Swords in Randland

[aznprince001]

Platemail, i agree is pretty rare because all other technology is rare too. There were no siege towers (as i recall) during the seige of Caemlyn. That technology should be around now since Aludra has used 'dragons'

 

Basic military technology is Randland is lacking, and even missing some core weapons. Blame it on the Forsaken and the DO.

[cloudcrono]

All I have to say is.... wow. I learned a lot from this thread.

 

Also weekend weapon hobbyists are cool!

[strider1276]

A rather pointless arguement, since we do not have a complete knowledge regarding just what kind of armour that is commonly used. If I remember correctly, at least the whitecloaks have been mentioned to use chain, while Seanchan uses overlapping plate. In general, plate seems rare in randland, can't straightaway recall any mentions of that.

 

Ah, but I at least wasn't talking about armour in the WoT, but rather, historical armour. Hence the mentioning of "European" and "Japanese" as opposed to "Seanchan" or "Amadecian". ;)

 

All I have to say is.... wow. I learned a lot from this thread.

 

Also weekend weapon hobbyists are cool!

 

If I may say so myself, yes, quite a few of us are. ;)

 

As for learning things on this topic, I'll point you yet again to the ARMA (http://www.thearma.org) and to Sword Forum International (http://www.swordforum.com). Or, if you like, feel free to PM me here, and I'll share what I know (which is more than in this thread, but still only scratches the surface of what there is to know - which only scratches the surface of all there *was* to know!) :)

 

Hope that made some sense. :)

[Kaxen]

I think its amazing the depth that everyone is going into with this, i'm finding it really interesting, although i have to admit i enjoy the blacksmithing side of swords an weapons better :D

 

This is a link to Arms Of Valour who have an authorized and approved design of the heron marked blade.

 

"Authorized and approved by Robert Jordan, this sword is an accurate copy of those blades in the Wheel of Time series"

 

http://www.armsofvalour.com/miva/merchant.mv?Session_ID=01C6FCA808F1097C000004F800000000&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOVL&Product_Code=1340&Category_Code=WT

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, one of my brothers bought one of those .... for alot less than 275 dollars too ... its crap.

 

Sorry if I'm bursting anyone's bubble out there ...

[aznprince001]

THE HILT IS MADE OF BRASS?!?!

 

Approved by RJ sure...

 

Aproved by Rand....No

[aznprince001]

This is an interesting site... I wonder what my ssgt. will say when i run around in roman armor.

 

something like:

 

"Holy S*** a F***ing TERRORIST...No its pfc nguyen...

[riderClimber]

I stumbled on this thread while looking for info about Rand's sword. Quite an interesting read with a ton of relevant weapons, armor, and combat-related info so I commend the participants so far. I've seen the "authorized" version of the sword and it just doesn't do it for me so I am about to embark on a quest to make one for myself. A very lengthy undertaking I am sure if it's going to improve on the ones you can buy. Here's my question for the group...

 

Can we come up with a couple of sketches or drawings that seem to best fit the descriptions and general theme of the WoT universe for Rands sword? I would love to have some other input before beginning work on my first "rough draft". I'm sure there will need to be several versions as I develop some necessary skills.

[SinisterDeath]

Well the blade is a katana shape. which doesn't require the other stuff to 'make' The hilt, And guard? are a different story...

[DragonSpawn]

http://www.towndock.net/salty/img/knight.jpg

 

 

How does a person with a Katana beat this guy? Who has a shield and a large blunt european sword that will incapitate with pretty much one blow? More importantly how does it get around the shield? Without having to concern itself with the parry blow as well.

[riderClimber]

Well the blade is a katana shape. which doesn't require the other stuff to 'make' The hilt' date=' And guard? are a different story...[/quote']

 

Yeah. The blade is pretty basic although I have seen katana-shaped blades I liked better than others. What I'm looking for is more a consensus on the design of the hilt portion along with the heron itself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How does a person with a Katana beat this guy?

 

Runs in circles around him 'til he falls down, then impales him at his leisure.

 

Seriously, though, that particular suit is vulnerable in the shoulders, just above the hips, and possibly in the gorget (I can't see enough detail to be sure). Actually, with most plate armor, all the joints are relatively vulnerable. Otherwise, no one in plate armor would ever have been killed.

[DragonSpawn]

How does a person with a Katana beat this guy?

 

Runs in circles around him 'til he falls down' date=' then impales him at his leisure.

 

Seriously, though, that particular suit is vulnerable in the shoulders, just above the hips, and possibly in the gorget (I can't see enough detail to be sure). Actually, with most plate armor, all the joints are relatively vulnerable. Otherwise, no one in plate armor would ever have been killed.[/quote']

 

Most in plate armor were killed by two handed swords, maces or axes, something with enough brute force to slam on the shield to unbalance the heavily armored adversary. Which I highly doubt you can do with a katana.

