Freedom or Security

[Stitch]

However we have seen (excepting randland nobles) two instances of people being raised to the blood, Egeanin Tamarath and Tylee Khirgan; and many consider being made property to ALSO be an advancement (strangely) and certainly we have seen evidence of titles within the ranks which indicate promotional opportunities, though I grant you being made into one of the blood or into one of the highblood would no doubt take exceptional service (such as being responsible for capturing hundreds of marath'damane) and while property may not be allowed to leave, I think their settlers WOULD be allowed, provided that they remained true to the oaths.

[Suttree]

However we have seen (excepting randland nobles) two instances of people being raised to the blood, Egeanin Tamarath and Tylee Khirgan

 

True but they were both highly ranked military. Tylee was already a Banner General and Egeanin a Captain of a Ship(although Tuon has since demoted her out of the blood on a whim and she was raised initially by a DF for bringing the sad bracelets in the first place) As I said before events happening during the The Return are a one time opportunity in the history of the nation and need to be viewed in context.

[Stitch]

On a whim? Perhaps. But she deserved more than a mere name change.... she is a traitor, regardless of the circumstances that brought that about.

 

However it does show that those that achieve are (at least on occasion) rewarded with an advancement in their status, and would it have mattered if she was a brand new recruit were she able to have brought in several hundred new damane? I doubt it - but were she not a senior officer already she probably would not have been able to achieve at such a level. Earlier success and advancement provide the foundation on which greater success and advancement is possible.

 

True, war (and other times of strife) presents an immense possibility of advancement... but the same can be said in ANY society - for example Mat would still be a rather feckless gambler if it were not for the opportunity presented by the war... he certainly would not have had the recognition that his victories won him and at best he might be put in charge of a group of soldiers who did what he said only because he was Rand's friend. Egwene too has been the beneficiary of such strife, she would be at best an Accepted right now if it were not for the troubles of the tower; as would Elayne who would be an accepted and still princess, Perrin would still be a blacksmith (if that)....

[USURP888]

However we have seen (excepting randland nobles) two instances of people being raised to the blood, Egeanin Tamarath and Tylee Khirgan

 

True but they were both highly ranked military. Tylee was already a Banner General and Egeanin a Captain of a Ship(although Tuon has since demoted her out of the blood on a whim and she was raised initially by a DF for bringing the sad bracelets in the first place) As I said before events happening during the The Return are a one time opportunity in the history of the nation and need to be viewed in context.

 

 

I don't think you can say Tuon demoted Egeanin on a whim, she is guilty of kidnapping the Daughter of the Nine Moons along with Mat. By law according to Egeanin herself, they would all be slowly tortured to death.

[David Selig]

Erunion I would agree with most of your post except the slaves being mistreated. The only slaves we see being punished are those who were cast down as criminals or rebels. When Mat went down from the damane kennels, tuon told mat that to bed a damane is repulsive, that shows that to abuse them is such a way is not considered normal. We have not seen any slaves slaughtered or imprisoned from a whim, The deathwatch guards and the seekers are under the direct control of the high nobles. They die if they fail not because they are slaves.

The damane are not considered really human, so of course most Seanchan wouldn't want to have sex with them. I really doubt the other slaves aren't used for sex regularly. Suroth being given the Deathwatch Guard "to serve them" and her absolutely horrified reaction is a strong hint for that. And let's be realistic - what are the odds hat all those young and beautiful da'covale in the see-through robes who are always around the Blood are there just for the aesthetic pleasure of looking at them? Don't forget we are talking about a culture where the nobility consider themselves so superior to the others that they get deeply insulted if a commoner even meets their eyes briefly or dares to speak to them directly.

 

Liandrin was treated pretty badly by Suroth - constantly beaten for minor infractions.

 

What we know is that there's a small caste of privileged da'covale (so'jin, Deathwatch Guard, etc), but we've seen very little of the other da'covale except them being used as living furniture by the Blood, which doesn't exactly bodes well for the way they are treated. I find this bit pretty telling though, from TGH after Rand killed Turak:

“Whenever they saw us fighting, they fell on their knees, put their faces to the floor, and wrapped their arms around their heads. They never moved, or cried out; never tried to help the soldiers, or give an alarm.

