The nature of Rand Sedai

[MasterAblar]

Just because you have the memories and the soul and the personality of the person does not make you THAT person. You are a reincarnation of that person. That does NOT make you that person.

If Aran'gar and Osan'gar were still alive, should they be held responsible for crimes committed by Aginor and Balthamel during the AoL?

 

Yes, because they never died. They were sealed in the Bore and then transmigrated with the same memories and personality into a new body. That is a different process then dying and then being reincarnated 3000 years later. Rand's a bit of a special case because he does have LTT's memories but it's still a different case from Aran'gar and Osan'gar. He was born again and lived 20 years with no knowledge of what LTT did. He's still a different person. While the soul is the same as LTT's, I think a closer comparison would be Mat. They both just haves memories from different men. Should Mat be held responsible for the actions or crimes of the men whose memories he has? That is a better comparison then the two Forsaken.

 

The two cases aren't exactly the same though. Mat only shares their memories, not their souls.

 

Agreed. But Rand is a bit of a fluke scenario. I still think his situation is closer to Mat's (the memories of a dead man) then the two Forsaken. LTT died, then Rand was born and lived his own life before then having access to LTT's memories. This doesn't make him responsible for LTT's actions (despite the soul being the same) any more then Mat is responsible for the actions of the men whose memories he has. The Forsaken are obsolutely responsible for all their actions because their was no interruption in their consciousness. They are the same person in a different body. Not a reborn soul.

 

Rand's case is rather unique. He's the only person who's rebirth was actually prophesiced. The realisation that he was LTT reborn however only came later in his life. Which is why I'd argue that's it's for him to decide whether or not he considers himself the same person. It appears that, not only has he decided to do so, but also that it was vital for him to do so. Not just for him but probably for the entire world.

 

If he considers himself the same person, then he has to accept the bad sides as well as the good sides.

[AshaShan]

 

Having temporary amnesia is a bit different then dying and then being reborn as a separate person 3000 years later. Keep in mind that in the WoT world, every single person is reincarnated again and again. Should every person in the world be held responsible for all the actions or crimes of every incarnation of their soul? Rand is a complete fluke in that he ends up with LTT's memories and that his particular soul can actually be identified as a specific prior person. That doesn't make him any more responsible for LTT's actions (after all, how can you be responsible for something that you didn't have any power to prevent) then everyone else in the world is for their prior lives.

 

Why is it different? What makes us who we are if not the accumlation of our experiances and the emotions they cause? Amnesia, like death and reincarnation, erases all those memories and leaves the person a blank slate. Rand forgot being Lews Therin for twenty years, now he remembers. In my example, Ishamael would have forgotten being Ishamael for the same amount of time and then remembered his past. The two scenarios are extremely similar IMO. The only real difference being that Lews Therin changed bodies during his amnesiac phase, which you discounted as a factor earlier in the cases of Aran'gar and Osan'gar.

[capuga]

 

Having temporary amnesia is a bit different then dying and then being reborn as a separate person 3000 years later. Keep in mind that in the WoT world, every single person is reincarnated again and again. Should every person in the world be held responsible for all the actions or crimes of every incarnation of their soul? Rand is a complete fluke in that he ends up with LTT's memories and that his particular soul can actually be identified as a specific prior person. That doesn't make him any more responsible for LTT's actions (after all, how can you be responsible for something that you didn't have any power to prevent) then everyone else in the world is for their prior lives.

 

Why is it different? What makes us who we are if not the accumlation of our experiances and the emotions they cause? Amnesia, like death and reincarnation, erases all those memories and leaves the person a blank slate. Rand forgot being Lews Therin for twenty years, now he remembers. In my example, Ishamael would have forgotten being Ishamael for the same amount of time and then remembered his past. The two scenarios are extremely similar IMO. The only real difference being that Lews Therin changed bodies during his amnesiac phase, which you discounted as a factor earlier in the cases of Aran'gar and Osan'gar.

 

Actually, LTT died which is a big difference. I do understand your point and agree to an extent. Rand certainly seems to view himself as a continuation of the same person and seems to be troubled by guilty feelings from the memories of what LTT did. But still, nobody is arguing that everyone else in the world, whose previous incarnations have certainly at some point in time done bad things, should be responsible for their prior lives' actions. Or that Mat should be responsible for the actions of the men's whose memories he has. So it's not really fair for Rand to be blamed for anything LTT did. Same soul or not, bottom line is that his situation is not much different then Mat's.

[sleepinghour]

Same soul or not, bottom line is that his situation is not much different then Mat's.

