Aviendha's new talent

[Trib4l]

But how would that have affected saidin?

[Guest Majsju]

Elayne mentions how the threads behaves odd when she is picking the weave apart, ie before it exploded.

[grump]

icspots My thanks When I started this thats what I meant but reading back I only know what I meant cause I wrote it, then the unweaving became an interesting topic itself

[TheDiceAgain...]

After they used the Bowl and then noticed all the Power being expended in Ebou Dar, they were still easily able to dispatch the first scouting raken that had been sent to investigate all the Power they'd been expending. Then, exhausted as she was, Elayne was still able to reliably make the Gateway to Andor. It wasn't until the damane shielded an utterly spent Elayne in that field in Andor that the Gateway collapsed explosively, and it wasn't until after that explosion that the Power became unreliable in the vicinity of the farm outside Ebou Dar.

 

As Trib4l said, how would this effect saidin? The only thing that we know was using saidin in the general vicinity of Ebou Dar at the time was the Bowl of the Winds. Therefore, it more likely stands to reason that the overuse of the Bowl is the reason the Power seems strange when Rand and the Asha'man show up. The exploding gateway was a construct of saidar only and though very destructive, seems like small potatoes compared to an immense, continent-wide weave of both halves of the Source such as was created by the Bowl.

[grump]

Remember back in TDR the dream ring too close to the rings just about kept one of the girs from not making it through How far was Packhorses of the stuff from the bowl?

[rochaid]

sorry bob t,but as others have already shown,it was the ter'angreal stressing that caused the wierdness of the power

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj -

 

First of all she has no idea what she is attempting to do. Secondly, she has no referrent. Picking at weaves is SOMETHING THAT IS NOT DONE!!! Anyone studying at the Tower who tried such a thing would be birched.

 

She very inexpertly picks at the first thread. It fuzzes and spits. Aviendha then tells her about how the threads become slick and difficult to handle. And, Lo, they become slick and difficult to handle.

 

Nothing at all weird in any of that.

 

The explosion that later happened would have resonated throught all of the Power. Remember, it's The One Power, not the two power.

 

Think of the Power like a carrier wave. Men work with one sideband, women work with the other sideband. Make enough noise on either sideband and the whole carrier wave resonates, and some of that energy bleeds into the other sideband. That's what happened when the gateway exploded.

 

For months afterward, both halves of the Power were unreliable in the area around Ebou Dar. The sul'dam were having fits. None of their damane seemed able to reliably work any spell.

 

None of that happened until after the gateway exploded. Avi was flinging fireballs back through the gateway. Damane on the other side were, at first, and until ordered to stop, flinging lightning bolts through the gateway from their side.

 

Those who could were cvhanneling up a storm without any hitches. It isn't until after the explosion that the Power in that area gets wonky.

[Luckers]

RJ has said it was the Bowl of Winds at a post-tPoD signing in virginia. Additionally, the threads behaved oddly when Elayne wove the gateway as well, and before then she notice saidar hovering in the air. And finally one power wierdness was localised to only the Ebou Dar side of the gateway, Nynaeve used the one power on the Andoran side and there was no wierdness.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Point me to the quote. It's certainly one I've never seen.

[Luckers]

I imagine what you havn't seen would fill a library.

 

It was at a signing... as in a live interview. It's referanced on the WoT FAQ, and no unsubstantiated quotes stay on that website.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Jordan said so. At a post-TPOD signing in northern Virginia [21 November, 1998], Jordan confirmed outright in plain language that the Bowl, not the unweaving, was the cause of the One Power weirdness, and that it was a case of overstressing a ter'angreal. From John Novak's report:

He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but also along the "spokes" which radiated from that place.

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.12_op-eboudar.html

 

Thats the best quote as I can find ... the same page lists several other textual and story based reasons as well. In short, this is the way it is, but I don't really expect you to believe it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As somebody once said, ( paraphrasing here ) "What's published in the books trumps what reportedly was said at some signing."

 

So, what's actually in "The Path of Daggers"?

 

-Unweaving-

...They had the knowledge of weather to use the Bowl properly, yet even Renaile agreed - if reluctantly - that the more Power directed through the Bowl, the better the chance of being able to heal the weather. It must be directed with a precision impossible except for one woman alone or a circle, though. A full circle of thirteen it had to be.

Note: "They had the knowledge of weather to use the Bowl properly..." A full circle of thirteen would provide the necessary precision.