 

They were so thoroughly trained into the proper behaviour that even when armed men entered the house and started fighting the soldiers, they did nothing, since that's not their place. They just stayed there and could've been slaughtered if the intruders were so inclined.

[USURP888]

The damane are not considered really human, so of course most Seanchan wouldn't want to have sex with them. I really doubt the other slaves aren't used for sex regularly. Suroth being given the Deathwatch Guard "to serve them" and her absolutely horrified reaction is a strong hint for that. And let's be realistic - what are the odds hat all those young and beautiful da'covale in the see-through robes who are always around the Blood are there just for the aesthetic pleasure of looking at them? Don't forget we are talking about a culture where the nobility consider themselves so superior to the others that they get deeply insulted if a commoner even meets their eyes briefly or dares to speak to them directly.

 

The thought of being cast down horrified Suroth, the deathwatch guards are to make her da'covale, nowhere was it said in the books that it is routine for da'covale to be raped. It is quite unfair to cast your beliefs as facts when we have no shred of evidence of such. What we believe may not be what really is.

 

When Selucia slapped a commoner, Tuon thought to herself that to slap somebody so low would lower her eyes much the same as when she lost her temper because her damane lydia foretold her marriage. Their word of honor shames them if they lash out unfairly against people lower than them. What more shame would Tuon or another blood receive if they lower themselves enough to abuse a slave in such a way as rape?

 

Liandrin was treated pretty badly by Suroth - constantly beaten for minor infractions.

 

Suroth knows Liandrin was a black ajah cast down and given to her for punishment.

 

What we know is that there's a small caste of privileged da'covale (so'jin, Deathwatch Guard, etc), but we've seen very little of the other da'covale except them being used as living furniture by the Blood, which doesn't exactly bodes well for the way they are treated. I find this bit pretty telling though, from TGH after Rand killed Turak:

 

“Whenever they saw us fighting, they fell on their knees, put their faces to the floor, and wrapped their arms around their heads. They never moved, or cried out; never tried to help the soldiers, or give an alarm.

 

They were so thoroughly trained into the proper behaviour that even when armed men entered the house and started fighting the soldiers, they did nothing, since that's not their place. They just stayed there and could've been slaughtered if the intruders were so inclined.

 

I don't see how servants being well-trained means their masters must be rapists.

[David Selig]

When Selucia slapped a commoner, Tuon thought to herself that to slap somebody so low would lower her eyes much the same as when she lost her temper because her damane lydia foretold her marriage. Their word of honor shames them if they lash out unfairly against people lower than them. What more shame would Tuon or another blood receive if they lower themselves enough to abuse a slave in such a way as rape?

That's because Tuon considers herself too important to slap people directly - she orders them beaten. Or beheaded. Or tortured. Just because she doesn't do it directly doesn't mean much. You can't have sex by proxy, so it's a completely different situation.

 

And in a slavery system, if you had sex with your slave, that was not considered a rape usually - it was well within the right of the slave owners. There's no evidence that it's different in Seanchan or that it's considered to be a loss of honor.

 

Suroth knows Liandrin was a black ajah cast down and given to her for punishment.

Read Suroth's PoV in the KoD Prologue - that's not why Liandrin was getting beaten. Suroth was just angry that Liandrin dared to look her in the eyes (she even had a strong urge to strangle her for that "Huge offence") and was slow in bringing her a message.

 

What about Amathera? Sure, she was a monarch who opposed the Seanchan, but does that make it OK for them to destroy her personality and turn her into a super submissive slave scared of her own shadow?

 

I don't see how servants being well-trained means their masters must be rapists.

That was not my point. The point was that those da'covale are so totally indoctrinated and conditioned into unquestionable obedience to the rules, that even when the self-preservation instinct should've made them run or defend themselves, not one of them did so. Does that not seem wrong to you? How do you think was such obedience achieved? My guess with plenty of harsh discipline and beatings.