I think Mat's situation is completely different. The memories he received were not from his own past lives, merely from people who visited the 'Finns. And he doesn't have their souls, only their memories. If the reincarnations of those people were to remember their past lives, they'd have the same memories as Mat.

[capuga]

Same soul or not, bottom line is that his situation is not much different then Mat's.

I think Mat's situation is completely different. The memories he received were not from his own past lives, merely from people who visited the 'Finns. And he doesn't have their souls, only their memories. If the reincarnations of those people were to remember their past lives, they'd have the same memories as Mat.

 

They both have memories from dead men. In practice it's not really any different. Could Rand al'Thor have prevented anything that LTT did 3000 years ago? Of course not, he wasn't born yet. So why should he be responsible for those actions (or praised for LTT's accomplishments)?

[capuga]

I think we should really try to put ourselves in Rand's shoes and really think what that would be like. Actually think what it would be like to have lived your life as you and then suddenly have someone else's memories pop into your head. You would still feel you are you right? You would have access to additional knowledge now. You might feel bad/sad for any upsetting memories because those thoughts are now in your head. But did you actually do those things? Let's say you remembered that this person murdered someone hundreds of years ago. Do you think you would feel that you should go to jail for that murder? Did you think you would feel that you actually killed someone? You would probably be upset because you had to have this memory but you wouldn't feel responsible for it. You weren't even alive then. What if the person had done great things like won a Nobel prize. Did you actually win a Nobel prize? You might feel confident because you have that knowledge. You could use that knowledge to accomplish great things. But you didn't win that award. You didn't go to school to become a scientist. You are a different person.

 

We shouldn't focus so much on technicalities or terms like "soul" and just really put outselves in Rand's shoes and imagine what that would be like.

[Zentari]

They both have memories from dead men. In practice it's not really any different. Could Rand al'Thor have prevented anything that LTT did 3000 years ago? Of course not, he wasn't born yet. So why should he be responsible for those actions (or praised for LTT's accomplishments)?

They don't have the soul.

 

This is what kinda tops the whole thing.In our world we can reasonably define such things.Details get hazy on a world like WoT's with the whole different ruleset.Heck, you want to make any argument about being able to stop things , you could justify a whole lot of things Rand did, given his taveren nature.

 

You consider Rand to be a different person, I do not and by his sayings , neither does he.

 

The whole thing could get quite philosophical really.

 

 

We shouldn't focus so much on technicalities or terms like "soul" and just really put outselves in Rand's shoes and imagine what that would be like.

Souls in wheel of time are not technicalities nor terms.They are actual entities that define a person.Their existence and influence are empirically proven, as we the readers and the characters in universe know.

 

Don't dismiss it just because you would if you were debating about IRL hypothesis , you have to take into account the universe it's in.

 

As for the the whole put yourself into Rand's shoes, you don't have to.You can just read about how he refers to himself.

[sleepinghour]

They both have memories from dead men. In practice it's not really any different.

Yes, it is. Mat doesn't have their souls or personalities. He remembers their lives, which is not the same as actually being them. The 'Finns have also had access to those memories, and may still have them. They don't even get people's entire lives, only from the point where the person in question visited the 'Finns. They could get Farstrider's last ten minutes before dying and transplant into the next person who walks through the doorway; that doesn't make that person Farstrider.

[capuga]

They both have memories from dead men. In practice it's not really any different.

Yes, it is. Mat doesn't have their souls or personalities. He remembers their lives, which is not the same as actually being them. The 'Finns have also had access to those memories, and may still have them. They don't even get people's entire lives, only from the point where the person in question visited the 'Finns. They could get Farstrider's last ten minutes before dying and transplant into the next person who walks through the doorway; that doesn't make that person Farstrider.

 

Having the same soul does not make you the same person. Again, how can you be held responsible for actions that you could not have prevented? How can you be praised for things that you did not accomplish? Rand and LTT are two different people born almost 3500 years apart. Rand has LTT's knowledge in his head. He is not LTT. Rand al'Thor was born 20 years ago and did not have anything to do with any action that LTT was responsible for. Again, is every person in Randland responsible for every action that their soul has made in all prior lives? Of course not. They are responsible for themselves and what they can control. Rand al'Thor did not kill all of his kin. LTT did. Rand has that memory in his head so he feels sadness and guilt but Rand al'Thor is not responsible for those murders. LTT was a powerful channeler and sealed the Dark One. Rand has those memories and can use them to create weaves and draw on that knowledge for help in figuring out how to deal with the Dark One. But he did not accomplish the things LTT did. Those occured millenia before he was even born.

