Aes Sedai guidance?

[XXX]

The Aes Sedai keeps talking about how they have to guide the Dragon..but they know absolutely nothing about what the Dragon is supposed to do other than some rudimentary knowledge of the "Karaethon Cycle"..Moraine did not know that Rand had to go the Aiel, she advised against coming out of the waste etc. They had no knowledge about the Forsaken nor did they know anything about how to teach Rand to use saiden.

 

Now Egwene the new Amyrlin has no idea what to do with the seals or how to approach the Last Battle but she still wants to "guide" the dragon.

Such epic uselessness and delusion cannot even be fathomed.

[MasterAblar]

Old habits are hard to break. I think Moiraine said it best. The aes sedai made the world dance to their tune for so long that they're having a hard time dancing to another's tune. In other words: they don't like not being in control.

[Suttree]

The Aes Sedai keeps talking about how they have to guide the Dragon..but they know absolutely nothing about what the Dragon is supposed to do other than some rudimentary knowledge of the "Karaethon Cycle"..Moraine did not know that Rand had to go the Aiel, she advised against coming out of the waste etc. They had no knowledge about the Forsaken nor did they know anything about how to teach Rand to use saiden.

 

Now Egwene the new Amyrlin has no idea what to do with the seals or how to approach the Last Battle but she still wants to "guide" the dragon.

Such epic uselessness and delusion cannot even be fathomed.

 

 

1. How would any woman ever know how to teach a man about Saidin? It is impossible.

 

2. They have quiet a bit of knowledge on the Forsaken as evidenced throughout the books, most recently in relation to the research Egwene had them do on how to best face Mesanna.

 

3. Who in the world outside of the wast possibly knew the Aiel were the "People of the Dragon"? Like it or not the AS remain as one of the most qualified groups to help the Dragon deal with TG. With how beat down they have been from The Forsaken, BA, Fain's influence, and the Seanchan attack(on top of their own failures) I'm willing to wager there is some redemption in store for the lot of them in AMoL.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

[XXX]

The Aes Sedai keeps talking about how they have to guide the Dragon..but they know absolutely nothing about what the Dragon is supposed to do other than some rudimentary knowledge of the "Karaethon Cycle"..Moraine did not know that Rand had to go the Aiel, she advised against coming out of the waste etc. They had no knowledge about the Forsaken nor did they know anything about how to teach Rand to use saiden.

 

Now Egwene the new Amyrlin has no idea what to do with the seals or how to approach the Last Battle but she still wants to "guide" the dragon.

Such epic uselessness and delusion cannot even be fathomed.

 

 

1. How would any woman ever know how to teach a man about Saidin? It is impossible.

 

2. They have quiet a bit of knowledge on the Forsaken as evidenced throughout the books, most recently in relation to the research Egwene had them do on how to best face Mesanna.

 

3. Who in the world outside of the wast possibly knew the Aiel were the "People of the Dragon"? Like it or not the AS remain as one of the most qualified groups to help the Dragon deal with TG. With how beat down they have been from The Forsaken, BA, Fain's influence, and the Seanchan attack(on top of their own failures) I'm willing to wager there is some redemption in store for the lot of them in AMoL.

 

 

"help" is not the same as guide...guide means that the AS know more than the Dragon. As we have learnt they knew and still know nothing about what to do at the LB.

 

So when they keep lamenting upon the fact(Egwene included) that they are not "guiding" the Dragon, it does not make any sense as they do not know anything!!

[rand4747]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

 

Actually not quite, she knew that the he had to be free, if he was in danger of being turned or captured she would kill him.

[rand4747]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

 

Actually not quite, she knew that the he had to be free, if he was in danger of being turned or captured she would kill him. She plainly told him in The Eye of The World what she would do, and being Aes Sedai you know its true.

 

 

Oops sorry about that, meant to edit again

[Suttree]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

Not sure we can say the point is correct, Moiraine located and did an excellent job of guiding him. Without her the LB would already be lost...

[MasterAblar]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

Not sure we can say the point is correct, Moiraine located and did an excellent job of guiding him. Without her the LB would already be lost...