[Erunion]

I will admit that much of my statement on the treatment of Da'covale comes from inference. As seen from Amethera's state and Liandrin/Suroth's POV's, it is safe to assume that the treatment of Da'covale is very, very harsh. On the case of sleeping with Damane, it isn't considered a problem because Damane are property, it's considered disgusting because Damane are animals. Too many of the Seanchan, it would be like sleeping with your favorite horse. I have seen no such stigma applied to Da'covale, and the clothing and mannerisms of the Cupbearers is certainly... Suggestive. Nevertheless, this is implicit evidence, not explicit.

[USURP888]

 

That was not my point. The point was that those da'covale are so totally indoctrinated and conditioned into unquestionable obedience to the rules, that even when the self-preservation instinct should've made them run or defend themselves, not one of them did so. Does that not seem wrong to you? How do you think was such obedience achieved? My guess with plenty of harsh discipline and beatings.

 

Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain. It would seem this saying does not apply only to Malkieri.

 

Perhaps they were loyal to the death? that is how I perceived it. High Lord Turak was a great man, second in line after Tuon. We see how much Selucia and Karede value their loyalty to Tuon, I am sure if Tuon dies, Selucia and all her property would commit suicide. When a shogun dies, all his samurai commit sepuku by tradition as a mark of great loyalty, maybe this is where RJ got the inspiration.

 

We look at da'covale and property and think they MUST resent their station. The book in fact makes it a point to say most property of the High Blood consider it a great honor. Perhaps we should look at them not in the lens of reality but how RJ wanted them seen and how he presented it.

[capuga]

We look at da'covale and property and think they MUST resent their station. The book in fact makes it a point to say most property of the High Blood consider it a great honor. Perhaps we should look at them not in the lens of reality but how RJ wanted them seen and how he presented it.

 

Actually, I doubt that most of the da'covale resent their station. That's what they're used to and what they expect. Doesn't make it OK. When your lot in life is to serve the Blood in skimpy outfits and do whatever you're told with no freedom, and then be expected to commit suicide if your master dies, that's a sucky life. Whether you (meaning the da'covale) realize it or not.

[USURP888]

We look at da'covale and property and think they MUST resent their station. The book in fact makes it a point to say most property of the High Blood consider it a great honor. Perhaps we should look at them not in the lens of reality but how RJ wanted them seen and how he presented it.

 

Actually, I doubt that most of the da'covale resent their station. That's what they're used to and what they expect. Doesn't make it OK. When your lot in life is to serve the Blood in skimpy outfits and do whatever you're told with no freedom, and then be expected to commit suicide if your master dies, that's a sucky life. Whether you (meaning the da'covale) realize it or not.

 

 

I agree. I certainly wouldn't want to be one.

[Suttree]

I don't see how servants being well-trained means their masters must be rapists.

 

This may be where the problem is. It seems as if your perception is skewed. Da'covale(the name means "those who are property") are not servants, well trained or otherwise. They are slaves that can be bought or sold along with animals or household goods. They have no choice or freedom in where or who they serve. In less you happen to be born into a so'jhin(hereditary just like nobility) family serving the upper blood your life is going to be miserable. Unlike animals, history shows there is not stigma in using property in such away and RJ implied it is done with the way the more beautiful ones are dressed, used as furniture and forced to do that suggestive dance that horrified Morgase. RJ was not direct with much of anything of a sexual nature, what is written is more than enough.

 

As for the topic of advancement think this quote from the BWB is interesting...

 

It is a rare honor for a commoner of free birth to be chosen as a high-level servant, but one that is eagerly sought, for it is one of the few ways to advance beyond one's station of birth. The loss of freedom, even for future generations, is believed a very small price to pay for such advancement.

 

So even though it is very rare, there is so little class advancement in Seanchan society that people are willing to give up there freedom and identity. Not just for themselves but for future generations as well, to even have a "rare" shot at advancement. Think about that for a second. Does that speak well for how the lower classes are treated? Seanchan society "is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place".

[David Selig]

 

That was not my point. The point was that those da'covale are so totally indoctrinated and conditioned into unquestionable obedience to the rules, that even when the self-preservation instinct should've made them run or defend themselves, not one of them did so. Does that not seem wrong to you? How do you think was such obedience achieved? My guess with plenty of harsh discipline and beatings.

 

Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain. It would seem this saying does not apply only to Malkieri.

