Caemlyn battle

[Durinax]

I thought Byar tried to kill Perrin because he was a darkfriend working for Greandal?

Unknown. He may have been a DF or simply under her compulsion.

he's likely a DF since he has been zealously trying to kill perrin since the start

[Sharaman]

My bet is Compulsion at some stage - Byar is a zealot, not a DF.

G would have found it easy to turn his antipathy and suspicion of Perrin into a belief that Perrin is a DF.

[Carnivean]

I don't see any need for it to be compulsion. To me this is like Taim having to be Moridin. What is wrong with it just being them that lead themselves to that point. Byar is archetypal as the zealot that puts his singular belief ahead of the overall beliefs. For me, he'd built Perrin into the ultimate evil in his mind and just needed to do something about it, but I might have missed something in the books.

[herid]

My bet is Compulsion at some stage - Byar is a zealot, not a DF.

G would have found it easy to turn his antipathy and suspicion of Perrin into a belief that Perrin is a DF.

+1. Byar is a zealot, not a DF, much like Masema was.

There is also a very short Byar POV at Falme in TGH that makes it very clear that he is not a DF.

 

Gaunt face set with grim purpose, Byar galloped with the sinking sun behind him and never looked back. He had seen all he needed to, all he could with that accursed fog. The legion was dead, Lord Captain Geofram Bornhald was dead, and there was only one explanation for that; Darkfriends had betrayed them, Darkfriends like that Perrin of the Two Rivers. That word he had to carry to Dain Bornhald, the Lord Captain’s son, with the Children of the Light watching Tar Valon. But he had worse to tell, and to none less than Pedron Niall himself. He had to tell what he had seen in the sky above Falme. He flogged his horse with his reins and never looked back.

-TGH, Ch 48

 

But Byar's hatred of Perrin is too irrational for it to be mere zealotry.

Also, the fact that he was Graedal's tool speaks strongly of compulsion too. Graendal was too paranoid and used compulsion on all her tools.

[Alternate34]

But Byar's hatred of Perrin is too irrational for it to be mere zealotry.

Also, the fact that he was Graedal's tool speaks strongly of compulsion too. Graendal was too paranoid and used compulsion on all her tools.

 

I don't think this is necessarily true. Zealots are irrational by definition. Additionally, I don't think he is too irrational. Perrin's eyes look funny. Perrin killed some Children. Perrin was present for all the insanity at Falme. Perrin was present for all the insanity at the Two Rivers. The Children are already a little of kilter in their senses of justice. That provides enough evidence to lead to Byar's zealotry.

 

He may have been Compelled (Compulsed?), but it wouldn't be necessary at all.

[Sid]

Oooh, I'd forgotten about that PoV! I have to agree that he's not an actual DF herid. For the level of irrational behavior he exhibits in ToM (to the point that even Dain Bornhald went so far as to kill him), it is almost certainly Compulsion.

[Wheel of Thyme]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I agree here...also, Masema as well was provided with delusions that made him the lovely rabid man we all loved to loathe.

 

However, Robert Jordan WAS fond of balance...so, Perrin had Aram as betrayer, Rand had Masema, why cant Mat be betrayed by a deceived and maddened Olver?

 

Its an interesting idea...I both like and dislike it at the same time.

[tkroll]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I agree here...also, Masema as well was provided with delusions that made him the lovely rabid man we all loved to loathe.

 

However, Robert Jordan WAS fond of balance...so, Perrin had Aram as betrayer, Rand had Masema, why cant Mat be betrayed by a deceived and maddened Olver?

 

Its an interesting idea...I both like and dislike it at the same time.

What if mat were betrayed by someone else though? instead of Olver maybe Tal or someone else within the Band. It might not go too well when it comes out Matt's decision to sit on Verin's letter allowed the fighting in Caemlyn. Not saying either one is likely but Talamenes(spelling) has led the band in Matt's absence...

[Sharaman]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I agree here...also, Masema as well was provided with delusions that made him the lovely rabid man we all loved to loathe.

 

However, Robert Jordan WAS fond of balance...so, Perrin had Aram as betrayer, Rand had Masema, why cant Mat be betrayed by a deceived and maddened Olver?

 

Its an interesting idea...I both like and dislike it at the same time.

What if mat were betrayed by someone else though? instead of Olver maybe Tal or someone else within the Band. It might not go too well when it comes out Matt's decision to sit on Verin's letter allowed the fighting in Caemlyn. Not saying either one is likely but Talamenes(spelling) has led the band in Matt's absence...

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

[herid]

 

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

I don't think there is anything sinister in Daerid's absence. That's just BS not bothering to keep up with many minor characters that RJ introduced. A LOT of them dropped off and disappeared completely. Daerid is at least mentioned a couple of times. Many many others are simply gone. Just look at the Band only: Reimon, Carlomin and Edorion are never mentioned in tGS and ToM at all even though they were with Mat all that time and they used to be his regular drinking and gambling companions.