 

-The Breaking Storm-

At that moment, Caire drew deeply. Saidar flooded through Elayne, almost as much as she could hold; an unbroken ring of light blazed into being, joining the women in the circle, brighter wherever one used an angreal, but nowhere faint. She watched closely as Caire channeled, forming a complex weave of all Five Powers, a four-pointed star that she laid atop the Bowl with exquisite precision. The star touched, and Elayne gasped. Once, she had channeled a trickle into the Bowl - in Tel'aran'rhiod, to be sure, and only a reflection of the Bowl, though still a dangerous thing to do - and that clear crystal had turned a pale blue, and the carved clouds moved. Now, the Bowl of the Winds was blue, the bright blue of a summer sky, and fleecy white clouds billowed across it.

 

The four-pointed star became five-pointed, the composition of the weave altered slightly, and the Bowl was a green sea with great heaving waves. Five points became six, and it was another sky, a different blue, darker, winter perhaps, with purple clouds heavy with rain or snow. Seven points, and a gray-green sea raged in storm. Eight points and sky. Nine and sea, and suddenly, Elayne felt the Bowl itself drawing saidar, a wild torrent far greater than all the circle together could manage.

So, they are expending a lot of Power, and the Bowl itself is drawing yet more Power. Too much Power? We've already seen what happens when an *angreal draws too much with the doorway in Cairhein. We'll see it again with the female Choeden Kal. Draw too much power through the *angreal, and it melts. The Bowl does not melt. When Caire abruptly releases the Source after she has completed her weave, the Bowl remains. Whole, intact and looking much like it did before they started.

The Bowl of the Winds went quiet at last, just a wide bowl of clear crystal, but decorated now with towering waves. Saidar still seemed to be there, though, not being wielded by anyone, not visible, but in dimly felt flashes like those that had played around the Bowl at the end.

Are those flashes significant? Yes, but not as an indication of anything to do with the Bowl itself.

-beginning with Nynaeve-

"I can almost feel an echo of saidar. It must be this thing!"

 

"No," Elayne said slowly. "I can feel it too." Not just the dimly perceived crackling in the air, and not an echo, exactly. More the shadow of and echo, so faint that it was as if she were feeling someone use saidar at a.... She turned. On the horizon to the south, lightning flashed, dozens of bolts vivid silver-blue against the afternoon sky. Very near to Ebou Dar.

What they are sensing is the work of the damane in the Seanchan attack on Ebou Dar which was going on at the same time that they were using the Bowl.

-next-

"Shadowspawn!" someone screamed, and suddenly women were embracing saidar all over the hilltop. Balls of fire shot up from Merilille's hands, from Careane's and Sareitha's as fast as they could throw. A huge winged shape enveloped in flame tumbled out of the sky trailing oily black smoke, falling just beyond the cliff.

 

"There's another one!" Kirstian shouted, pointing. A second winged creature dove away from the hill, body as big as a horse, ribbed wings spanning thirty paces or more, long neck stretched out before and longer tail streaming behind. Two figures crouched low on its back. A storm of fire rained after it, quickest of all from Aviendha and the Sea Folk, who made no throwing gesture as part of their weaving. A hail of fire so thick it seemed that Fire must be forming itself out of the air, and the thing dodged behind the hill on the other side of the farm and appeared to vanish.

Is anybody having any trouble drawing saidar or making it do what they desire? Not so's you'd notice. Not the way it's written on the page.

 

These are the people at the exact epicenter of where the Power had just supposedly been so "overstressed" by the Bowl that it was no longer reliable. Acting at the time closest to that "overstress", when the effects would have still been the most concentrated, and the Power at its most unreliable. None of them has the least trouble touching the Source or making it do exactly what they desire.

 

What Jordan put on the page is entirely at odds with his reported later statement.

[rochaid]

so your going to completely ignore a direct quote by jordan saying that it was indeed the over stressing of the ter'angreal?o.k

 

They had the knowledge of weather to use the Bowl properly..." A full circle of thirteen would provide the necessary precision.

 

after the bowl being lost for countless years how could they have complete knowledge of what the bowl could do?they knew how to use it,but not on what scale.or what the effects could be.

 

So, they are expending a lot of Power, and the Bowl itself is drawing yet more Power. Too much Power? We've already seen what happens when an *angreal draws too much with the doorway in Cairhein. We'll see it again with the female Choeden Kal. Draw too much power through the *angreal, and it melts. The Bowl does not melt. When Caire abruptly releases the Source after she has completed her weave, the Bowl remains. Whole, intact and looking much like it did before they started.

 

we don't know what caused the doorway in carhein to melt.its just speculation.the bowl is not an angreal,it is a ter'angreal,drawing some of the power its self,which an angreal does not do,so comparisons are not really valid here,we don't even have proof over stressed angreal melt.As for the choedan kal it is because of nynaeve the statue melts,why would the female one melt when the male one,which used so much more of the power,not be effected?