 

Perhaps they were loyal to the death? that is how I perceived it. High Lord Turak was a great man, second in line after Tuon. We see how much Selucia and Karede value their loyalty to Tuon, I am sure if Tuon dies, Selucia and all her property would commit suicide. When a shogun dies, all his samurai commit sepuku by tradition as a mark of great loyalty, maybe this is where RJ got the inspiration.

 

We look at da'covale and property and think they MUST resent their station. The book in fact makes it a point to say most property of the High Blood consider it a great honor. Perhaps we should look at them not in the lens of reality but how RJ wanted them seen and how he presented it.

But they didn't know Turak was dead yet. In fact he wasn't at the time since Mat saw this during Rand's fight with Turak.

 

The high ranked da'covale (so'jhin, Seekers, etc) consider it a great honour, which is not surprising since their positions bring prestige and power. But they are a tiny minority of all da'covale. We don't know about the rest of the da'covale since there hasn't been a PoV of them.

[Mr Ares]

Why does it matter if laws are made by elected legislatures or proclamations from monarchs? Ruled people are ruled, whether or not they vote for their rulers, you've already admitted as much. Elected leaders can still hold the power of life and death over their citizens - some countries have, and others still had, the death penalty. So if ruled people are ruled, no difference between types of ruler, then who is not ruled? Those who rule, and those who are alone, clearly. So if you want to be free, there's only one thing for it, you'll have to strand yourself on a desert island.

 

I agree and that is exactly my point Mr Ares. I was pointing out that the Seanchan rules just the same as the Rest of the Randland rulers, if we accept that tne Randland can rule their way, we should accept that the Seanchan has their own ways as well.

I was hoping you'd strand yourself on a desert island. Don't you feel your heart yearning for freedom? The Seanchan can be said to rule in the same way as the rest of Randland in your overly broad sense of "everyone, everywhere, rules in the same way, because ruled people are ruled and therefore the modern US is no different to Seanchan." We can accept that the rulers in the Westlands are not ideal, but better than the Seanchan, even if Seanchan government has some merit. But they are not all the same.

 

Back when Mat first met Olver, a lordling was about to cut up the kid just for touching his horse and his own retainer thought it the lord's right. I submit that prior to Rand's coming this is the norm of the land.

Which land?

 

It was not said where that noble hailed from, He was a hunter of the horn was all the book said, but I remember a Tairen Lord talking to Mat at the stone expressing incredulity that they have been forbidden to abuse peasants anymore so I am assuming that prior to Rand's proclamation that is the norm.

In Tear, it might be. Not everywhere.

 

 

Not exactly. The Seanchan government has a well developed beauracracy, more so than any of the Westlands nations. This allows them to administer their empire - including the newly added provinces - very efficiently. Given that Tarabon was in civil war and Altara was a country only according to the maps, the Seanchan were able to provide immediate benefits. Such as food, luxuries like that. They also maintain a strict rule of law - but the law can include you being executed for not bowing enough. You can be tortured to death simply because a Seeker has some vague suspicion (or maybe just felt like it). The Tinkers like it because the Seanchan are willing to extend their protection to the Tinkers rather than treating them as outcasts. To the average person, who is ruling frequently doesn't matter that much, at least when things are going well. Fortuona could order a man killed on a whim, she could order one to try on an a'dam just to see what happens. She might not, but such behaviour is perfectly legitimate in an empress. But really, there's precious little chance of that happening to you and yours, is there? So let the empress have her fun. As long as the people have their bread and circuses, they'll get by and won't be too bothered about living in a police state.

 

yes, and if I remember your initial reply to my query answered this very well as well, some people will trade freedom for more security and some would want more freedom depending on their experience. In Seanchan offers more security and even Beslan himself back in TGS bowed to Tuon when she promised her that under the Seanchan rule the Altarans will be more free, more secure and more prosperous and when we next see him in TOM, Beslan who loved his people far more than station in life has become Tuon's most loyal ally. So based on that I can say that Beslan did not find Seanchan rule so restrictive for his people at all. I would then say that in Seanchan though there are some laws that restrict freedom, they have provided their people more security and indeed freedom from want and from hunger at the least.