 

Also you want to run around someone wielding a long blade? That sounds very dangerous and unwise, as your defensive capabilities are then practically nil, kind of hard to parry when running like that no?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, the running around part was a joke, as evidenced by starting the next with the word "seriously".

 

Lets examine the rest of your statements, shall we?

 

Most in plate armor were killed by two handed swords, maces or axes, something with enough brute force to slam on the shield to unbalance the heavily armored adversary. Which I highly doubt you can do with a katana.

 

Actually, no. Most people in plate armor were killed by blunt weapons (like maces or heavy flails), archers, or thrusting weapons. Plate armor is specifically designed to thwart the "smashing through" with a blade. Very few axes, even, were strong enough to do the job. You get through plate armor with a sword by trusting into the joints of the armor. A rapier is more dangerous to a man in full plate than a two-handed sword. From http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

 

The primary technique for fighting nearly any kind of armor with most any kind of sword is not to cut but to thrust at the gaps and joints.

 

The same paragraph states:

 

As a sword, the Japanese katana is unmatched in its sharpness and cutting power. Furthermore, it is particularly good at cutting against metal (–but no, it only cuts through other swords in movies and video games!). However, Medieval plate armor is well known for its resistance to cutting, and cutting at a moving target hidden by a shield or a greatsword is not easy. While the edge of a katana is very strong with a sharp cutting bevel, it is a thick wedge shape and still has to move aside material as it cuts. Though this is devastating on a draw slice against flesh and bone, it is much less effective against armors. Realizing this, several styles of Japanese swordsmanship devised specific techniques not to cut at armor, but to stab and thrust at the gaps and joints of it just as the Europeans did against their own plate armor.

 

So, here we are:

 

1) Katanas are good at cutting metal, in fact, probably better than any other sword type.

 

2) Even a katana will have trouble cutting through full plate, so:

 

3) Thrust. Impale. Stick em with the pointy end, to paraphrase a certain now blind girl in another series.

 

In short, a fella wielding a katana has as much of a chance as any other swordsman, and a better chance than your two-hander fellas. Two-handed swords were used against polearms, not armored men.

 

From: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

 

In contrast to longswords, technically, true two-handed swords (epee's a deux main) or "two-handers" were actually Renaissance, not Medieval weapons. They are really those specialized forms of the later 1500-1600s, such as the Swiss/German Dopplehänder ("double-hander") or Bidenhänder ("both-hander"). The popular names Zweihander / Zweyhander are actually relatively modern not historical terms. English ones were sometimes referred to as "slaughter-swords" after the German, Schlachterschwerter ("battle swords"). ... These weapons were used primarily for fighting among pike-squares where they would hack paths through knocking aside poles, possibly even lobbing the ends off opposing halberds and pikes then slashing and stabbing among the ranks. Wielded by the largest and most impressive soldiers (Doppelsoldners, who received double pay), they were also used to guard banners and castle walls. The Italian humanist historian Paulus Jovius writing in the early 1500s also described the two-hand great sword as being used by Swiss soldiers to chop the shafts of pikes at the battle of Fornovo in 1495.

[aznprince001]

Im not Japanese, but i've learned that the samurai usally preffered a chop and slash. It is more aggressive and foes are psychologically damaged by its movement.

 

Also from another Thread:

 

Platemail is not widely used in Randland.

-Seanchan use scalemail

-Whitecloaks use chainmail as do other countries

 

Military Technology is lacking because Artur Hawkwing's tactics are still being used in Randland. (THATS LIKE 2000 YRS AGO!!!)

[SinisterDeath]

Isn't the Japanese 'samuria' armor vastly superior to the european plate armor?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Isn't the Japanese 'samuria' armor vastly superior to the european plate armor?

 

Nope. Definitely nope.

[ludde]

Here is a review I did on the heron mark blade for those that are interesting.

 

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72697

[aznprince001]

Well it depends on the time period:

 

Europeans always experiemented and founded new ways to make armor stronger and better.

 

The Japanese mainly kept the original idea. Plates being tied together, effective against slashes and chops, not effective against arrows and thrusts.

 

BUT! Europeans had very weak armor in the begginning. Leather was a first. Then ringmail, chainmail, scalemail, platemail. All these types of armor are susceptible to arrows though plate and scalemail are much more resistent to swords.

[ludde]

"azneprince:

You need somewhat of a heavy sword to fight a war.

 

1. If ur hefting a sword, and say a trolloc comes by with a axe or spear, he'll take you down.

2. The sword has to be somewhat heavier so it can pierce armor. Otherwise u are relying too much on strength and that would make you more tired that lifting a heavy sword.

3. Your sword needs to be able to parry a spear. Maj, try parrying sometime. Its okay to parry of your enemy who has another sword in eqaul or lesser length, but come a bigger sword, spear, axe, or a halbeard, you need something of weight to punch that metal out of your face.

