Logain´s Pet

[HeronMarkedSoul]

The rape being necessary or not and leaving all that aside what bugs me with Mat is this. If it was rape... then Mat wouldn´t have liked it at all. Sure he jokes around that her hands are everywhere and such but seriously... I imagine Tylin being a little short thing, and Mat of average height. If he wanted couldn´t he just knocked her out or like slapped her and ran away? I know, now I´m assuming that all men are always stronger then women and can overpower him and I know that´s not true. You could also claim that Tylin used her power and authority over Mat to have sex with him, but we don´t get a PoV from Mat being sad, hurt or really torn up by what happened. He seems more flabber gasted that he is the one being chased, and not chasing himself.

 

So to compare that with Morgase were Rahvin had her under Compulsion is not the same at all imo.

mat couldnt have done that due to tylin being a queen and him not having found the bowl yet.

 

in some cases people who have been captured and raped or other violent crimes come to 'love' their capture, kind of making it the best scenario type thing, I think that is what happened

 

Was it really that bad? I mean, developing Stockholm Syndrome. I´ve just read those passages and he can walk almost everywhere he wants. Tylin shows up now and then so he remembers her and all the servants know. But he could leave- if it wasn´t ta´veren stuff I guess... When Tylin threathened him with the marriage knife he could have tried to do something. Frankly I don´t buy it... what I mean buy that is it doesn´t seem to make any sense if it was that bad. Even Morgase tried to fight Rahvin, even though her situation was more hopeless.

 

HeronMarked Soul: Is their upbringing about woman so ingrained in them that they would tolerate anything? That is foolish. I know Rand was that way but Mat struck me as more sensible. I mean if it was all bad, he was raped, and abused wouldn´t he knock her down or atleast try to do something, queen or no queen? Would he really defer to her? And if he did it because he had too, wouldn´t there be some post trauma?

 

Toveine obeying straight away seems like compulsion. Indeed she was lucky that honorable Logain caught her. It could have been much worse.

 

Hah, were I in the situation I'm sure I'd find a way to get her off of me without having to deck her or hurt her in any way. You can restrain or do a lot of things. Of course I like the way Tylin rolls so I doubt I would be kicking her out of bed regardless.

 

As far as the ethics of hitting women in the novels, I do think there were occasions where one of the guys would go too far with it. I can assure you if a woman was trying to kill me or hurt me seriously I would do whatever is necessary. In fact, Rand in particular went waaay too far with it with a certain Forsaken. But I can completely relate to Mr. Jordan's views on this subject since I would certainly never take actual offensive action unless it was life or limb.

[Suttree]

Is their upbringing about woman so ingrained in them that they would tolerate anything? That is foolish. I know Rand was that way but Mat struck me as more sensible. I mean if it was all bad, he was raped, and abused wouldn´t he knock her down or atleast try to do something, queen or no queen?

 

Think it has to do with the trauma of killing his DF Aiel lover. Remember the knife fight in KoD if Tuon hadn't of intervened he may have been killed and he wasn't ready to do anything against the woman he was fighting.

[Puny]

Hah, were I in the situation I'm sure I'd find a way to get her off of me without having to deck her or hurt her in any way. You can restrain or do a lot of things. Of course I like the way Tylin rolls so I doubt I would be kicking her out of bed regardless.

As far as the ethics of hitting women in the novels, I do think there were occasions where one of the guys would go too far with it. I can assure you if a woman was trying to kill me or hurt me seriously I would do whatever is necessary. In fact, Rand in particular went waaay too far with it with a certain Forsaken. But I can completely relate to Mr. Jordan's views on this subject since I would certainly never take actual offensive action unless it was life or limb.

 

Hehe, to each his own. That´s my point. If Mat would feel threathened he would have done something. Sure Tylin was beautiful but I don´t think that was the whole reason. I hesitate to call it rape because in the PoV we got from Mat he was mostly upset that she was chasing him and he wasn´t. He never expressed hate or disgust or anything like that, I think. I don´t think that was a defense mechanism for Mat.

