LTT/Rand...Relating to The Soul/Body/Memories/Identity/Personality thiing.

[The Fisher King]

One thing that RJ mentioned alot - that I always enjoyed ever so very deeply - was the idea that just because some ''expert'' in the story (Moiraine, Aes Sedai, The Forsaken etc) said something did NOT neccesarily always make it true. They could be lying (well, not non-black ajah) or believing what they were saying but just plain WRONG!

 

Ive been frankly mystified by the amount of opinions I have seen since VOG in The Great Storm/Book 12 asserting that it is now clear that LTT was NOT real and that LTT definitely WAS a sign of Rand's break in sanity that he used as a crutch.

 

I dont get it and still don't believe it. There is NO evidence in VOG to support the theory that LTT was NOT real and Mr Sanderson has been VERY CLEAR in his refusal to reveal that truth one way or the other.

 

Many believers in LTT's 'existence' point to Semirahge in KOD. There is also a fascinating train of thought on the subject by Sammael in LOC.

 

Gang, in KOD, Semirahge was LYING!!!

 

I am more fascinated by this passage on LOC where Sammael is demanding that Graendal accept that Rand is Rand and NOT Lews Therin Reborn:

 

 

Al'Thor was not Lews Therin, but Al'Thor WAS Lews Therin reborn, as was Lews Therin himself had been the rebirth of that soul.

 

I dont know how many were around waaaay back in the recarts and usenet days with debates about ''Two Bodies-One Soul'' debates even spilling over into the sadly now long-abandoned FAQ.

 

But, its clear that each soul cannot neccesarily have its own personality or identity but CAN share two bodies. In other words, I see NOTHING in VOG/KOD - or since, for that matter - to claim that LTT was never real in Rand's head.

 

In fact, the old debates, as well as the WOT ''Rules'' concerning the Soul combined with Sammael's musing in FOH which I quoted above in italics seems to cement to me that LTT was probably VERY real.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

- Fish

[mb]

In subtitle you mention Sammael. Do not recall Sammael commenting about this.

 

I also had/have doubts about Lews Therin being taint/madness caused.

Mainly the memories (many scenes). Also, Rand tells in a POV that he was not good at drawing and that Lews Therin was; Winter's Heart.

[The Fisher King]

In subtitle you mention Sammael. Do not recall Sammael commenting about this.

 

I also had/have doubts about Lews Therin being taint/madness caused.

Mainly the memories (many scenes). Also, Rand tells in a POV that he was not good at drawing and that Lews Therin was; Winter's Heart.

 

mb, in answer to your query, the following is an exact quote from Sammael (which I also posted above) taken directly from a conversation he had with Graendal in LOC...I apologize for not having a page number. Im rereading LOC on my Kindle and it doesn't use page numbers.

 

 

Al'Thor was not Lews Therin, but Al'Thor WAS Lews Therin reborn, as Lews Therin himself had been the rebirth of that soul.

 

 

 

- Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

It's pretty simple...

 

Before Rand was going mad he had random thoughts and dreams that were LTT's. He would blurt out some random LTT knowledge or facts. As he started to go mad, all of these LTT memories began to coalesce under the guise of LTT's voice in Rand's head. This is pretty clearly implied, and it is flat out confirmed when Semirhage says he's mad. You can always find a way to argue against it, but sometimes the simplest and most obvious answers are the best. There is no hint that this has ever been anything else other than memories of a past life manifesting themselves as insanity from the taint.

[Terez]

Rand's very valid and personal reasons for rejecting those memories as his own also played a large part. He had to accept those memories before they could be properly integrated, and in addition, he had to face the guilt that led him to suicide in his past life.

[The Fisher King]

It's pretty simple...

 

Before Rand was going mad he had random thoughts and dreams that were LTT's. He would blurt out some random LTT knowledge or facts. As he started to go mad, all of these LTT memories began to coalesce under the guise of LTT's voice in Rand's head. This is pretty clearly implied, and it is flat out confirmed when Semirhage says he's mad. You can always find a way to argue against it, but sometimes the simplest and most obvious answers are the best. There is no hint that this has ever been anything else other than memories of a past life manifesting themselves as insanity from the taint.

 

 

And, since when do we trust the Forsaken unquestionably that what they say is the TRUTH and that they aren't lying?? ... I mean, they ARE the flaming FORSAKEN, after all, lol!!! ;)

 

 

- Fish

[The Fisher King]

Rand's very valid and personal reasons for rejecting those memories as his own also played a large part. He had to accept those memories before they could be properly integrated, and in addition, he had to face the guilt that led him to suicide in his past life.