 

I don't remember her doing much guiding once Rand became the Dragon Reborn. She herself said that she "danced to his tune".

[David Selig]

Well, the Dragon Reborn is a barely educated teenaged village boy from the backend of nowhere, of course they though he needed guidance. How could they know he'd stumble to his success mostly due to pure luck and memory leaks from LTT?

[Suttree]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

Not sure we can say the point is correct, Moiraine located and did an excellent job of guiding him. Without her the LB would already be lost...

 

I don't remember her doing much guiding once Rand became the Dragon Reborn. She herself said that she "danced to his tune".

 

How would Rand have ever gotten from the TR to become the DR w/out her guidance? Also even after she was obvs caught up in his Ta'Veren nature, she still shaped events. Knew Asmodean was his teacher, keeping tabs on the situation instead of interfering and guiding events to the docks to take out Lanfear. It is pretty ridiculous to downplay her importance in the events that shaped him.

[Kahsm]

That's like saying someone's a bad soccer coach if they can't tell a player exactly the path to run down the field in order to score before play actually starts. The field isn't pre-determined, a coach uses their knowledge of how the game is played to try to avoid losing by giving general advice and yelling out plays on the fly based on what others are doing. That's all the Aes Sedai can do. And while they don't know this particular Dragon game inside and out, they're still more knowledgeable than any other team.

[SuperFade]

I think it's a combination of factors.

 

Firstly, as many have said, Aes Sedai are used to being in control. For better or worse they always try to take charge in any situation they find themselves in, and the rebirth of the Dragon is no different.

 

Secondly, there's the fact that the Dragon Reborn is prophecised to be a destructive saviour, breaking the world again as he did once before. It's only common sense to attempt to reduce the damage he might potentially cause, and that would be best accomplished by having Aes Sedai around him at all times to make sure the destruction is as limited as possible.

 

Thirdly, despite their repeated failures and shortcomings, the White Tower is still the most prestigious institution in the Westlands. It contains far and away the largest repository of knowledge that could potentially be useful to the Dragon Reborn. Whilst many Aes Sedai doubtless want to control Rand because of their manipulative nature, it would be fair to say that they are still in the best position to help him through to the Last Battle.

 

I also become frustrated with Aes Sedai insisting on 'guiding' the Dragon, but if you strip away the blatant control-freak aspect of it you find that they really are in the best position to help Rand with their knowledge. Whether they would go about it in that fashion however...

[Guest PiotrekS]

The point is obviously correct - Aes Sedai have always very much wanted to "guide" him, but had absolutely no idea where he should go or what he should do.

 

I think that at first they envisaged the DR sitting in the WT, always shielded, getting some little information on the Last Battle the Aes Sedai knew and decided to share with him. I don't have to say what would be the results of this.

 

Aes Sedai are extremely slow learners in WOT, unfortunately. We see Egwene now thinking along the same lines, despite having no more idea what really should be done than Moiraine, Siuan or Elaida had. At least Moiraine knew that she had to keep the DR alive.

 

 

Actually not quite, she knew that the he had to be free, if he was in danger of being turned or captured she would kill him.

 

True, I should have said "she wanted to keep him alive and on the Light side".

 

 

Not sure we can say the point is correct, Moiraine located and did an excellent job of guiding him. Without her the LB would already be lost...

Moiraine played an extremaly important part, I absolutely agree. But playing important role and "guiding" are two distinct things - she helped him and protected him, but hardly "guided" him at all, maybe apart from tEotW where she decided to take him to the Eye. Guiding requires deep understanding of the situation and Aes Sedai were almost as ignorant as Rand in the beginning.

 

Look at Moirane's and Siuan's plans for Rand - almost nothing of them worked out, things which turned out to be necessary (Aiel, taking the Stone, LTT memories, the Cleansing...) weren't in these plans at all! Aes Sedai would help now and then (Cadsuane, Moiraine, Verin), but they definitely weren't the "guiding force". They were as helpless and ignorant as everybody else when the winds of destiny began to blow.