[Manscher]

You keep saying that having the same soul does not make you the same person, then what about the heroes waiting TAR and Birgitte who got ripped out? What is she then per your definition? if not the same person as the one in TAR, the same person who remembers, in a straight line all the lives she lived, then what is she?

 

Everybody is reborn in wheel of time, but I think it's fair to say that the matters surrounding a hero of the horn is a bitter different, as they are given the time in between their reincarnations to continue living, to wait. Meaning they are the one and same sentient being through out all their rebirths and waiting periods in TAR. They just don't remember anything during their "rebirth period". Birgitte being ripped out broke those rules, just as I suspect Rands case of being able to remember his previous life somehow broke those rules, but that does not mean they are not the same people throughout all those lives, they are the same sentient living soul just given new flesh and normally a temporarily amnesia.

[capuga]

You keep saying that having the same soul does not make you the same person, then what about the heroes waiting TAR and Birgitte who got ripped out? What is she then per your definition? if not the same person as the one in TAR, the same person who remembers, in a straight line all the lives she lived, then what is she?

 

Everybody is reborn in wheel of time, but I think it's fair to say that the matters surrounding a hero of the horn is a bitter different, as they are given the time in between their reincarnations to continue living, to wait. Meaning they are the one and same sentient being through out all their rebirths and waiting periods in TAR. They just don't remember anything during their "rebirth period". Birgitte being ripped out broke those rules, just as I suspect Rands case of being able to remember his previous life somehow broke those rules, but that does not mean they are not the same people throughout all those lives, they are the same sentient living soul just given new flesh and normally a temporarily amnesia.

 

The Heroes in TAR are a special case. They are a strange combination of all their lives. I would say they are distinct from each of those lives individually. Yes, Rand is also slightly different.

 

But I will hold form that each person that is born is a separate person. Even in a world where reincarnation is a matter of fact. Each person that is born is a separate person with a separate life. These people cannot be blamed or praised for actions that occured several millenia before they were born. Actions that they had no control over. Rand has LTT's knowledge and memories but he is not LTT. LTT died. Rand was born. They lived different lives thousands of years apart. They are separate people. Just like everyone else in the world.

[Manscher]

And yet Rand is still being held somewhat responsible for what Lews Therin did, heck even the Wheel itself keeps him responsible! Spinning him out again just so he clean up the mess he left in his previous incarnation. Heck the whole thing that saved him at VoG was the exactly the fact that he would be able to right what he did wrong, given a second chance to clean up his mess. Half of Rands madness, not taint induced mind you, where because he could not accept exactly this fact. He refused to accept that he was the one and same person and not until he was finally capable of accepting that, and the burdens of his previous life, did he finally seem to "awake" and become who he was meant to be.

 

For regular souls, I can somewhat agree, as they do not seem to be in "existence" while waiting to be reincarnated, but the Heroes, and that includes Rand, is an exception to that, as they've lived continuously since they were bound to the horn and until now.

[Suttree]

Incarnations of the same soul, diff people. Memories don't change that.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Case closed.

[Manscher]

Then what do you make of the souls bound to the horn? It's one linear time for them, no breaks in between, no holes. How do you define that? Is Birgitte not the same person in flesh as she was in TAR?

 

If I'm not mistaken that quote is regarding a question surrounding why people were afraid of dying when they knew they were reborn. In which case RJs answer should be interpreted that for a regular person, it means that they as a person, the knowledge and experience(What helps shape a personality) will cease to exist when they die. We know that is not true for those specific souls bound to the wheel, so can it really be applied to them as well?

[Suttree]

Then what do you make of the souls bound to the horn? It's one linear time for them, no breaks in between, no holes.

 

I'm sorry could you explain what you mean here? Each new person reborn is a break with holes. It's not like when Birgitte's soul lives life as a farmer and doesn't do anything extraordinary she is able to remember previous hero incarnations of that soul. They are different people.

For instance

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

Q: Did Artur Hawkwing know he was a Hero of the Horn? (I asked this because of a quote in BWB when he was on his deathbed, saying the battle is not over yet).

RJ: No, not when he was alive.

[Manscher]

I refer to the time they spend in TAR in between their reincarnations. True that during their "living" periods, they have suffer from amnesia so that they do not remember their previous lives. But as soon as they die and return to TAR, they remember everything again, so there is no "break" in their life, it's just one straight line. Example being Birgitte being ripped out of TAR with exactly all this knowledge and experience. She as a person is defined based upon all those previous lives and the time spend in TAR, so would that not mean that all those separate lives are a part of Birgittes whole life?