The Altaran monarchy was essentially the monarch of Ebour Dar, so limited was their power - the Seanchan thus represent an opportunity to Altara that they don't to most of the other nations. They can give Altara a security and prosperity it couldn't give itself.

 

 

Only absolute monarchs rule absolutely. Given that Andor's military strength was concentrated in the hands of the nobility, with only a small standing army in the Queen's Guard, the answer to your question can be found in the following quote: political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. If the nobles have the swords, so they have the power. If the queen has the nobles, she has the swords, so she has the power. If the queen doesn't have the nobles, then she doesn't have the power. If the nobles don't have the swords, they don't have the power either. Of course, Elayne has the ability to become Andor's first absolute ruler, given that she has created a standing army. All she needs to do is defang the nobility. But as I said, she would be the first - previous Andoran monarchs were not absolute rulers.

 

Actually, they do - most successions are not wars. Even when wars are fought one must still gain the support of a majority of Great Houses. That makes it the very definition of an elected monarchy. It might not be a representative democracy, but no-one is claiming that it is - only that the queen is elected.

 

So they queen gets voted in, but it's not an elected monarchy? That's a good one.

 

There is a contradiction here I must say. If political power grows out of the barrel of a gun then there can never be an elected monarchy.

Why not? If political power grows out of the barrel of a gun, the question is who has the guns? Elayne has but a small army herself, and the support of several minor houses, with their own small armies, and a few Great Houses, and their own forces, against the remaining Houses and their forces.

The only reason Elayne needed support is not for the votes but for their armies.

Then how was she able to win with their votes before she got their armies?

In theory then, if for example there is no queen and a claimant has enough power on his/her own far above the rest of the other nobles in Andor, he would not need any of their support nor their votes. By virtue of the power of the gun, he would be king or queen of andor.

How would this claimant get more power than the other Great Houses when they have their own armies? Where is the contradiction in what I said? In the UK we have an army - lots of men with guns. Who decides who the next government is? Well, the men with the guns have a say - but so do all the people without. The mere fact of it being possible to seize power by use of force doesn't mean that those who are in a position to do it will want to, and therefore it is quite possible for elections to occur.

 

 

Seanchan gets to proclaim their Daughter of the Nine Moons once the Empress dies. Now, how did nobles in Seanchan get their titles?

Same way as those in the Westlands - most inherit, some are raised.

I agree, then again like I said before. The Seanchan rule, save the damane ( this is for suttree in case ) are just the same as the rest of Randland. No difference, different rules but the rulers rule.

Of course the rulers rule, they wouldn't be rulers if they didn't, making that statement practically devoid of meaning. There are more differences than just damane, but if we leave aside all the differences, yes the Seanchan are the same as the Westlands. And, leaving aside all the differences, Barack Obama is exactly the same as Fortuona.

 

 

Personally, I think the nobles in the Westlands are as bad as the Seanchan. I think the Aes Sedai are as bad as the Seanchan (the way the "try" men who can channel, as though they had some choice in being able to channel and going mad, makes me ill and their treatment of those men is no better than the way the Seanchan treat women who can channel).

I'd say AS treatment of men is far better than Seanchan treatment of damane. One destroys your identity, with the intention of being inescapable, the other leaves you with depression but the possibility of recovery.

 

Were I a non-channeler in the WoT world, I'd want all channelers collared. The Aes Sedai are the equivalent to having a bunch of people walking around with nuclear warheads who claim they won't use them unless they are "threatened", while demanding everyone bow down and kiss their feet and insisting on being obeyed (all while you're supposed to believe they won't nuke you if you don't obey them). They're dangerous, controlling, arrogant, and untrustworthy. So yeah, if I had to live in that world, I'd say leash them - unless and until they can prove they are just "normal" people and don't expect special treatment anymore. The Wise Ones do a semi-fair job of this, but even they are arrogant and obnoxious and controlling.

Guilty until proven innocent. That's what you're advocating. One must look at all channeling groups for a fairer picture - Kin, Novices, Accepted, Ayyad, Windfinders, AoL AS, and Asha'man need to be factored in. Are all of these groups arrogant? Do they all walk around demanding people kiss their feet? Or does it depend on the group or individual? After all, if you indoctrinate people to believe they are better than others then they will probably come to believe this. I say that if people prove they cannot be trusted with power, then the power must be taken away from them, but there is no need for preemptive action.