[Sharaman]

 

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

I don't think there is anything sinister in Daerid's absence. That's just BS not bothering to keep up with many minor characters that RJ introduced. A LOT of them dropped off and disappeared completely. Daerid is at least mentioned a couple of times. Many many others are simply gone. Just look at the Band only: Reimon, Carlomin and Edorion are never mentioned in tGS and ToM at all even though they were with Mat all that time and they used to be his regular drinking and gambling companions.

Daerid had roughly 1/2 the band with him, and he was supposedly heading for Carhein, while Talmanes went looking for Mat

Hence, the fact that he has disappeared could mean 1/2 the Band is MIA and is now possibly fighting for the Dark.

[herid]

 

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

I don't think there is anything sinister in Daerid's absence. That's just BS not bothering to keep up with many minor characters that RJ introduced. A LOT of them dropped off and disappeared completely. Daerid is at least mentioned a couple of times. Many many others are simply gone. Just look at the Band only: Reimon, Carlomin and Edorion are never mentioned in tGS and ToM at all even though they were with Mat all that time and they used to be his regular drinking and gambling companions.

Daerid had roughly 1/2 the band with him, and he was supposedly heading for Carhein, while Talmanes went looking for Mat

Hence, the fact that he has disappeared could mean 1/2 the Band is MIA and is now possibly fighting for the Dark.

they are not MIA. Elayne did have a part of the Band sent to Cairhien. If Daerid was with that group then that's where he is. and in any case why would the fact that they are not recently mentioned mean that that they are fighting for the Dark?!

[Sharaman]

 

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

I don't think there is anything sinister in Daerid's absence. That's just BS not bothering to keep up with many minor characters that RJ introduced. A LOT of them dropped off and disappeared completely. Daerid is at least mentioned a couple of times. Many many others are simply gone. Just look at the Band only: Reimon, Carlomin and Edorion are never mentioned in tGS and ToM at all even though they were with Mat all that time and they used to be his regular drinking and gambling companions.

Daerid had roughly 1/2 the band with him, and he was supposedly heading for Carhein, while Talmanes went looking for Mat

Hence, the fact that he has disappeared could mean 1/2 the Band is MIA and is now possibly fighting for the Dark.

they are not MIA. Elayne did have a part of the Band sent to Cairhien. If Daerid was with that group then that's where he is. and in any case why would the fact that they are not recently mentioned mean that that they are fighting for the Dark?!

 

It's not clear from ToM that Daerid's group landed up in Andor at all. (Edit: Up above, I meant Daerid and his 1/2 of the band was supposedlty heading for Andor not Carhein, according to Talmanes when he found Mat in KoD) The 1/2 of the band Elayne sent to Carhein could be 1/2 of Talmanes' group that got to Caemlyn along with Mat, courtesy Verin. If Daerid has not arrived in Andor at all, he may have been Compelled by Roedran=Demandred (yes, that is also an underlying assumption) and hence his 1/2 of the band could end up fighting for the Dark.

Just a possible plotline since we're discussing ways in which mat could be betrayed. `

[Glip]

My two cents....

 

I think Olver does have a connection to Birgitte (though not being Gaidal) which is hinted at again in ToM.

Iirc Birgitte is very concerned with Olver when she discovers Mat and Thom are in Caemlyn, I'd call that some measure of foreshadowing. So my bet is Birgitte has some role yet to play in Olvers life.

 

Anyway, Battle of Caemlyn....I think we are all forgetting the Ogier returning...

Caemlyn burning was a classic cliffhanger if I ever read one, mostly these get resolved right away in the next part.

I'd say there's already Ogier in Caemlyn fighting off the Trollocs, since we didn't get to see Caemlyn up close there has to be some resolve already in progress if we zoom into the Battle somewhere at the beginning of AMoL. Again, a classic cliffhanger.

[herid]

 

 

It's not clear from ToM that Daerid's group landed up in Andor at all. (Edit: Up above, I meant Daerid and his 1/2 of the band was supposedlty heading for Andor not Carhein, according to Talmanes when he found Mat in KoD)

Mat did meet up with them once he got to Caemlyn.

 

Mat's force had met up with Estean and the others that had gone ahead to Andor, and the Band was well and truly whole again.

-ToM, Ch 8

[Sharaman]

 

 

It's not clear from ToM that Daerid's group landed up in Andor at all. (Edit: Up above, I meant Daerid and his 1/2 of the band was supposedlty heading for Andor not Carhein, according to Talmanes when he found Mat in KoD)

Mat did meet up with them once he got to Caemlyn.

 

Mat's force had met up with Estean and the others that had gone ahead to Andor, and the Band was well and truly whole again.

-ToM, Ch 8

Ah ok - I thought Estean and Daerid had split up but the complete sentence can be interpreted as Estean+Daerid.

Tks

[FarShainMael]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I agree here...also, Masema as well was provided with delusions that made him the lovely rabid man we all loved to loathe.

 

However, Robert Jordan WAS fond of balance...so, Perrin had Aram as betrayer, Rand had Masema, why cant Mat be betrayed by a deceived and maddened Olver?

 

Its an interesting idea...I both like and dislike it at the same time.