[Jon Paul]

I don't think a lot of people are being fair in this thread. The Dragon Reborn is not just any other soul. He's completely unique and the evidence in the books seemingly support Lews Therin and Rand being one and the same person.

[RyanL24]

All I can say at this point is "Wtf egwene?"

 

 

 

Dude, wouldn't it suck if a wizard tapped you on your shoulder right now and told you that your soul committed murder a few hundred years ago, and he's just now getting around to holding your soul accountable? LAME!!!

[capuga]

I don't think a lot of people are being fair in this thread. The Dragon Reborn is not just any other soul. He's completely unique and the evidence in the books seemingly support Lews Therin and Rand being one and the same person.

 

No, it supports them being the same soul. With the unique ability to have memories of two lives at the same time. A person lives and dies. The soul continues on. LTT was a person. He lived and died. Rand al'Thor is a person. Currently living. Having memories of LTT's life doesn't make him LTT. Nobody is arguing that Joe Schmo in the WoT who doesn't remember his soul's previous life is the same person as that prior life. But they are the same soul just like Rand is the same soul. The mechanics of reincarnation remain the same for Joe Schmo's soul as Rand al'Thor's. Rand just happens to have some memories. The memories are the only thing that separates Rand from the average person. And they are memories of a separate, different person that lived a separate, different life several millenia ago.

[Manscher]

But the mechanics for Joe Schmo and Rand is not the same, Rand gets returned to TAR and live on, Joe Schmo does not.

[capuga]

But the mechanics for Joe Schmo and Rand is not the same, Rand gets returned to TAR and live on, Joe Schmo does not.

 

Which only matters when the soul is in TAR between lives. Which it is not, as Rand is currently living.

 

Take Birgitte for example. When in TAR, she remembers all her soul's lives and she thinks of all these separate people as aspects of herself. But during each of those lives, while those people were actually living, she was a separate person each time that didn't know anything about Birgitte Silverbow. Each time the soul was reborn it lived a new life as a separate person.

[Suttree]

But the mechanics for Joe Schmo and Rand is not the same, Rand gets returned to TAR and live on, Joe Schmo does not.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

Time in TAR doesn't change this and the cosmology is the same regardless of who you are.

[Manscher]

But the mechanics for Joe Schmo and Rand is not the same, Rand gets returned to TAR and live on, Joe Schmo does not.

 

Which only matters when the soul is in TAR between lives. Which it is not, as Rand is currently living.

 

Take Birgitte for example. When in TAR, she remembers all her soul's lives and she thinks of all these separate people as aspects of herself. But during each of those lives, while those people were actually living, she was a separate person each time that didn't know anything about Birgitte Silverbow. Each time the soul was reborn it lived a new life as a separate person.

 

Still does not help explaining her current situation, where her current personality is based upon all those hundreds of lives before that.

 

I accept that because they have no memories of previous lives during a normal reincarnation, they develop different personalities based upon the culture and social status that they've been raised in and the things they experience throughout their life. But in Birgittes case we are still looking at a soul, a living being, that have a constant memory, life experience and a personality developed based upon all these things. Rands situation after VoG is somewhat similiar to Birgittes, as he suddenly have all the experience and knowledge from his previous life merged into his own. His personality even seems to have changed greatly because of this merge of experience and knowledge.

[MasterAblar]

Rand states pretty clearly in A Testing that he considers himself and LTT to be one and the same person, and since for all practical purposes, they might as well be, that's all I need to know. If he didn't believe that they were one and the same then he wouldn't suffer from the mistakes he made as LTT, and since no one likes to suffer, it seems to me that he considers the action of LTT as his own, and therefore their consequences are his to bare as well.

 

He feels pride at his successes, sadness at his failures, anger at his mistakes. He even considers himself to be over 400 years old even though his body obviously isn't that old. His consciousness is however, and that's what really matters. His two aspects, as Rand and LTT have merged, or rather reunited, which is what freaked Min out. She had no idea who he was anymore. Well, Rand makes it clear that he is both, which are in reality one. Rand would certainly agree that he can be held accountable for the actions of LTT.

[anotherfingolfin]

Technically, no. LTT died. Rand is a different person. For all intents and purposes though, they are the same. The soul is the same, the memories are integrated, and though we have little to go on, the personalities seem to have an uncanny similarity.

Rand al'Thor has no official claim to anything that is or was Lews Therin Telamon's. Yet it would be silly not to give him/his knowledge/his experiences their due weight.