 

 

For the most part I agree with your post, especially the conclusion. Seanchan offers greater security and Randland offers greater freedom.

The Westlands are not a monolithic bloc, they are a bunch of countries, and even some unclaimed land, and different places will offer different degrees of freedom and protection. Take the TR for example - prior to the start of the series they had no government interference, having the freedom to get on with things as they wanted, while also being very secure (due to natural defences and isolation). Seanchan has precious little to offer them. Andor in general seems better on the freedom front than Seanchan while not sacrificng much, if anything, in terms of security. Illian as well seems not too bad, though we have spent less time there than Andor so it's hard to judge. TV loses nothing to the Seanchan on either front. In fact, given the Empire has a history of being wracked by violent conflict it can't guarantee security. As it is, they were able to benefit civil war-wracked Tarabon and disunited Altara - thus an immediate benefit in terms of security. Meanwhile Rand was (eventually) able to restore order to Arad Doman, thus providing the security, but not really curbing freedoms. Thus the Seanchan model is deeply flawed in terms of what it can offer - a diminishing of freedom, but not always a gain in security.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

"Were I a non-channeler in the WoT world, I'd want all channelers collared. The Aes Sedai are the equivalent to having a bunch of people walking around with nuclear warheads who claim they won't use them unless they are "threatened", while demanding everyone bow down and kiss their feet and insisting on being obeyed (all while you're supposed to believe they won't nuke you if you don't obey them). They're dangerous, controlling, arrogant, and untrustworthy. So yeah, if I had to live in that world, I'd say leash them - unless and until they can prove they are just "normal" people and don't expect special treatment anymore. The Wise Ones do a semi-fair job of this, but even they are arrogant and obnoxious and controlling."

 

So, you would punish people for their potential? If you could put that off, maybe you ought to be collared for that ability. If you can order channelers' lives bound for their possible threat to you, they should be able to have you Compulsed into a pet for your definite threat to them. You're being completely and utterly hypocritical, and while it doesn't matter as far as channelers go (there aren't any in the real world), such thinking has had horrific real life consequences.

[Durinax]

"Were I a non-channeler in the WoT world, I'd want all channelers collared. The Aes Sedai are the equivalent to having a bunch of people walking around with nuclear warheads who claim they won't use them unless they are "threatened", while demanding everyone bow down and kiss their feet and insisting on being obeyed (all while you're supposed to believe they won't nuke you if you don't obey them). They're dangerous, controlling, arrogant, and untrustworthy. So yeah, if I had to live in that world, I'd say leash them - unless and until they can prove they are just "normal" people and don't expect special treatment anymore. The Wise Ones do a semi-fair job of this, but even they are arrogant and obnoxious and controlling."

 

So, you would punish people for their potential? If you could put that off, maybe you ought to be collared for that ability. If you can order channelers' lives bound for their possible threat to you, they should be able to have you Compulsed into a pet for your definite threat to them. You're being completely and utterly hypocritical, and while it doesn't matter as far as channelers go (there aren't any in the real world), such thinking has had horrific real life consequences.

it does have horrific real life consequences, remember the spanish inquisition people burned for being a bit different. Same type of deal, except the seanchan dont kill them they enslave them and bind them to imperial power

[Suttree]

When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

No they are treating Mat with respect. They have heard tell of his exploits from the Band, your average Andoran has little idea what the Prince of the Raven even means let alone thinks that the Seanchan have a superior government to their own or summat like that.

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are.

 

Actually was rereading ToM and the very first person we see discuss the rumors...

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

"Aye," Chet continued, "many are askin' after the Leader of the Band"

 

and then later...

 

ToM

"Master Cauthon?" one of the men said. "You mean the Raven Prince?"....The two stepped out into the rain as Mat tied on the belt. "Raven Prince?" she asked.

 

The gaurdsmen got it wrong, while Birgitte doesn't know what it means and makes no connection to the Seanchan. If the General of Andor doesn't know the title then commoners most certainly do not. It is just another fantastical name to go along with the other rumors.