 

 

Tez, you DO realize that you severely contradicted yourself right there, don't ya, lol??? ;)

[Terez]

I'm pretty sure I didn't. But perhaps you could explain what you mean instead of being cryptic and annoying?

[The Fisher King]

I'm pretty sure I didn't. But perhaps you could explain what you mean instead of being cryptic and annoying?

 

So which part did you find annoying? The alleged ''crypticness'' or your uncertainty concerning which part may have been potentially contradictory??

 

Alas:

 

Rand's very valid and personal reasons for rejecting those memories as his own also played a large part. He had to accept those memories before they could be properly integrated, and in addition, he had to face the guilt that led him to suicide in his past life.

 

 

The first part of your statement (unless I'm reading it wrong, and if you, I apologize - you'll have to clarify for me) seems to indicate a belief on your part that LTT was not ''real'' and was indeed a insanity-induced coping mechanism for Rand...however, your very last sentence indicates a very REAL existence for LTT in Third Age Rand's head. Remember, RAND didn't suicide in his past life - LTT did. Remember how the SOUL works IN RJ's WORLD!,,,Remember ''Two Bodies - One Soul.'' ... Comadrin was a real person. The only difference between Rand and Mat is that Mat REMEMBERS Comadrin and Rand HEARS LTT, but Lews Therin is not just a manifestation in Rand's head. He is real.

 

 

- Fish

[Suttree]

It's pretty simple...

 

Based on how heavily this topic has been debated over the years I wouldn't say simple really fits.

[sandoz12]

He is real.

 

Hopefully this thread won't turn into a discussion on what consists 'real'. Having lived with philosophy students means that I think I already know how any such conversation will go.

[Jimvzyl]

Using simple deduction post-ToM, we can take a few things into account.

 

Rand is clearly borderline mad (but has shiny protection now) - "spikes in his brain" from Nynaeve's attempt to delve his madness.

Now, if we look at other, even slightly mad, Ashaman, what do we see in terms of madness? Fear of the dark, Myrdraals watching, (im sure there are more, but I cant remember them at the moment)

So, if Naeff's madness wasnt as bad as Rands, in that Nynaeve could heal it and not Rands, then Rands symptoms would have to be far worse than Naeff's, atleast prior to VoG.

 

Signs of Rands madness.

 

Distrust - I still hold this to be simple paranoia over whats been done to him before, coupled perhaps with a small effect from Fains dagger wound and his Two Rivers stubborness. (I'm compelled to believe the two wounds that cancel each other out means that Rand is affected little by the distrust of Shadar Logoth. I believe Elaida, Valda etc were affected a lot more than Rand.)

 

LTT - The voice. If the voice is real and merely memory of his past life, then this is not madness.

 

I dont really pick up any evidence of Rands madness ASIDE from LTT. There would have to be something else if LTT wasnt a sign of Rands madness. Rand says himself in TGS i think, that he is grateful for the taint- as it gave him LTT which he plans on using to defeat the DO. Rand doesnt show signs of irrationality, no signs of decay. I would think the only other thing that might have made him seem mad is that he laughed to himself a hell of a lot. But in that case, Naeffs madness should be worse than Rands.

 

Therefore - I believe that LTT's resurgence as a voice is a clear display of madness. The actual memories of LTT are within Rands soul, able to be accessed as soon as Rand matured as the Dragon. You can knock it off to pure luck that Rands madness accessed those memories, and used them as an insane voice in his head, helping him in certain ways even though it was driving him even more mad, instead of him having an intense fear of squirrels, which would have been of little use in the box, or in finding Grandael etc etc.

 

I believe therefore that Rand had "plot madness" :)

[The Fisher King]

He is real.

 

Hopefully this thread won't turn into a discussion on what consists 'real'. Having lived with philosophy students means that I think I already know how any such conversation will go.

 

''Real'' as in a self-aware lifeforce that lives its own individual life complete with its own experiences. Mat Cauthon is ''real'' ... Madoc Comadrin is ''real'' ... Rand Al' Thor is ''real'' ... and so is the LTT in Rand's head (meaning that THAT LTT is the same LTT that lived before and killed his wife, created Drogonmount etc) and not a cpoing mechanism or a property of Rand's ''madness.''

 

There is NO evidence that will ever convince me that the above paragragh is wrong.

