadow would have a clear run to Andor. Caemlyn is not Andor - her storyline shows the lie in that old saying. And also, if someone attacks, you generally want to stop them before they get to the important places, like your capital city. There is no benefit to her staying put in Caemlyn. She would be able to do her normal, day to day duties, but would be absent from a summit to decide a course of action at TG. The latter is decidedly more important.

QFT

 

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

 

 

And if he disregards her as he intends to...what can she do?

 

The Steward of Illian and Tear are a lot more scared of the Dragon than the Amyrlin. She knows that, she also knows if push comes to shove the Aiel will support Rand. He is their own blood and their chief, their ties are a lot more than hers to the Aiel. So basically all she is counting on is the support of Rand's lover...er..How stupid of a plan is this?

Rand's reasoning for the Field of Merrilor is to force the nations of the Westlands to agree to the Dragon Peace. However, if he does not have a plan to follow after he would break the seals, no nation would follow him. Darlin's letter alone shows that. The Aiel are not slaves, they have minds of their own and if pushed to a certain place they would leave Rand. Just look at the council of war in tGS. As Nynaeve concludes, without the Aiel, Rand cannot outright force any nation to do his bidding as he did with Tear, Cairhien, and Andor.

 

At the moment people are holding Rand responsible for everything and anything bad that happens no matter how ridiculous it is to blame him, so it doesn't really matter what countries he's officialy in charge of.

Does the same not go for Egwene? Just look at the nature of this and most threads these days,

[randsc]

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

 

Not if Darlin acts on his own. Like by obeying Egwene's summons when he is supposed to be mustering the Tairens, for example.

[AshaShan]

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

 

Not if Darlin acts on his own. Like by obeying Egwene's summons when he is supposed to be mustering the Tairens, for example.

 

Darlin was Rand's appointment. Just as Elayne shouldn't get a free pass for anything Gawyn might do on his own initiative, so too should Rand be said to bear the responsibility for his subordinates actions. IMO, at least, and only on a moral basis. I could easily see a swave political customer like LTT expressing shock and dismay if Tear were to be attacked and dissapointment at the betrayal that made it possible, but I think we all know that if Rand had really wanted to stop the Tairens from being at Merrilor he could have.

[Durinax]

Darlin is King of Tear, but Rand is still in control of Tear and gives him orders, so ultimately it's mostly his responsibility.

 

Not if Darlin acts on his own. Like by obeying Egwene's summons when he is supposed to be mustering the Tairens, for example.

 

Darlin was Rand's appointment. Just as Elayne shouldn't get a free pass for anything Gawyn might do on his own initiative, so too should Rand be said to bear the responsibility for his subordinates actions. IMO, at least, and only on a moral basis. I could easily see a swave political customer like LTT expressing shock and dismay if Tear were to be attacked and dissapointment at the betrayal that made it possible, but I think we all know that if Rand had really wanted to stop the Tairens from being at Merrilor he could have.

rand appointed Darlin as his steward, Darlin was elected King though Rand just didnt oppose it, thus Darlin is the king of Tairen initiative not by apppointment.

So by extention of what you said should egwene not get a free pass for anythign elayne might do of her on initiative? elayne is egwenes subordinate

[AshaShan]

rand appointed Darlin as his steward, Darlin was elected King though Rand just didnt oppose it, thus Darlin is the king of Tairen initiative not by apppointment.

So by extention of what you said should egwene not get a free pass for anythign elayne might do of her on initiative? elayne is egwenes subordinate

 

Darlin swore fealty to Rand, was appointed as Steward and then chosen as King. The fealty part still applies, Steward or King. Egwene herself acknowledges this when she references his loyalty to the man he was sworn to.

 

Elayne, on the other hand, has never sworn any oaths of fealty to the Amyrlin. In fact, Egwene goes on at some length about how wrong it would be of Elaida to have Aes Sedai do just that. Custom might urge Elayne to follow Egwene's lead but there is no legal binding upon her that I'm aware of.

[Mr Ares]

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

And if he disregards her as he intends to...what can she do?

 

The Steward of Illian and Tear are a lot more scared of the Dragon than the Amyrlin. She knows that, she also knows if push comes to shove the Aiel will support Rand. He is their own blood and their chief, their ties are a lot more than hers to the Aiel. So basically all she is counting on is the support of Rand's lover...er..How stupid of a plan is this?