 

I´m sure alot of guys agree with you that they wouldn´t harm a women unless it was life-threatening. I was more thinking of the lines that he firmly pushes her aside or something lol. If we want to make it even more complex maybe we don´t see it as rape cause we know he is a womanizer and sure, we think that Mat of all characters would enjoy women even if they are very forward. And if that is so, then we make less of the situation then if it would be a woman and a King I think. But I don´t think this was RJ´s intention tbh.

 

Think it has to do with the trauma of killing his DF Aiel lover. Remember the knife fight in KoD if Tuon hadn't of intervened he may have been killed and he wasn't ready to do anything against the woman he was fighting.

Hmm that´s true. And wasn´t the DF Aiel lover before he met Tylin also?

[SuperFade]

The Tylin problem always infuriated me. In my mind there's no question that it was rape and that Mat's affection was simply stockholm syndrome. Lets just keep a few things in mind here:

 

1. Mat couldn't just walk away. His participation was vital in finding the Bowl of Winds, and he had promised to take Elayne back to Caemlyn no matter what. After he was moved to the palace, he couldn't leave without offending Tylin and therefore jeopardizing the Supergirl's quest to correct the world's weather. Whilst it is repeatedly mentioned that Tylin is a weak queen, her writ still has meaning within Ebou Dar.

 

2. Tylin clearly used psychological abuse to hound Mat into sleeping with her. She denies him food, going so far as to have the servants taunt him about it. She throws out his clothes and replaces them with ones she likes. She hounds him whenever he is in the palace.

 

3. She threatens him with knives whenever she doesn't get her way. It doesn't matter how beautiful or sexy she is, the fact is that Tylin used the threat of violence and pain to coerce him into a sexual relationship.

 

There's the argument that, if Mat really didn't want to put up with Tylin's abuse, he could have easily kicked her behind and sent her packing. There are a number of reasons against this. Firstly as already stated, Mat and the Supergirls needed Tylin's support for their quest. Secondly, Mat is from the Two Rivers, and has therefore inherited the belief that all women are sacrosanct and must not be harmed, though not to the same extent as Rand. Thirdly, killing his previous lover Melindhra was very traumatic for him and resulted in said belief growing immensely.

 

I don't really think it's in doubt that Mat was coerced into a sexual relationship. If the situation was reversed, with a male ruler imprisoning and extorting sexual favors from one of the Supergirls, the fan outcry would have been immense, particularly if the Supergirl in question began to feel affection towards her rapist. I'm not really sure why Robert Jordan thought it would be a good idea, since the subplot adds nothing to the story. Personally I had no sympathy when Tylin had her head torn off by the Gholam.

[Puny]

The Tylin problem always infuriated me. In my mind there's no question that it was rape and that Mat's affection was simply stockholm syndrome. Lets just keep a few things in mind here:

 

1. Mat couldn't just walk away. His participation was vital in finding the Bowl of Winds, and he had promised to take Elayne back to Caemlyn no matter what. After he was moved to the palace, he couldn't leave without offending Tylin and therefore jeopardizing the Supergirl's quest to correct the world's weather. Whilst it is repeatedly mentioned that Tylin is a weak queen, her writ still has meaning within Ebou Dar.

 

2. Tylin clearly used psychological abuse to hound Mat into sleeping with her. She denies him food, going so far as to have the servants taunt him about it. She throws out his clothes and replaces them with ones she likes. She hounds him whenever he is in the palace.

 

3. She threatens him with knives whenever she doesn't get her way. It doesn't matter how beautiful or sexy she is, the fact is that Tylin used the threat of violence and pain to coerce him into a sexual relationship.

 

There's the argument that, if Mat really didn't want to put up with Tylin's abuse, he could have easily kicked her behind and sent her packing. There are a number of reasons against this. Firstly as already stated, Mat and the Supergirls needed Tylin's support for their quest. Secondly, Mat is from the Two Rivers, and has therefore inherited the belief that all women are sacrosanct and must not be harmed, though not to the same extent as Rand. Thirdly, killing his previous lover Melindhra was very traumatic for him and resulted in said belief growing immensely.