 

These are the people at the exact epicenter of where the Power had just supposedly been so "overstressed" by the Bowl that it was no longer reliable. Acting at the time closest to that "overstress", when the effects would have still been the most concentrated, and the Power at its most unreliable. None of them has the least trouble touching the Source or making it do exactly what they desire.

 

does anyone heve problem drawing on the power due to the weirdness?in my recollection it is just weaves that are effected.they are also in stress,rand didn't notice the weirdness,so it is possible to miss it.and whos to say the wierdness would kick in straight away?just like that?others have also already mentioned wierdness before the explosion.

 

and then there is the question of simply why would a explosion created by the one power cause such effects?and how could jordan make such a big mistake?

[Guest Majsju]

after the bowl being lost for countless years how could they have complete knowledge of what the bowl could do?they knew how to use it,but not on what scale.or what the effects could be.

 

Indeed. One of the things RJ constantly returns to is how basically every single character in the series occasionally makes the assumption that they possess the full knowledge when they actually are very far from that.

 

Renaile doesn't have the first clue what she is talking about. The Bowl has been lost for a very long time, and even if she actually had the knowledge to use the Bowl properly, it was never meant to be used to change the weather over such a vaste area, and certainly not so drastically. We're not talking about calming down a storm because you have to sail at that specific time, we're talking about changing a season that has been fixed by the DO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, I'm ignoring a reported quote of Jordan's. It wouldn't be the first time he has misspoken about things in the books. Or, that what he actually said has been misreported.

 

What he wrote does not support what he reportedly said.

 

Oh, and rochaid, reread Rand's attack on the Seanchan. He very definitely does notice the weirdness. He just bulls through anyway... and as a result ends up killing as many of his own troops as he does of the enemy.

 

"The Path of Daggers" - Gathering Clouds:

Snarling, Rand hauled Tai'dashar around, watching the archer adjust to follow. He seized saidin and sweet life and filth poured into him together. His head spun. There were two archers. Bile rose in his throat as he fought wild, uncontrolled surges of the Power that tried to sear him to the bone and freeze his flesh solid. He could not control them; it was all he could do to stay alive. Desperately he fought to clear his sight, to be able to see well enough to weave the flows he could barely form, with nausea flooding him as strongly as the Power. He thought he heard Bashere shout. Two archers loosed.

 

Rand's first experience, but not his last, with how difficult it would be to work saidin in that area.

 

He's already holding saidin before they make the first gateways to initiate the attack. They are within sight of the mountains where they wish to go. Even at that remove, Rand notes how much more sickening it is to simply hold saidin than ever before. As the attack progresses, and as they get closer to the farm and Ebou Dar, the greater the weirdness becomes.

 

That farm is both the site of the weather working and the gateway that exploded.

 

I think the Bowl started it. The simultaneous attack on Ebou Dar aggravated it. But, the exploding gateway was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

After all, far more Power gets expended in Cleansing saidin than was used in working the weather. Every channeler on the planet was aware of the Cleansing, few were aware of the weather working. Yet, there is no weirdness, nor any aftereffects in the vicinity of what used to be Shadar Logoth.

 

If the Bowl caused the kind of problems he wrote in "The Path of Daggers", then the Cleansing should have caused even more. Since it didn't, I'm forced to conclude that actual cause of the weirdness with the Power in that particular area had another cause. The most likely seems to be the exploding gateway.

[rochaid]

so he does feel the weirdness,i was wrong,this does not really further your argument.and it is not nescessarily the weirdness that causes rands lightning slaughter of his and seanchan troops,i believe it is due to callandor's increasing of the taint.

 

and how does this argue that it was the explosion that caused the wierdness,all evidence points toward it being the ter'angreal,you seemingly choose to ignore my other points disrefuting your points,also many are showing you other-wise.

 

http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.12_op-eboudar.html

just to show you more proof,and i call it proof,because that what it is

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's not proof. It's a decently reasoned set of conclusions, based mostly on what some third party reported that Jordan said.

 

Remember the Choeden Kal? The two most dangerous artifacts known during the AoL? So dangerous that they were never used? So dangerous that it was feared that to use them would destroy the world?

 

They get used. One gets so overused that it melts. Both saidin and saidar are woven in greater quantity, and with greater strength than ever before. The world is not destroyed. There are no aftereffects.

 

The Bowl, on the other hand, remains intact. That would seem to indicate that it was not, in the least, overstressed. However much Power was funneled through it, and that it drew into itself, must have been well within its capability.

 

If things are to be at all consistent, then either the Bowl should have melted, or there should be identical effects at Shadar Logoth.

[cloudcrono]

Ok lets say you are correct and the real reason for the disturbance in the area is the gateway weave being unraveled by Elayne.

 

If this is the case then surely there would be several other things that need to be described in the book but I'll get to those.