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

 

I dont like Egwene but Caemlyn's fate is not her fault. Its Elayne's. By definition if you insist on making yourself the final authority over a nation then anything that happens in that nation is your resonsibility. Basically, the buck stops with the Queen. She could have refused to comply with Egwene's desires but she didn't. Similarly, if Tar Valon gets crushed by the Seanchan while its forces are at Merrilor, that will be Egwene's fault alone. And if the same happens to Tear or Illian - Rand's.

What difference would it have made if she hadn't complied? She couldn't prevent the invasion. Caemlyn would be attacked, no two ways about it. The information she needed to stop it was in that letter Mat was so busy not opening. Edited July 6, 2011 by Mr Ares

[hazelkrs1]

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

Man that had me rolling "I have Toh"..... good to see another thread where I'm on the same side as you pretty much the whole time. I will say that even though it's not Egwene or Elayne's fault Caemlyn is being attacked, I still don't think gathering all of his armies to try and stop him makes any sense whatsoever. I get that she thinks she needs to convince him not to break the seals, but sacrificing soldiers who will fight in TG to do so? That I don't understand. I mean, why not just gather all his friends and the rulers from around the world? Why do you need their armies? And it's NOT just for intimidation because Egwene even says "I hope Rand doesn't force my hand" That's not really a criticism of the series, just an example of Egwene bein a bit mistaken about something.

[XXX]

 

Rand's reasoning for the Field of Merrilor is to force the nations of the Westlands to agree to the Dragon Peace. However, if he does not have a plan to follow after he would break the seals, no nation would follow him. Darlin's letter alone shows that. The Aiel are not slaves, they have minds of their own and if pushed to a certain place they would leave Rand. Just look at the council of war in tGS. As Nynaeve concludes, without the Aiel, Rand cannot outright force any nation to do his bidding as he did with Tear, Cairhien, and Andor.

 

 

 

Yes to force the nations to agree to the Dragon's peace not whether to break the seals or not...as he says himself at the end, he will break the seals regardless of whatever Egwene says, that is not a matter of discussion.

 

Whether he breaks the seals or not no one including the the great Amyrlin has a choice but to follow him..if you don't follow the dragon the Dark one wins. As you see Rand holds all the cards.

 

The Aiel are not slaves but they and Rand are one blood and he is their chief. Their ties are a lot more than absolutely anything Egwene has with the Aiel.

[XXX]

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

 

He does not plan to rule through fear..he does not plan to rule at all. But he leads the battle against the DO. He does not need anyone's approval on it. There is no discussion on breaking the seal..he is going to whether Egwene wants or not nothing she can do about it...oh even if he breaks the seal without anyone's approval they STILL have to follow him or else the fight is lost. He is not replaceable.

[Mr Ares]

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

 

Man that had me rolling "I have Toh"..... good to see another thread where I'm on the same side as you pretty much the whole time. I will say that even though it's not Egwene or Elayne's fault Caemlyn is being attacked, I still don't think gathering all of his armies to try and stop him makes any sense whatsoever. I get that she thinks she needs to convince him not to break the seals, but sacrificing soldiers who will fight in TG to do so? That I don't understand. I mean, why not just gather all his friends and the rulers from around the world? Why do you need their armies? And it's NOT just for intimidation because Egwene even says "I hope Rand doesn't force my hand" That's not really a criticism of the series, just an example of Egwene bein a bit mistaken about something.

Maybe she feels that he might not listen to the collected rulers and his friends - the armies would then be a backup plan. She doesn't want ot fight him, but will if she feels she has to.

 

 

So Rand plans to rule through fear? Well, that has no chance of coming around to bite him in the arse. All the people sworn to Rand are people with their own minds, capable of forming their own opinions - they won't follow Rand just because they are sworn to him, not becuse he asks them nicely. If Egwene can convince them that Rand's plan puts the fate of the world in danger, do you really believe any of them will follow him? And remember, the car'a'carn is not a Wetlander king. The Aiel won't follow him just because. "Rand, you've destroyed the world." "I have toh."

He does not plan to rule through fear..he does not plan to rule at all. But he leads the battle against the DO. He does not need anyone's approval on it. There is no discussion on breaking the seal..he is going to whether Egwene wants or not nothing she can do about it...oh even if he breaks the seal without anyone's approval they STILL have to follow him or else the fight is lost. He is not replaceable.

Neither are they. He needs their support. He cannot win without them. And if he is not ruling them, then he is in no position to order them. He has nothing to bargain with. If he goes ahead with his "plan" and everyone says no, it is too dangerous, he loses. He cannot force them.