 

I don't really think it's in doubt that Mat was coerced into a sexual relationship. If the situation was reversed, with a male ruler imprisoning and extorting sexual favors from one of the Supergirls, the fan outcry would have been immense, particularly if the Supergirl in question began to feel affection towards her rapist. I'm not really sure why Robert Jordan thought it would be a good idea, since the subplot adds nothing to the story. Personally I had no sympathy when Tylin had her head torn off by the Gholam.

 

That´s a nice summary SuperFade cause I did forget some of the things Tylin did to Mat.

He could have left Ebou Dar and abandonded the quest, making the quest harder for the girls but that was still an option. On the other hand Mat has had a growing sense of responsibility through out the series and I don´t think he would have acted upon it even if he could. Didn´t Tylin say something like if he tried to escape through the city gates the guards would stop him?

 

Hmm... I think maybe I need to rethink my opinion of what happened with Mat and Tylin cause when described like this it doesn´t sound... so very nice.

 

I do think it´s odd then, that there weren´t an outrage that Mat was being treated the way he was. If Logain didn´t bond Toveine but just shielded her and then threatened her with knives, tried to starve her or used the Power to coerse her to have sex with him the fans would have thought it outrageous. But because Mat is a man and Tylin a woman we try to smooth the down the act in question...Maybe a way for Jordan to show how different we view sexual crimes if the offender is a woman,...or not.

[MasterAblar]

Without going into the specifics of what happened, I think the whole thing just wasn't written in particularly horrifying way as you would expect for a rape. It felt like we were just supposed to laugh at Mat and think that he got a taste of his own medicine.

 

The whole thing was clearly harrasement, and the thing with knife is particularly bad looking, but inn the end it seems like it's supposed to appear more funny than dark. Which when taking in all the details, is just weird.

[Puny]

Without going into the specifics of what happened, I think the whole thing just wasn't written in particularly horrifying way as you would expect for a rape. It felt like we were just supposed to laugh at Mat and think that he got a taste of his own medicine.

 

The whole thing was clearly harrasement, and the thing with knife is particularly bad looking, but inn the end it seems like it's supposed to appear more funny than dark. Which when taking in all the details, is just weird.

 

I agree with Master Ablar. I guess that´s why it´s so confusing for me atleast. I don´t know if I should feel sorry for Mat or think that he got a taste of his own medicine. A confusing plotline it is.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

The Tylin problem always infuriated me. In my mind there's no question that it was rape and that Mat's affection was simply stockholm syndrome. Lets just keep a few things in mind here:

 

1. Mat couldn't just walk away. His participation was vital in finding the Bowl of Winds, and he had promised to take Elayne back to Caemlyn no matter what. After he was moved to the palace, he couldn't leave without offending Tylin and therefore jeopardizing the Supergirl's quest to correct the world's weather. Whilst it is repeatedly mentioned that Tylin is a weak queen, her writ still has meaning within Ebou Dar.

 

2. Tylin clearly used psychological abuse to hound Mat into sleeping with her. She denies him food, going so far as to have the servants taunt him about it. She throws out his clothes and replaces them with ones she likes. She hounds him whenever he is in the palace.

 

3. She threatens him with knives whenever she doesn't get her way. It doesn't matter how beautiful or sexy she is, the fact is that Tylin used the threat of violence and pain to coerce him into a sexual relationship.

 

There's the argument that, if Mat really didn't want to put up with Tylin's abuse, he could have easily kicked her behind and sent her packing. There are a number of reasons against this. Firstly as already stated, Mat and the Supergirls needed Tylin's support for their quest. Secondly, Mat is from the Two Rivers, and has therefore inherited the belief that all women are sacrosanct and must not be harmed, though not to the same extent as Rand. Thirdly, killing his previous lover Melindhra was very traumatic for him and resulted in said belief growing immensely.

 

I don't really think it's in doubt that Mat was coerced into a sexual relationship. If the situation was reversed, with a male ruler imprisoning and extorting sexual favors from one of the Supergirls, the fan outcry would have been immense, particularly if the Supergirl in question began to feel affection towards her rapist. I'm not really sure why Robert Jordan thought it would be a good idea, since the subplot adds nothing to the story. Personally I had no sympathy when Tylin had her head torn off by the Gholam.