 

About 3: Maj, pick up a sword that u specified, a really light one; If someone slashed at you with a chunck of steel, their is no way you can parry, you dodge than counter attack.

 

I didn't read about Rand's counterattacks very much.

 

Trust me, warefare is my life."

 

You do not need to punch any metal out of you face. Punching you do when attacking with a fist. When a sword comes towards you, you move and direct the sword out of your centre.

Then when his centre is not focus on your centre you have the advantage.

 

"Sinister death:

Folding is basically what it sounds like.. folding the metal fusing the two pieces together.. Every time you fold it however, the metal can get potentially weaker, and stronger... Basically it takes out the impurities, but everytime you fold it, you lose any carbon thats in it. *carbon gives it strength, impurities make it weaker..*

 

 

Sinister death

That and the Japanese cooled there steel much slower then eurpeans. Cooling it so fast, made there swords really hard, but brittle. The japanese steel swords, being cooled slower, allowed them to be more flexiable.. Infact, there swords even the edge as cooled faster then the middle part of the blade. Allowing the edge to keep its edge, and the main part of the blade to be flexible.. Both crucial in combat.. I'd rather have a blade that flexes a bit, over one that shatters on a heavy blow!

 

Now i'd have loved to see a european vs japanese war scenerio, cause you just know the japanese would have kicked there arses! Armor, weaponry were pretty good.. Though, I think the welsh longbow would have given the Japanese some worries."

 

If you fold the steel too much you will loos to much of the carbon. But folding it from ten to twenty times, you won't loos all the carbon. About 0.7 percent carbon is a good amount in sword making.

The Japanese smiths had/have two ways to mix hardness and flexibility. The core of the sword was of less carbon, but the outer layer of the sword was higher, about 0,7 percent. Depending on the smith. The second one was that they covered the edge with a thin thin mixture of clay, and covered the body and the back of the sword with thicker clay. Then when heating the blade the the part with thick clay did not heat up so much, and when cooling it in water the thicker part cooled slower. This treatment will show of in later polishing when the hamon reveals itself. (The wavy texture often found at the edge.)

On the Japanese warrior vs. the European warrior. Nobody knows. Don't think for a second that the Japanese warrior is superior. And don't think for a second that the European warrior is superior. You have good and less good warriors at both sides.

 

"RobertAlexWillies

Design is more than just weight. The katana's slight curve allows for deflection without having to meet the full weight of a blow squarely (as with a straight blade) or creating awkward angles (as with a more distinctly curved scimitar). The hand-and-a-half grip and length allow for body angles using either one or two hands, for greater versatility. A fighter with a katana will trounce a one with a broadsword and shield combo nine times in ten, because the katana's cutting power (which depends on speed more than weight) renders anything but a full steel shield useless, and unless you're an 800 pound gorilla, trying to keep up with an unencumbered opponent while you have a 25-40 pound shield on your arm is a death sentence. Full metal armor and shields flourished mainly in medieval Europe, because the well equipped nobility rarely had to fight anything other than pitchfork wielding illiterate serfs. Either that or someone similarly encumbered. Trained foreign armies regularly butchered European heavy cavalry."

 

Ha ha. You really think that a Japanese warrior with no big skill in fighting against shields will win nine in ten times. As being said, the shields are not of meek wood, but hard.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As being said, the shields are not of meek wood, but hard.

 

-sigh- I've personally cut through steel banded oak with one of my own katanas. I guarantee you a professional samurai would be much better than I am. Besides, I was talking more about the encumbrance. A buckler leaves you free to move, but provides almost no protection against a katana. A tower shield is the only thing that would be an effective defense, and they are BIG and HEAVY. You slip once, and while your shield is protecting your front, I'm behind you hamstringing you with my katana.

[Kara_J]

Slightly off-topic, which series did this quote come from?

Stick em with the pointy end

I recognise it but can't place it......and its bugging me! :x :D

[ludde]

And this steel banded oak, how big was it? Like a shield. Did you go out find some oak and banded it with steel? Or did you treat the wood first. I am no expert in treating wood, or witch wood type could become the hardest. Was it a traditional made shield? If that's the case how thick and long? You see that the old masters in making shields knew how to make the wood hard. Like the sword, shields was not made over the night but developed. And a professional worrier with shield knows how to use it. I have a bokken (practice sword in Japanese sword art made of wood) and my followed students in sword art told me that I needed to treat the wood with some kind of oil. I used boiled linceed oil. I think it was the name of it anyway. Before I used this at practice I could feel it bend at a hit. Now after I have treated it I cant feel a shit. Nothing. It's hard as hell.

[ludde]

For those that are interested in such stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFGcZ7nbbXg

And this

 

The first movie scratches a little, but keep watching and it will be okay.

[Ord]

Slightly off-topic, which series did this quote come from?

Stick em with the pointy end

I recognise it but can't place it......and its bugging me! :x :D

 

 

 

A Song of Ice and Fire.

by George R. R. Martin