 

 

- Fish

[The Fisher King]

Using simple deduction post-ToM, we can take a few things into account.

 

Rand is clearly borderline mad (but has shiny protection now) - "spikes in his brain" from Nynaeve's attempt to delve his madness.

Now, if we look at other, even slightly mad, Ashaman, what do we see in terms of madness? Fear of the dark, Myrdraals watching, (im sure there are more, but I cant remember them at the moment)

So, if Naeff's madness wasnt as bad as Rands, in that Nynaeve could heal it and not Rands, then Rands symptoms would have to be far worse than Naeff's, atleast prior to VoG.

 

Signs of Rands madness.

 

Distrust - I still hold this to be simple paranoia over whats been done to him before, coupled perhaps with a small effect from Fains dagger wound and his Two Rivers stubborness. (I'm compelled to believe the two wounds that cancel each other out means that Rand is affected little by the distrust of Shadar Logoth. I believe Elaida, Valda etc were affected a lot more than Rand.)

 

LTT - The voice. If the voice is real and merely memory of his past life, then this is not madness.

 

I dont really pick up any evidence of Rands madness ASIDE from LTT. There would have to be something else if LTT wasnt a sign of Rands madness. Rand says himself in TGS i think, that he is grateful for the taint- as it gave him LTT which he plans on using to defeat the DO. Rand doesnt show signs of irrationality, no signs of decay. I would think the only other thing that might have made him seem mad is that he laughed to himself a hell of a lot. But in that case, Naeffs madness should be worse than Rands.

 

Therefore - I believe that LTT's resurgence as a voice is a clear display of madness. The actual memories of LTT are within Rands soul, able to be accessed as soon as Rand matured as the Dragon. You can knock it off to pure luck that Rands madness accessed those memories, and used them as an insane voice in his head, helping him in certain ways even though it was driving him even more mad, instead of him having an intense fear of squirrels, which would have been of little use in the box, or in finding Grandael etc etc.

 

I believe therefore that Rand had "plot madness" :)

 

 

Great post! I agree with so many of your points - especially your take on Rand's ''paranoia'' ... lock me in a box and beat me for days then see how ''trusting'' a fellow I am after that.

 

However, I do NOT agree with your last paragragh. I don't think that Rand is just making use of LTT memories - I think the LTT he hears in his head is an actual individual. I'll repaste what I said above:

 

'Real'' as in a self-aware lifeforce that lives its own individual life complete with its own experiences. Mat Cauthon is ''real'' ... Madoc Comadrin is ''real'' ... Rand Al' Thor is ''real'' ... and so is the LTT in Rand's head (meaning that THAT LTT is the same LTT that lived before and killed his wife, created Drogonmount etc) and not a cpoing mechanism or a property of Rand's ''madness.''

 

There is NO evidence that will ever convince me that the above paragragh is wrong.

 

 

- Fish

[sandoz12]

 

'Real'' as in a self-aware lifeforce that lives its own individual life complete with its own experiences. Mat Cauthon is ''real'' ... Madoc Comadrin is ''real'' ... Rand Al' Thor is ''real'' ... and so is the LTT in Rand's head (meaning that THAT LTT is the same LTT that lived before and killed his wife, created Drogonmount etc) and not a cpoing mechanism or a property of Rand's ''madness.''

 

There is NO evidence that will ever convince me that the above paragragh is wrong.

 

 

- Fish

 

Well I was going to debate this further but having read your last line realise there is simply no point:)

[alykyn]

Well..

 

Let's examine the facts.

 

1) Prior to actively channeling Rand never made ANY indication of

having any memories not his own and ever hearing LTT in his head.

 

2) Post actively channeling he:

 

a) Remembers memories of LTT

b) 'Hears' LTT talking to him.

 

3) Channeling Saidin is tainted and the taint causes madness.

 

4) Nynaeve knows what the taint looks like when it causes madness

and when she healed the taint, the person who was affected became

sane again.

 

5) After VOG Rand became 'sane', ie he no longer heard LTT ever again.

 

6) Nynaeve observed that there was something (the 'whiteness') that was

specifically countering each piece of taint that caused madness inside

Rand's mind.

 

Conclusion:

The facts are once he started channeling tainted Saidin he started going mad.