 

Oh come now, let's not go too overboard with this. This is a completely different culture, albeit fictional. Keep in mind that everything that happened to Mat he believed had something to do with his being Ta'veren. So he was letting things take their course.

 

I liked Tylin and if there was any malice or evil within her Mat would have sensed it and acted accordingly. I certainly disagree with you about being happy that the Gholam murdered her. She was just a misguided woman used to getting her own way.

 

Personally I felt the whole Perrin/Berelain thing was much more egregious. There was a woman who wouldn't leave a married man alone after he said no ad nauseum. She spread rumors and did all kinds of crap including inciting his wife and talking smack to her. She did that stuff even while Faile was a prisoner.

 

I like a strong-willed woman so I actually loved both of these characters, Berelain especially. Remember we're talking about farmboys who just left the farm, if they were grown men with some experience with women, much of this would have been headed off at the pass.

[SuperFade]

I don't understand why I should find the Mat-Tylin interactions funny. It would have been funny to have Tylin be just overbearing and agressive towards Mat, but I think trapping him in the palace and threatening him with knives went too far and pushed the situation into abuse. It's not really Mat 'getting a taste of his own medicine' either; he may be a rogue but he never goes to the extremes Tylin does to trip someone into bed.

 

The argument that it's just Ebou Dari culture at work doesn't really work when you consider that even Beslan was uncomfortable with how far his mother was going. Admittedly, men have no power whatsoever in Ebou Dar, what with the marriage knives and everything, but Mat is not Ebou Dari and should not have been subjected to such things. Culture clashes are a key feature of the WoTverse, but in my opinion this goes significantly beyond that. Then again, Ebou Dari culture is another thing I dislike so take it as you will.

 

Also, how did that have to do with him being Ta'veren? If you mean the dice rolling in his head, that had to do with finding the Bowl of Winds. I cannot fathom how letting Tylin do what she did helped in that, though if anyone can provide a quote I'll happily admit I'm wrong. If Robert Jordan did indeed intend for us to find it funny, he shouldn't have put in all that psychological abuse, ie. Tylin denying mat food and undressing him at knifepoint.

 

I know I seem to be harping on about this but the Tylin subplot was one of the few things about WoT that struck me as incredibly out of place and ill-advised from a writing perspective. If it was intended to be funny then it just shows up as Robert Jordan embracing a double standard in the name of comedy.

[RyanL24]

I think it was intended to be Mat getting his own medicine, because of the part where Elayne yells at him for "forcing himself" upon a queen or something to that effect. He blushes and quietly explains that the situation is reversed.

 

 

 

I understand Mat was in a delicate situation with a queen. You can't hit her, you'll be hanged. You can insult her too much, you'll be imprisoned. If Mat wanted out of the situation, I think he could have used words to escape. Something like "Sorry, you're old and you turn me off." Only maybe a litte more delicate. Sure he protested, but it seemed more like prostesting just to prostest.

 

 

 

I think it all comes down to this. If you are a guy, it is really really hard to get raped (in the way Mat was, I'm not talking about if you get sent to prison). Because you need to have an erection. I've never had sex at knife point, but I would imagine if you felt that threatened you wouldn't be able to perform that well.

 

 

Tylin sent Mat a note saying how very well he performed. I got the feeling it lasted a really long time. She thought it might be his being Ta'veren. So the way I see it, if you're doing it well enough to impress a queen, you're not getting raped.

 

 

She cut him off from food. That was pretty messed up. I believe that if he really wanted to get some food, he would have been able to do so. Without humping for it. He's Ta'veren.

[Suttree]

I think it all comes down to this. If you are a guy, it is really really hard to get raped (in the way Mat was, I'm not talking about if you get sent to prison). Because you need to have an erection. I've never had sex at knife point, but I would imagine if you felt that threatened you wouldn't be able to perform that well.

 

 

This topic has been covered numerous times in diff threads. Dont really want to get into but need to clear this up. I recall a great post from Luckers showing the above statement is completely false. According to studies a great deal of the shame men feel after they have been raped comes from the fact that their body reacted to stimulation.

 

As for Mat getting a taste of his own medicine he is very clear about only chasing women that want to be chased. We never see him push his attentions on someone who says no.