 

Well, the Dragon Reborn is a barely educated teenaged village boy from the backend of nowhere, of course they though he needed guidance. How could they know he'd stumble to his success mostly due to pure luck and memory leaks from LTT?

They were better educated, but still they didn't really know what was necessary to be done. In fact, Aes Sedai were as ignorant as Rand was in that regard.

And I think "pure luck" hardly even exists in WOT, where everything is part of the pattern.

 

How would Rand have ever gotten from the TR to become the DR w/out her guidance? Also even after she was obvs caught up in his Ta'Veren nature, she still shaped events. Knew Asmodean was his teacher, keeping tabs on the situation instead of interfering and guiding events to the docks to take out Lanfear. It is pretty ridiculous to downplay her importance in the events that shaped him.

 

She helped to shape him and keep him alive. To say that she hardly "guided him" is not downplaying her importance.She was important but not in the way she and Siuan had envisaged - they didn't guide him, they were simply two of the people who helped him.

 

To take your examples, she didn't interfere with Asmodean, but also it wasn't her idea to use him and it wasn't her who made it possible. What happened in the docks was shown to her in Rhuidean, it wasn't her plan from the beginning. It seems that the Wheel guided Moiraine rather than Moiraine guided Rand to the docks (and I'm not trying to diminish her awesomness btw).

[Goldstar]

Moiraine guided Rand, just not the way she planned. She guided him out of the Two Rivers, she guided him to the Eye, she guided him to Collandor, she guided him to declare himself the Dragon. After that, she became more of an advisor than a guide. As far as Siuan goes, she interacted with the Dragon indirectly, by guiding the Harem and Egwene.

[anotherfingolfin]

Thirdly, despite their repeated failures and shortcomings, the White Tower is still the most prestigious institution in the Westlands. It contains far and away the largest repository of knowledge that could potentially be useful to the Dragon Reborn. Whilst many Aes Sedai doubtless want to control Rand because of their manipulative nature, it would be fair to say that they are still in the best position to help him through to the Last Battle.

 

I also become frustrated with Aes Sedai insisting on 'guiding' the Dragon, but if you strip away the blatant control-freak aspect of it you find that they really are in the best position to help Rand with their knowledge. Whether they would go about it in that fashion however...

 

Yes, the repository of knowledge sounds great. Except how many times in the series have we seen that repository made use of? Have we even seen one AS in the tower, even Brown, go around, actively searching for some answer to TG? Since it really hasn't been highlighted enough, I don't think it can be given too much weight at this point.

 

I don't doubt that they are the best placed to help him. The incessant usage of the word 'guide', however, has other connotations. Help, Zen Rand says, would have been nice, and he has been a fool not to seek it out. Guide implies too much of a senior-junior dynamic.

Moiraine undoubtedly guided him in the begining. When he was totally green and still had to establish himself. After that his need for a guide eroded. He did stuff his own way. He got certain results. You can argue that you don't agree with all his decisions etc, but he certainly was not floundering by the middle of the series, that he had need of a 'guide'. Advisers yes, which he did have.

Later in the series, his capabilities have grown such that it becomes pretty apparent that there isn't anybody even remotely qualified enough to 'guide' him. The Aes Sedai in general have, by the later books, shown to be less than awe-inspiring.

 

One can excuse the AS due to their inherent arrogance/ignorance early on in the series. Admittedly, Rand was an unknown quantity, and for all anybody knew, just a bumpkin. Later on though, Rand has proven himself, and this whole 'guide' thing becomes ridiculous, from Egwene in particular. She knows him and his capabilities better than most AS. She has no reason to think him any more of an ignorant bumpkin than she is. She cannot claim years of experience and accumulated knowledge as some justification to want to guide. Heck, most of all, she has not lived centuries of having the world dance to her tune, so that habit should not have dug in deep.

 

Once again, the key is difference between help and guide. 'Guide' is like Yoda/Obi-wan or Gandalf. 'Help' is a decidedly secondray position.