LTT was not 'real', but the memories and LTT were part of the madness. The

madness takes different forms for everyone, and for Rand the madness was that

he became in touch with his actual past life; something people who are reborn

are not supposed to remember. Once he was able to utilize the strange abilities

he received in VOG it cancelled out (but not removed the madness) thus integrating

him with his past life as LTT (among others).

[sandoz12]

Well..

 

Let's examine the facts.

 

1) Prior to consciously channeling Rand never made ANY indication of

having any memories not his own and ever hearing LTT in his head.

 

2) Post consciously channeling he:

 

a) Remembers memories of LTT

b) 'Hears' LTT talking to him.

 

3) Channeling Saidin is tainted and the taint causes madness.

 

4) Nynaeve knows what the taint looks like when it causes madness

and when she healed the taint, the person who was affected became

sane again.

 

5) After VOG Rand became 'sane', ie he no longer heard LTT ever again.

 

6) Nynaeve observed that there was something (the white stuff) that was

specifically countering each piece of taint that caused madness inside

Rand's mind.

 

Conclusion:

The facts are once he started channeling tainted Saidin he started going mad.

LTT was not 'real', but the memories and LTT were part of the madness. The

madness takes different forms for everyone, and for Rand the madness was that

he became in touch with his actual past life; something people who are reborn

are not supposed to remember. Once he was able to utilize the strange abilities

he received in VOG it cancelled out (but not removed the madness) thus integrating

him with his past life as LTT (among others).

 

Agree completely. I think you have made the case very well (far better than I could have) but as I alluded to previously no amount of evidence will make fish change his mind so this won't either. Despite it being a clear, compelling argument.

[Jimvzyl]

''Real'' as in a self-aware lifeforce that lives its own individual life complete with its own experiences. Mat Cauthon is ''real'' ... Madoc Comadrin is ''real'' ... Rand Al' Thor is ''real'' ... and so is the LTT in Rand's head (meaning that THAT LTT is the same LTT that lived before and killed his wife, created Drogonmount etc) and not a cpoing mechanism or a property of Rand's ''madness.''

 

There is NO evidence that will ever convince me that the above paragragh is wrong.

 

I don't think our arguments are mutually exclusive.

I can argue that the "life" of LTT's voice in Rands mind was 'brought about' by his madness and is therefore not the action of his madness but rather the effect of his madness.

The LTT voice could quite literally be a real person and a real connection between previous lives of the soul, perverted from its original intent (of guiding the dragon through memories) - and only accessible through and with the taint. Which is interesting if you consider that death is not beyond the DO's grasp. ahhhh :)

[alykyn]

Well..

 

Let's examine the facts.

 

1) Prior to consciously channeling Rand never made ANY indication of

having any memories not his own and ever hearing LTT in his head.

 

2) Post consciously channeling he:

 

a) Remembers memories of LTT

b) 'Hears' LTT talking to him.

 

3) Channeling Saidin is tainted and the taint causes madness.

 

4) Nynaeve knows what the taint looks like when it causes madness

and when she healed the taint, the person who was affected became

sane again.

 

5) After VOG Rand became 'sane', ie he no longer heard LTT ever again.

 

6) Nynaeve observed that there was something (the white stuff) that was

specifically countering each piece of taint that caused madness inside

Rand's mind.

 

Conclusion:

The facts are once he started channeling tainted Saidin he started going mad.

LTT was not 'real', but the memories and LTT were part of the madness. The

madness takes different forms for everyone, and for Rand the madness was that

he became in touch with his actual past life; something people who are reborn

are not supposed to remember. Once he was able to utilize the strange abilities

he received in VOG it cancelled out (but not removed the madness) thus integrating

him with his past life as LTT (among others).

 

Agree completely. I think you have made the case very well (far better than I could have) but as I alluded to previously no amount of evidence will make fish change his mind so this won't either. Despite it being a clear, compelling argument.

 

Thanks!

[alykyn]

''Real'' as in a self-aware lifeforce that lives its own individual life complete with its own experiences. Mat Cauthon is ''real'' ... Madoc Comadrin is ''real'' ... Rand Al' Thor is ''real'' ... and so is the LTT in Rand's head (meaning that THAT LTT is the same LTT that lived before and killed his wife, created Drogonmount etc) and not a cpoing mechanism or a property of Rand's ''madness.''

 

There is NO evidence that will ever convince me that the above paragragh is wrong.

 

I don't think our arguments are mutually exclusive.

I can argue that the "life" of LTT's voice in Rands mind was 'brought about' by his madness and is therefore not the action of his madness but rather the effect of his madness.