[SuperFade]

I think it was intended to be Mat getting his own medicine, because of the part where Elayne yells at him for "forcing himself" upon a queen or something to that effect. He blushes and quietly explains that the situation is reversed.

 

If that is the case then I believe Robert Jordan failed in his objective. Mat would never do any of the things Tylin did to get a member of the opposite sex into bed. Then Elayne goes even further and laughs at his misfortune.

 

 

I understand Mat was in a delicate situation with a queen. You can't hit her, you'll be hanged. You can insult her too much, you'll be imprisoned. If Mat wanted out of the situation, I think he could have used words to escape. Something like "Sorry, you're old and you turn me off." Only maybe a litte more delicate. Sure he protested, but it seemed more like prostesting just to prostest.

 

He tried to protest directly, and she pulled a knife on him. He went out of his way to avoid her, and she denies him food. He locks his door to try and get away from her, so she gets a spare and harasses him further. Mat was trying to be tactful in his refusal of her advances, since he and the Supergirls are there as her guests and they need her support to search for the Bowl of Winds. By the time she drew a knife on him, there was no way he could have used words to escape.

 

 

I think it all comes down to this. If you are a guy, it is really really hard to get raped (in the way Mat was, I'm not talking about if you get sent to prison). Because you need to have an erection. I've never had sex at knife point, but I would imagine if you felt that threatened you wouldn't be able to perform that well.

 

It's not hard at all. Putting things delicately, a man can get hard with enough stimulation whether or not he wants to. Robert Jordan was always very tongue-in-cheek with his sex scenes, so we don't know exactly how things went down, but arguing that a man cannot be raped in that fashion is simply untrue. It's indicative of the sadly prevailing belief that rape is only a problem for women and that men cannot be raped due to their anatomy.

 

 

Tylin sent Mat a note saying how very well he performed. I got the feeling it lasted a really long time. She thought it might be his being Ta'veren. So the way I see it, if you're doing it well enough to impress a queen, you're not getting raped.

 

As mentioned before, we don't know what happened. And I'd like to know the logic in the last sentence. It doesn't matter how impressed she was, Mat didn't want to have sex with her in the first place.

 

 

She cut him off from food. That was pretty messed up. I believe that if he really wanted to get some food, he would have been able to do so. Without humping for it. He's Ta'veren.

 

Him being Ta'veren means nothing in this instance. Ta'veren does not mean that he gets everything he wants or needs. It's a self-correction device for the Pattern, something he has no control over. In addition, Mat couldn't leave the palace. Tylin took care of that, and even if he had tried to run it would have put the Supergirl's plans into jeopardy by offending the Queen.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I'm just relieved that Suttee confirmed my reading of the passage in question, thus reassuring me that I am not a pervert who sees sex everywhere.

 

Or at least, that if I am such a pervert, I'm not alone.

 

 

it's definitely not just you. there's no other thing the passage in question could possibly mean. it's right there in black and white. the guy gets the girl. . . erm. . . PG13, PG13. . . happy. . . and the girl is hooked. the meaning is not hidden.

 

 

 

. . . and speaking of overthinking things - mat didn't have stockholm syndrome. if mat was an actual person who was actually assaulted, then maybe he might have developed stockhom syndrome.

 

but mat's a fictional character in a series of fictional books, and the tylin story was not intended to illustrate the horror of an actual sexual assault. it was one of many of the author's sexual fantasies that got put into the WOT, along with the wide expanses of bosoms, and the countless spankings, and all the bondage, and the three women who fall in love with one guy and insist on sharing him no matter what he wants, really, and the adorable, perky, junior AS running around the dorms in the WT in white shifts making pillow friends because yeah, that's what really happens in dorms and convents, and the nekkid lady rituals, and all the rest.

 

in mat's case, RJ was writing about a powerful, older woman having her way with a young rascal, and the young rascal ending up kinda liking it, though he'd never admit it. it's a cold wind in august. and you're all 30 years too young to get that, so skip it.

 

but it's not real life. we are not mandated reporters. mat's OK. he is not emotionally scarred, and he will not require therapy to get over the ordeal, except maybe the part where tylin gets murdered, cause i'm sure he's meant to feel bad about that.