What if mat were betrayed by someone else though? instead of Olver maybe Tal or someone else within the Band. It might not go too well when it comes out Matt's decision to sit on Verin's letter allowed the fighting in Caemlyn. Not saying either one is likely but Talamenes(spelling) has led the band in Matt's absence...

 

I've just realised that makes him another Mordred-parallel. When Arthur went abroad to fight, he left Mordred in charge. News reached Mordred that Arthur had been killed in the fighting so he took over. But Arthur was not dead.. and came home to find his position apparently usurped.

[Crusader12]

Brandon and RJ have said that Oliver is there for a reason other than a red-herring for Gaidal.

 

Can anyone give a link to where this comment or comments were made? I also thought Olver was going to turn into Gaidal somehow. I'd like to see the exact wording of the refutation of this so I can see if it was some slippery "Aes Sedai" statement that could mean something other than what it seems on the surface.

[FarShainMael]

Brandon and RJ have said that Oliver is there for a reason other than a red-herring for Gaidal.

 

Can anyone give a link to where this comment or comments were made? I also thought Olver was going to turn into Gaidal somehow. I'd like to see the exact wording of the refutation of this so I can see if it was some slippery "Aes Sedai" statement that could mean something other than what it seems on the surface.

 

For a good analysis of why Olver can't be GC, see Pinzarn's post (#6) on this thread:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/63913-olver-is-gaidal-cain/

 

Could someone else dig out the RJ/BS quote please..

 

Edited: OK, I've stopped being lazy:

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html

 

(thank you herid)

 

Also, see #11 on this thread:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/55445-gaidel-cain/

[mbuehner]

 

Daerid has also been out of the narrative for a long while - maybe he was suborned?

I don't think there is anything sinister in Daerid's absence. That's just BS not bothering to keep up with many minor characters that RJ introduced. A LOT of them dropped off and disappeared completely. Daerid is at least mentioned a couple of times. Many many others are simply gone. Just look at the Band only: Reimon, Carlomin and Edorion are never mentioned in tGS and ToM at all even though they were with Mat all that time and they used to be his regular drinking and gambling companions.

Daerid had roughly 1/2 the band with him, and he was supposedly heading for Carhein, while Talmanes went looking for Mat

Hence, the fact that he has disappeared could mean 1/2 the Band is MIA and is now possibly fighting for the Dark.

they are not MIA. Elayne did have a part of the Band sent to Cairhien. If Daerid was with that group then that's where he is. and in any case why would the fact that they are not recently mentioned mean that that they are fighting for the Dark?!

 

It's not clear from ToM that Daerid's group landed up in Andor at all. (Edit: Up above, I meant Daerid and his 1/2 of the band was supposedlty heading for Andor not Carhein, according to Talmanes when he found Mat in KoD) The 1/2 of the band Elayne sent to Carhein could be 1/2 of Talmanes' group that got to Caemlyn along with Mat, courtesy Verin. If Daerid has not arrived in Andor at all, he may have been Compelled by Roedran=Demandred (yes, that is also an underlying assumption) and hence his 1/2 of the band could end up fighting for the Dark.

Just a possible plotline since we're discussing ways in which mat could be betrayed. `

 

Half the band did get to Andor, was sent to Cairhien, and from there did get to the FOM- their arrival with the Cairhienen forces for povd. That doesn't prove Daerid was with them, but it would make a lot of sense.

[FarShainMael]

Just found a rather interesting item.

 

Here - for those of us who like foreshadowing - is something from Mat himself:

 

"I'll take a gateway gladly.. But you can't come, Perrin. Moiraine explained it in her letter. Only three can come, and I know already who they have to be." He hesitated. "Olver is going to bloody kill me for not taking him, you know."

[Rufae]

At the end of ToM, in Olver's POV, we see him thinking about how the Band thought him an innocent kid but Mat and the rest of the Band owed him. He also talked about going to *Finnland on his own.

 

Also, wouldn't Talmanes fit the desrciption of Morded better than Olver? He was left in charge of teh Band as Mat ran off to save Moiraine. Now battle is at hand and Mat is presumed dead....

[FarShainMael]

At the end of ToM, in Olver's POV, we see him thinking about how the Band thought him an innocent kid but Mat and the rest of the Band owed him. He also talked about going to *Finnland on his own.

 

Also, wouldn't Talmanes fit the desrciption of Morded better than Olver? He was left in charge of teh Band as Mat ran off to save Moiraine. Now battle is at hand and Mat is presumed dead....

 

See my post #42 above. But there's nothing in ToM epilogue about Mat being presumed dead.

[Rufae]

Also, in KoD, Rand said he sealed the waygate in Caemlyn. So how did the Trollocs get through? Is there a way to blast it out friom the inside or what?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also, in KoD, Rand said he sealed the waygate in Caemlyn. So how did the Trollocs get through? Is there a way to blast it out friom the inside or what?

 

Well that's the thing. We don't know, and the Light doesn't either. I assume that they have found a way.

 

Personally, I think it is weaving a hole in the Wards, Moggy talks about doing it when she is captured and IIRC, Egwene in ToM weaves a hole through the anti-eavesdropping ward.