[XXX]

He does not lose..he does not need them to fight the battle at SG. He does not need armies for that. He will do his part with a small no of people he trusts. They will go with him regardless of whether he breaks the seals or not. Egwene is not a part of that. He does not even consider her along with Ny as someone to use Callander with him.

 

The armies have to fight to save their homes..he says it again and again. He can organize them but he cannot fight for them. If they don't fight Trollocs will eat them!!

Edited July 6, 2011 by XXX47

[David Selig]

rand appointed Darlin as his steward, Darlin was elected King though Rand just didnt oppose it, thus Darlin is the king of Tairen initiative not by apppointment.

So by extention of what you said should egwene not get a free pass for anythign elayne might do of her on initiative? elayne is egwenes subordinate

 

Darlin swore fealty to Rand, was appointed as Steward and then chosen as King. The fealty part still applies, Steward or King. Egwene herself acknowledges this when she references his loyalty to the man he was sworn to.

 

Elayne, on the other hand, has never sworn any oaths of fealty to the Amyrlin. In fact, Egwene goes on at some length about how wrong it would be of Elaida to have Aes Sedai do just that. Custom might urge Elayne to follow Egwene's lead but there is no legal binding upon her that I'm aware of.

Tower Law in theory gives the Amyrlin almost unlimited power over the Aes Sedai and openly defying her orders is considered treason. Though in practice the situation is much different and the custom gives the Aes Sedai plenty of ways to evade following the orders of the Amyrlin. And a monarch Aes Sedai would be considered an unique case probably - Elayne at least thinks so.

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself. "

Edited July 6, 2011 by David Selig

[randsc]

He does not lose..he does not need them to fight the battle at SG. He does not need armies for that. He will do his part with a small no of people he trusts. They will go with him regardless of whether he breaks the seals or not. Egwene is not a part of that. He does not even consider her along with Ny as someone to use Callander with him.

 

The armies have to fight to save their homes..he says it again and again. He can organize them but he cannot fight for them. If they don't fight Trollocs will eat them!!

 

 

XXX47 is right about this. Rand does not need those armies, and he won't be bargaining for their support. He'll be bargaining (or forcing, if needed) for their compliance with the Dragon's Peace.

 

If the combined armies say, "No, you must not do this" the impact will be...absolutely nothing. That is what would make Egwene's plan a stupid one, if in fact it were a plan and if in fact she were acting on her on volition.

[Muad Cheade]

So is Rand going to destroy those hordes of Shadowspawn by himself? As well as fight the remaining Forsaken?

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon "win" the War of Power by himself? He wasn't even able to seal the Dark One's prison by himself.

 

Rand is not the Creator. He is not a god. He is needed to win but he also needs others to win. To think anything else is illogical.

[randsc]

So is Rand going to destroy those hordes of Shadowspawn by himself? As well as fight the remaining Forsaken?

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon "win" the War of Power by himself? He wasn't even able to seal the Dark One's prison by himself.

 

Rand is not the Creator. He is not a god. He is needed to win but he also needs others to win. To think anything else is illogical.

 

No, to think anything else is to have read the books.

 

Rand's job is to seal the Dark One away from the world. Rampaging trollocs, while unpleasant I'm sure, do not represent an existential threat to the universe.

 

In order to seal the Dark One away, he will need help. But not from those armies. From a small band (maybe as few as 2) others.

 

The armies need to fight the trollocs, other shadowspawn, Foresaken etc. in order to preserve their own lives and homes. They are not essential to the actual last battle.

 

To think anything else is illogical.

[Muad Cheade]

In the only precedent we have in regards to Tarmon Gai'din, the Dragon (LTT) could not do it by himself.

 

For example, in the case of the champion of the light, when the he/she turns to the Shadow, the Dragon did not win. He merely "drew" according to RJ. Meaning the Dragon cannot win only by himself.

 

The Last Battle has already started...that's why Trollocs seem to come from everywhere.

[MasterAblar]

In the only precedent we have in regards to Tarmon Gai'din, the Dragon (LTT) could not do it by himself.

 

For example, in the case of the champion of the light, when the he/she turns to the Shadow, the Dragon did not win. He merely "drew" according to RJ. Meaning the Dragon cannot win only by himself.

 

The Last Battle has already started...that's why Trollocs seem to come from everywhere.

 

If he has 2 people with him to seal the DO, then he's not doing it alone. The rest of the world doesn't need incentive to fight the trollocs, they'll do that on their own.