 

this series isn't a documentary or a PSA, and these things didn't really happen to anybody, and the author's intent is what it is. naughty, but not an afterschool special about sexual assault.

 

oh, just skip the whole thing. carry on with the deconstruction.

[SuperFade]

but it's not real life. we are not mandated reporters. mat's OK. he is not emotionally scarred, and he will not require therapy to get over the ordeal, except maybe the part where tylin gets murdered, cause i'm sure he's meant to feel bad about that.

 

this series isn't a documentary or a PSA, and these things didn't really happen to anybody, and the author's intent is what it is. naughty, but not an afterschool special about sexual assault.

 

One could say that about the entire WoT series. About any piece of fiction. We discuss it because it's interesting, or controversial, or because we don't understand it or because we want to make sense of it. The fact that it isn't real doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

but it's not real life. we are not mandated reporters. mat's OK. he is not emotionally scarred, and he will not require therapy to get over the ordeal, except maybe the part where tylin gets murdered, cause i'm sure he's meant to feel bad about that.

 

this series isn't a documentary or a PSA, and these things didn't really happen to anybody, and the author's intent is what it is. naughty, but not an afterschool special about sexual assault.

 

One could say that about the entire WoT series. About any piece of fiction. We discuss it because it's interesting, or controversial, or because we don't understand it or because we want to make sense of it. The fact that it isn't real doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.

 

 

i wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't discuss it. i was suggesting that you're misinterpreting it, and giving it a meaning that the author did not intend. if that's what you want to do, that's your call. that's what i meant by "carry on."

 

and i do say that about all fiction. i don't read mark twain and say he must be a KKK member because he uses words that in my society would most likely be used by KKK members and such. i try to understand what the author intended, instead of deconstructing his work as if it sprang from the ether without his participation. if you like to deconstruct, and you know that's what you're doing, feel free. actually, feel free whether you know that's what you're doing or not.

 

you must find all the B&D and spankings and naked hazing rituals to be sexual assaults as well. if i did, i wouldn't be able to make myself read these books. but that's just me.

[David Selig]

The whole Mat Tylin situation in ACOS is so strange. On one hand, mat is aaparently really uncomfortable and unhappy with her increasingly forceful attempts of sexual harassment. On the other hand, he didn't even consider telling her "Your majesty, I happen to be the closest childhood friend of the Dragon Reborn, and he won't like to hear that I've been harassed like that, so please give it a rest already". And he had Aes Sedai to back him on that.

[Tiinker]

I thought it was love. Haha silly me..

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think it was meant to be, of a sort. sorry if i missed any intended sarcasm. i'm just never sure.

[Puny]

I think this is taking things abit too far.

Sorry for bolded, I suck at boxes.

 

 

it's definitely not just you. there's no other thing the passage in question could possibly mean. it's right there in black and white. the guy gets the girl. . . erm. . . PG13, PG13. . . happy. . . and the girl is hooked. the meaning is not hidden.

 

. . . and speaking of overthinking things - mat didn't have stockholm syndrome. if mat was an actual person who was actually assaulted, then maybe he might have developed stockhom syndrome.

 

but mat's a fictional character in a series of fictional books, and the tylin story was not intended to illustrate the horror of an actual sexual assault. it was one of many of the author's sexual fantasies that got put into the WOT, along with the wide expanses of bosoms, and the countless spankings, and all the bondage, and the three women who fall in love with one guy and insist on sharing him no matter what he wants, really, and the adorable, perky, junior AS running around the dorms in the WT in white shifts making pillow friends because yeah, that's what really happens in dorms and convents, and the nekkid lady rituals, and all the rest.