[Stitch]

If the non seanchan folk knew that Mat was the Raven Prince and actually knew what that meant... there is a good chance many would try to imprison/kill him

[USURP888]

When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

No they are treating Mat with respect. They have heard tell of his exploits from the Band, your average Andoran has little idea what the Prince of the Raven even means let alone thinks that the Seanchan have a superior government to their own or summat like that.

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are.

 

Actually was rereading ToM and the very first person we see discuss the rumors...

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

"Aye," Chet continued, "many are askin' after the Leader of the Band"

 

and then later...

 

ToM

"Master Cauthon?" one of the men said. "You mean the Raven Prince?"....The two stepped out into the rain as Mat tied on the belt. "Raven Prince?" she asked.

 

The gaurdsmen got it wrong, while Birgitte doesn't know what it means and makes no connection to the Seanchan. If the General of Andor doesn't know the title then commoners most certainly do not. It is just another fantastical name to go along with the other rumors.

 

I don't understand how those quotes equate to the people not knowing what the Raven Prince mean. The captain knows who the Raven Prince is, Guybon certainly knows. Mat's army are the ones spreading their stories and exploits.

 

the non seanchan folk knew that Mat was the Raven Prince and actually knew what that meant... there is a good chance many would try to imprison/kill him

 

why is that? because the readers hate the seanchan? I don't see non seanchan commoners hating them, in fact the books emphasize that tinkers, invaded folks and even Rand feel the seanchan are good rulers.

 

Thom has told Perrin about Mat's marriage, I'll assume Faile knows but she did not "imprison or kill him".

Moiraine was told about Mat's marriage to the Empress, she's Aes Sedai but I did not see her expressing even a flash of anger, gratitude aside. Not even a flicker of distaste.

Elayne told Mat she wants to know who she is married to in their upcoming dinner, and I don't see Mat, Thom and Talmanes lying about Tuon. We see Elayne helping mat with the Gholam afterwards as well.

[Stitch]

Their NEIGHBORS dont think the Seanchan are great though, on account of the Seanchan want to invade everyone.... In fact I think youd find it hard to find any noble (perhaps excluding Berelain since she shares ancestry) who would be happy to see the Seanchan. Therefore killing or kidnapping Mat and using him for leverage with the Seanchan is a reasonably wise move (though they would have to take precautions against invasion thereafter... but since the seanchan intend to do so anyway...)

 

Its fine for the tinkers who were victimised elsewhere, as for the invaded folks - those that disagree have largely been killed off (and the others know well enough to keep it quiet) and sure Rand was able to pick out that he had done a worse job than the Seanchan (but to be honest - he is hardly a real ruler, so if you think about it - even the High Lords in Tear who abused, raped and overtaxed their peasants were STILL better rulers than Rand in terms of administration at least)

 

Basically the Seanchan are all about rearranging the current order of things.... those people who are on the bottom of the heap at the moment are likely to welcome change (since from the bottom, almost every direction is an improvement) despite the possibility that everyone else in society (except themselves) may lose out. It would be like me taking everyone's money and saying I will hand out that money to whom I please, the people who are broke (or all but) are more likely to accept me doing so, because even if I keep the majority of it, they will be no worse off and perhaps better off.

[David Selig]

Rand was able to pick out that he had done a worse job than the Seanchan (but to be honest - he is hardly a real ruler, so if you think about it

This is a very good point. Rand, for all his good intentions, is just too busy on too many fronts and have too little time to spare for each of the realms controlled by him. And he's trying to implement major changes in Tear and Cairhien against the wishes of the nobility, most of whom are resisting every step of the way, which makes it even tougher. The fearsome reputation of the Dragon Reborn as someone who'd break the society and die soon after all that makes it really tough for him to establish anything long term. He's done admirably well for someone with so little training in governing and statesmanship, but he didn't have a system or administration he can rely on like the Seanchan.

 

Rand also got only a brief glimpse at life under Seanchan rule and he was more than halfway insane at this point. So his opinion of the Seanchan rule is not that reliable really.