 

These are the reasons that I feel that make the strange disturbance based on the bowl and not on the exploding gateway.

 

1) Why are there no effects fealt or mentioned on the Andoran side after the weave has exploded? Not only are these effects not fealt in the Andoran region right after but they are not fealt for several books in Andor at all. Meanwhile the area by Ebou Dar has people weaving this way and that for the next several books.

 

2) Why in the earlier books when Aviendha is training to become a wise one and FAILS to take apart a weaving, on several occasions(as mentioned by her), are no effects fealt or mentioned by any of the other characters in the waste?

 

3) Lastly, in regard to the Choedans being used it is explicitly said that they were meant to be used for extremely large amounts of power. Furthermore while as in the case of the bowl where saidar is focused on the bowl the Choedans are only amplifiers for what you can hold. In other words they have an express limit on how much you can channel using them but the bowl of winds instead requires you (or a circle) to channel through it.

 

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying but in short it makes more sense to me that the Choedans should be able to handle large amounts of power while as the bowl of winds really shouldn't be able to handle so much.

 

While I will agree with you that maybe Robert Jordan didn't say those things it doesn't seem likely that someone would go to the trouble of lying, misquoting or misunderstanding him enough to obscure the real truth in this matter.

 

Let me know what other observations you have because in all honesty it's really interesting.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Note: "They had the knowledge of weather to use the Bowl properly..." A full circle of thirteen would provide the necessary precision.

 

Using a tool properly on a larger scale than that tool was designed for can still create unanticipated side effects. And not always destroy the tool.

 

There are unanswered textual questions if the "strangeness" in the Source around Ebou Dar is caused by the failed "unweaving":

 

Why is it only around Ebou Dar, and not around Andor as well, where the actual unweaving took place?

 

Why does the "strangeness" affect saidin? The unweaving was purely a saidar phenomenon, while the use of the Bowl clearly was not.

 

Why does the "strangeness" cover a much larger area than anything Elayne could do unaided?

 

And as I said, the concept that "What was published in the books trumps outside quotes" pretty much only applies when what is in the books conflicts or contradicts what is in the quotes. Nothing in the books contradicts the idea that the "strangeness" was caused by overstressing the Bowl.

[rochaid]

how can elayne feeling the weirdness before the explosion be called anything but proof?

 

the flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free,then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped

tPoD;threads,p.140

 

this describes the weirdness in exactly the same way as dashiva and others do.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ah, the joy of textual evidence .... :D thanks rochaid.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's quote the whole passage:

Right from the first Elayne wished that she had asked Aviendha for the woman-cloaked-in-her-own-hair; she was weary, too, and all the saidar she could draw was barely enough to form the weave so it would work. The flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped; channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever. At least the familiar vertical slash of silver appeared as it should, and widened into an opening right alongside the cistern...

 

She is mentally and physically drained by what they have all just been through. Her capacity and control are not at their normal level. "...channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times..."

 

The flows wavering and then snapping into place, while indicative, proves nothing in itself under the circumstances she was experiencing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

"channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever. "

 

In other words, there was a noticeable DIFFERENCE between other times when she had been weary and this time. Something other than tiredness was affecting her weave.

 

The flows wavering and then snapping into place, while indicative, proves nothing in itself under the circumstances she was experiencing.

 

First of all, they didn't "waver", it was as if they were "trying to twist free". Second, it does constitute a form of proof if you can show a correspondence to similar occurrences elsewhere:

 

Corlan Dashiva (aka Aginor/Osan'gar) says to Rand, "This is a simple ward, but it did not want to form, then it snapped together like pulling out of my hands." (The Path of Daggers, chapter 24 A Time for Iron)

 

Sounds exactly like Elayne's threads "trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped". One was before the "unweaving", and one was after, but both were after the use of the Bowl.

 

Textual evidence that MATCH outside statements make for a stronger case. You are, of course, free to not believe it, but the strangeness was caused by the Bowl being overstressed, not the unweaving.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Your case is a strong one, and very possibly what the author intended. But, it's really, really sloppy authorship.

 

BTW, if you read the passage, "The flows wavered in her grasp..."

 

What we have here is a unique outcome laid to a side-effect of a non-unique event. If this outcome is really supposed to be a result of an *angreal being overstressed, then there needed to be an equal outcome at Shadar Logoth. There wasn't.

[rochaid]

the bowl of winds is a ter'angreal,not an angreal.so it is a unique event.

 

the choedan kal was not over-stressed,(the way i read it),it was made to use suge vast amounts of the power,it was nynaeve's use of the CK that caused it to melt,or else it would stand to reaon that the male one would also melt,considering it used so much more of the one power than its female counterpart.

 

but at least you are beginning to see that it was indeed due to the bowl :D