 

Oki first of all we don´t know that all of the nakedness and sex and w/e is mirroring the authors sexual fantasies. We have been through this before. An author writing about an sexual act doesn´t mean he/she enjoys said act. I´ve read the Black Jewels Trilogy by Anne Bishop. There are more vivid/graphic descriptions of sex/abuse/rape then you could claim in WoT. That doesn´t mean that Anne gets turned on to put magical cockrings on every male and use them as slaves. It´s fiction but to claim that nothing can illustrate a horror of an actual sexual assualt because it is fiction is imo false. In the use of spankings if we look at the AS I´m not in the least surprised because AS culture is in bits inspired by the covenants for nun and physical dicispline was used (and in homes for oprhanged children. In some areas/lands until our moderns days. Rand loves all thre women and he wants them too. His initial reaction was understandable because he was raised in a socitey were polyamorous relationship were frowned upon. Pillow friends was also a historical fact in the convents, in certain armies between men and so on and so forth. We also have the illegal examples but that´s another case. And where is the bondage. Show me please, I want to read it!

 

in mat's case, RJ was writing about a powerful, older woman having her way with a young rascal, and the young rascal ending up kinda liking it, though he'd never admit it. it's a cold wind in august. and you're all 30 years too young to get that, so skip it.

 

but it's not real life. we are not mandated reporters. mat's OK. he is not emotionally scarred, and he will not require therapy to get over the ordeal, except maybe the part where tylin gets murdered, cause i'm sure he's meant to feel bad about that.

 

this series isn't a documentary or a PSA, and these things didn't really happen to anybody, and the author's intent is what it is. naughty, but not an afterschool special about sexual assault. Neither your nor I know the author´s intent if he hasn´t specifically said so. We speculate. And even when we do know his intent doesn´t mean we percieve it as such .

 

oh, just skip the whole thing. carry on with the deconstruction.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if i have to show you the bondage, i don't think we're reading the same books. how many ways do people get tied up in this series? bent double, and backwards, and inside out. tethered with leashes, and with the power, adn with. . . seriously, you don't see bondage? this surprises me, but OK, whatever.

 

and i think it's fair to say after the 10th, or 50th, or 150th spanking, written in vivid detail, and with obvious relish, that we can safely assume the author was into it.

 

if you really think the author's intent was to describe rape, and stockholm syndrome, with mat, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

it's just that you've stated exactly the opposite when responding to . . . well, pretty much anyone else, actually. right up thread.

 

but that's fine, too.

[SuperFade]

i wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't discuss it. i was suggesting that you're misinterpreting it, and giving it a meaning that the author did not intend. if that's what you want to do, that's your call. that's what i meant by "carry on."

 

and i do say that about all fiction. i don't read mark twain and say he must be a KKK member because he uses words that in my society would most likely be used by KKK members and such. i try to understand what the author intended, instead of deconstructing his work as if it sprang from the ether without his participation. if you like to deconstruct, and you know that's what you're doing, feel free. actually, feel free whether you know that's what you're doing or not.

 

you must find all the B&D and spankings and naked hazing rituals to be sexual assaults as well. if i did, i wouldn't be able to make myself read these books. but that's just me.

 

Couldn't the same be said of your interpretation that it was RJ's personal fetish? Who are you to say that something is being misinterpreted? Unless RJ himself said something on the matter then it is open to interpretation. You say that I'm deconstructing, and I'd like to know just what that means because as far as I can see it's what everyone on the entire forum does regarding all the debates and arguments that go on.

 

As for the naked rituals and such, that's a different matter. In the case of naked rituals, they were entered into willingly enough that I can overlook their inclusion as a form of fanservice. Nobody forced the girls to undress, they did it of their own will. The spanking is more difficult to explain, but even so it doesn't come close to the Tylin problem.

 

The problem for me is that all the other examples of what may be RJ's own preferences bleeding through into the narrative are relatively low-key. They may be mildly objectionable to some but I personally can overlook them due to their infrequency and arguable purpose in the story (Rituals = Symbolism/test of character, Spanking = enforcing discipline). The Mat-Tylin relationship took up an entire subplot, was explicitly not consensual and served no discernable purpose with regards to the plot. It was just gratuitous.

[Puny]

if i have to show you the bondage, i don't think we're reading the same books. how many ways do people get tied up in this series? bent double, and backwards, and inside out. tethered with leashes, and with the power, adn with. . . seriously, you don't see bondage? this surprises me, but OK, whatever.

 

and i think it's fair to say after the 10th, or 50th, or 150th spanking, written in vivid detail, and with obvious relish, that we can safely assume the author was into it.