The LTT voice could quite literally be a real person and a real connection between previous lives of the soul, perverted from its original intent (of guiding the dragon through memories) - and only accessible through and with the taint. Which is interesting if you consider that death is not beyond the DO's grasp. ahhhh :)

 

 

See my long post before, I basically agree. LTT was not 'real' except the taint made him 'real'. No madness from the taint, no LTT.

[Terez]

Rand's very valid and personal reasons for rejecting those memories as his own also played a large part. He had to accept those memories before they could be properly integrated, and in addition, he had to face the guilt that led him to suicide in his past life.

 

 

The first part of your statement (unless I'm reading it wrong, and if you, I apologize - you'll have to clarify for me) seems to indicate a belief on your part that LTT was not ''real'' and was indeed a insanity-induced coping mechanism for Rand...however, your very last sentence indicates a very REAL existence for LTT in Third Age Rand's head. Remember, RAND didn't suicide in his past life - LTT did.

1) Rand's memories of his past life were very real. That doesn't mean that Lews Therin had a separate consciousness inside Rand's head.

2) Rand said they were not two men and never had been. Seeing as how he'd just warded his own mind from the taint, and his memories were integrated, he was probably more qualified to say at that point than he ever was.

3) Rand said Lews Therin was always him, and he was always Lews Therin.

 

Remember how the SOUL works IN RJ's WORLD!,,,Remember ''Two Bodies - One Soul.'' ...

Try not to be condescending, especially seeing as how you don't remember yourself. One soul, two personalities. Typically it really is that simple, because typically a person never remembers their past lives. So, certain soul traits are the same, but nurture is strong, so many things are different. Rand experienced a bit of a dichotomy when he started remembering, but by far the worst thing contributing to the problem was the nature of the memories and also Rand's current nurtured memories which tell him that Lews Therin is a monster.

 

Comadrin was a real person. The only difference between Rand and Mat is that Mat REMEMBERS Comadrin and Rand HEARS LTT, but Lews Therin is not just a manifestation in Rand's head. He is real.

No, the only difference is that Mat is not Comadrin reborn, and Mat isn't suffering from madness, and Mat also has no real motive to suppress Comadrin's memories (not that he remembers being Comadrin at all - but if he did, that would be my argument). Mat also remembers being Aemon before he ever visits the 'Finns, but Aemon doesn't talk to him in his head.

[anotherfingolfin]

meh, maybe it's because i'm from a culture where reincarnation is a normally held belief, the LTT-in-Rand never bemused me. i was like, ah, 'past-life regression', move along.

 

even the way it was resolved seemed quite logical (as much as logic has a place in these things). once he had his epiphany, and somewhat resolved the emotional issues plaguing him, he was able to accept those memories, integrate them, without letting his current personality getting overriden. seemed pretty simple to me.

[David Selig]

I really dislike it when people can't admit their theories were proven wrong despite clear evidence from the books. Just let it go and move on. What bigger evidence you want than "He knew — somehow — that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been." Add to that what we see from Rand in ToM and I really don't see how this can still be a debate.

[he who comes with a bong]

makes me laugh all the time the arguments ppl get into on here and in some ways all the diff things that are on here make me try not to think of any new ways to think of things on my own since ive been on here all the theorys kinda have ruined a little bit of the series for me

 

it is like i have lost the magic of the words the books used to move me to the depths of my being but now after reading all i can on here seems to me that anythign i think of thats going to to happen the way i think really doesnt and this probally has made no sense to any one im typing this up during the middle of a 3 day migraine that is making me not sensible and sorry about the long run on sentences as i dont belive in punctuation or spelling for that matter hahahah like i said my brains melting

[Ashaman Eric]

From where I'm sitting, he was a manifestation of the taint. But at the same time, yes he was real. He had the personality and memories of LTT coalesce into an avatar capable of thinking and acting like LTT.

 

To me it's a matter of semantics.

 

Really nerdy analogy, but the best I can come up with:

 

The soul is like a computer. The mind is like software. Rand's body hosted the Dragon's soul, which until recently was running both Rand's and LTT's (broken) software.

 

Rand's consciousness is no more or less real than LTT's. There's only one soul between them, they share it. And to me, that makes LTT as real as Rand.

 

Rand's perspective changed and madness went away when he accepted his place in the universe. In accepting his destiny he became more ta'veren than ever, which separated his mind from the taint and allowed both LTT and Rand to coexist harmoniously.