[FarShainMael]

If the non seanchan folk knew that Mat was the Raven Prince and actually knew what that meant... there is a good chance many would try to imprison/kill him

 

Thery might in any case, regardless of the Seanchan, because ravens are regarded as 'the Dark One's eyes'.

[Suttree]

When Mat is being called Prince of the Ravens in Andor, it is not with fear but with awe, even the people of andor treats that title with respect.

 

No they are treating Mat with respect. They have heard tell of his exploits from the Band, your average Andoran has little idea what the Prince of the Raven even means let alone thinks that the Seanchan have a superior government to their own or summat like that.

 

I see, so why don't they call Mat, the Leader of the Band then? The whole of Randland knows who the Seanchan are.

 

Actually was rereading ToM and the very first person we see discuss the rumors...

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

"Aye," Chet continued, "many are askin' after the Leader of the Band"

 

and then later...

 

ToM

"Master Cauthon?" one of the men said. "You mean the Raven Prince?"....The two stepped out into the rain as Mat tied on the belt. "Raven Prince?" she asked.

 

The gaurdsmen got it wrong, while Birgitte doesn't know what it means and makes no connection to the Seanchan. If the General of Andor doesn't know the title then commoners most certainly do not. It is just another fantastical name to go along with the other rumors.

 

I don't understand how those quotes equate to the people not knowing what the Raven Prince mean. The captain knows who the Raven Prince is, Guybon certainly knows. Mat's army are the ones spreading their stories and exploits.

 

the non seanchan folk knew that Mat was the Raven Prince and actually knew what that meant... there is a good chance many would try to imprison/kill him

 

why is that? because the readers hate the seanchan? I don't see non seanchan commoners hating them, in fact the books emphasize that tinkers, invaded folks and even Rand feel the seanchan are good rulers.

 

 

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

[Thaed]

 

And in a slavery system, if you had sex with your slave, that was not considered a rape usually - it was well within the right of the slave owners. There's no evidence that it's different in Seanchan or that it's considered to be a loss of honor.

 

 

 

Just read through this thread yesterday and this morning picked up on my Winter's Heart Re-read and we get this from Egeanin, referring to Domon.

 

 

WH A Matter of Property CH21 Pg487 in PB

 

"And now he was so'jhin. There was nothing wrong with bedding your own so'jhin, of course, so long as you did not flaunt the fact"

Emphasis mine.

 

I believe this is one of the few explicit times where we are told that the blood sleep with their property, and not simply left to infer it.

[USURP888]

 

As to the first you asked why they dont call him Leader of the Band? The quote shows they clearly do, in fact it is the first thing he is called. To the second quote The Captain gets the name wrong and Birgitte in the context of the conversation clearly has no idea what it means. One of the most powerful people in Andor doesn't equate it w/ the Seanchan nor did the Captain. This being the case there is very little chance the commoners know it as anything besides a cool name. No idea why you mention Guybon, he doesn't even bring it up in their conversation as they enter the palace. You would think he would if they were all in "awe" of the title since he mentions just about everything else of note Mat has done. You really need to start backing up your claims with quotes as they are frequently wrong in regards to details in the story.

 

As for your point above there are many non-seanchan commoners that hate them. The Domani and Taraboners are in open revolt fighting a guerilla war against the Seanchan. Tom in KoD references commoners that resent them not including people who have had a wife or relation collared. He then goes on to say the Seanchan will find quite a different reception in Amadacia and Tarabon and indeed they do.

 

so mat is called the leader of the band by some and the raven prince by others. he's both. just because chet says he's the leader of the band means all commoners think the same? wow that's fantastic logical leap right there.

 

just because a noble does not know does not mean the commoners don't know? I don't understand your logic that nobles should know things first when in fact the band's people are telling their stories in Inns and with fellow mercenaries, logic follows that the commoners would know first before nobles.

 

Guybon knows a lot of stories concerning mat from the commoners, he asks mat about those stories, don't you think he'd get that they call him raven prince as well?

 

in the chapter of a Cup of Kaf in KOD: Loune told Karede that their armies bloodied by mat were composed mostly of amadicians and taraboners. it's the nobles that hate the seanchan not the commoners.

 

you really need to start being less arrogant thinking your opinions are facts and not subject to debate.