[Suttree]

Yes, the repository of knowledge sounds great. Except how many times in the series have we seen that repository made use of? Have we even seen one AS in the tower, even Brown, go around, actively searching for some answer to TG? Since it really hasn't been highlighted enough, I don't think it can be given too much weight at this point.

 

We know Moriaine spent a good deal of time studying the prophecies and others such as Gitara and Tamra made use of the repository. We see Adeleas and Vandene help research info about the Seanchan, prophecies and other things linked to the DR. Verin undoubtedly used it in her mission and most recently Egwene had people researching the Forsaken. In addition to those examples it has been mentioned off hand a number of times but you would think it would have played a much larger role...

[XXX]

That's like saying someone's a bad soccer coach if they can't tell a player exactly the path to run down the field in order to score before play actually starts. The field isn't pre-determined, a coach uses their knowledge of how the game is played to try to avoid losing by giving general advice and yelling out plays on the fly based on what others are doing. That's all the Aes Sedai can do. And while they don't know this particular Dragon game inside and out, they're still more knowledgeable than any other team.

 

 

What if the player knows the game a lot more than the coach..does the coach(self assumed position in this instance) still try to "guide" him?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

That's like saying someone's a bad soccer coach if they can't tell a player exactly the path to run down the field in order to score before play actually starts. The field isn't pre-determined, a coach uses their knowledge of how the game is played to try to avoid losing by giving general advice and yelling out plays on the fly based on what others are doing. That's all the Aes Sedai can do. And while they don't know this particular Dragon game inside and out, they're still more knowledgeable than any other team.

 

 

What if the player knows the game a lot more than the coach..does the coach(self assumed position in this instance) still try to "guide" him?

 

That begs the question. Does the player know more than the coach? Because the player doesn't know how to win the game (ie. Seal the Dark One) at all. He's asking someone else (ie. Min) for help.

[XXX]

He knows more than the AS..and the AS do not even know what he does not know.

[Apple13]

He knows more than the AS..and the AS do not even know what he does not know.

 

Not necessarily. Rand has figured out by now how to defeat the Dark One once and for all, but that was after like 11 books of development. And while he did, through his memories as Lews Therin, know quite a bit of info on the forsaken etc., the Aes Sedai still have other info they can give him. They don't know everything he knows. But he doesn't know everything they know either.

 

He (and Mat and Perrin) needed Aes Sedai guidance in the beginning (in the form of Moiraine). They don't really need it so much now, but that doesn't mean the Aes Sedai don't have any help worth giving.

[XXX]

As told many times here "helper" is a secondary position. It is not the same as "guidance" which is what Egwene and the rest of the delusional AS think they need to goive the Dragon. They are not equal to the Dragon.

 

What exactly do they know at this point which Rand does not know? They do not want him to break the seals..which in itself is the wrong way to go.

[Apple13]

As told many times here "helper" is a secondary position. It is not the same as "guidance" which is what Egwene and the rest of the delusional AS think they need to goive the Dragon. They are not equal to the Dragon.

 

What exactly do they know at this point which Rand does not know? They do not want him to break the seals..which in itself is the wrong way to go.

 

I would think guidance was a secondary position also. Guiding is not the same thing as Acting. The Dragon Reborn acts. Everyone else gives what help they can give. And if their help is of the advisory nature, as the type the Aes Sedai can give, then that is guiding, to my mind. Rand doesn't have to listen to suggestions. And I did say that he (or Mat or Perrin) doesn't need so much guiding anymore.

[XXX]

What "guidance" did they give Rand?...Moraine did protect him initially but once he had access to the OP,he goes to Tear on his own to lift Callander, he goes on his own(against Moraine's wishes) to the waste to rally the Aiel, he makes the decision(again against Moriane's wishes) to bring the Aiel out of the waste and capture Carhein. He makes his own decision to attack and defeat forsaken at Illian and Andor.

 

Looks to me the As did precious little "guiding" of the dragon from the very beginning.

[Superhal]

They do not want him to break the seals..which in itself is the wrong way to go.

 

I dunno, that's about the only point that every prophecy (including the one from the Borderlanders) agrees on.