 

if you really think the author's intent was to describe rape, and stockholm syndrome, with mat, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

it's just that you've stated exactly the opposite when responding to . . . well, pretty much anyone else, actually. right up thread.

 

but that's fine, too.

 

I´m saying that things aren´t that simple. And I stated that I don´t really know how I feel because the passage imo shows Mat being uncomfortable about it, but then taking it very lightly.

 

The examples you referenced to are NOT bondage. Just because you have a rope and tie someone up doesn´t mean it´s bondage in any way, shape or form. Neither is the intention of those who tie those people up to get to the states that bondage does induce in those being tied up. But as I said... that´s for another topic.

 

How many spankings have we seen in vivid detail? I can´t for my remember a Asha´man pulling a woman down, ripping her panties off, and starting to spanking her, she kicking and screaming, redness yadayada. At most they couldn´t sit, or were sore or something to that extent, and that isn´t very vivid. So what if he does it with obvious relish? Why is that wrong?

I do think the author´s intent was to describe sexual assualt, stockholm syndrome.. not so sure.

 

I am entitled to my opinon.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

 

Couldn't the same be said of your interpretation that it was RJ's personal fetish? Who are you to say that something is being misinterpreted? Unless RJ himself said something on the matter then it is open to interpretation. You say that I'm deconstructing, and I'd like to know just what that means because as far as I can see it's what everyone on the entire forum does regarding all the debates and arguments that go on.

 

As for the naked rituals and such, that's a different matter. In the case of naked rituals, they were entered into willingly enough that I can overlook their inclusion as a form of fanservice. Nobody forced the girls to undress, they did it of their own will. The spanking is more difficult to explain, but even so it doesn't come close to the Tylin problem.

 

The problem for me is that all the other examples of what may be RJ's own preferences bleeding through into the narrative are relatively low-key. They may be mildly objectionable to some but I personally can overlook them due to their infrequency and arguable purpose in the story (Rituals = Symbolism/test of character, Spanking = enforcing discipline). The Mat-Tylin relationship took up an entire subplot, was explicitly not consensual and served no discernable purpose with regards to the plot. It was just gratuitous.

 

(infrequency of spankings, naked rituals, bondage. . . seriously? okie dokie. . . .)

 

anyway, it surely could be said of my interpretation, as you have just proven by saying it.

 

as for who am i to say something is a misinterpretation - i am someone who, just like you, is entitled to state my opinion, as you have. i really don't get how something so obvious to me (the "personal fetish" thing - and obvious to many others, if you look anywhere outside a fan forum, but don't bother, really) is not obvious to anyone who reads these books, but you have also proven this to be the case. as someone in another fan forum said, i'm not going to quote the whole series for you to prove this point. feel free, once again, to think and say what you want. i believe that you are mistaken, and i will feel free to continue to believe that.

 

as for what deconstructionism is, ask someone you respect. that is obviously not me.

 

i'm not even going to go there with the way you choose to interpret the apparent sexual harassment and abuse of other characters in the books (under our society's, and our day and age's definition, instead of the WOT's definition - kind of my whole point, but as always, skip it) vs. the way you choose to interpret the tylin thing. ok, i did go there, but it won't make any difference at all, so i might as well not have.

 

 

once again, carry on.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if i have to show you the bondage, i don't think we're reading the same books. how many ways do people get tied up in this series? bent double, and backwards, and inside out. tethered with leashes, and with the power, adn with. . . seriously, you don't see bondage? this surprises me, but OK, whatever.

 

and i think it's fair to say after the 10th, or 50th, or 150th spanking, written in vivid detail, and with obvious relish, that we can safely assume the author was into it.

 

if you really think the author's intent was to describe rape, and stockholm syndrome, with mat, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

it's just that you've stated exactly the opposite when responding to . . . well, pretty much anyone else, actually. right up thread.

 

but that's fine, too.

 

... I am entitled to my opinon.

 

 

yes, as i've said, see, i bolded it. and i've said it before.

 

i'm calling a unilateral cease fire with you. you do as you like.

[MasterAblar]

Geesh people, relax.

 

Go to a "insult Egwene thread", it'll make you feel better.